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FirePaladin
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posted May 19, 2020 08:59 PM |
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And in my country, something we call "șpaga" ("shpaga" or "bribery", in English), contributes as a variable in death cases. Declaring death from virus instead of heart attack, for example.
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2020 10:39 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
He's deflecting blame to everybody he can,
Yeah he does. And maybe this has to do with a press overwhelming negative who blames nobody else but Trump, 24/24, 7/7, right?
I mean, in France if someone goes on Television and says "Macron handled the Covid crisis as an idiot", they will cut asap or attack him for "hatred language". So for sure Macron does not need to blame anybody, he is never guilty of anything, the whole corpus is between him and opponents. While statistics show he handled much worse than Trump - number of deaths per capita, of tests produced by capita, of masks produced by capita and so on. Challenge this if you can.
When people manifest vs Merkel or Macron, the press paint them as alt-right. When people defend Trump, the press paint them as alt-right, see?
Your "press" just can't swallow that despite their 1/99 predictions on his election, he won and proved them they have no longer any manipulation power, their power is fictional from now.
So for sure now they try everyday to prove he is an anomaly, by all means. He IS the anomaly naturally produced by them being an anomaly in first place.
He is the well raised middle finger of those who wake early towards well-meaning soundbites from celebrities talking from their rarefied bubbles of pampered privilege.
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bloodsucker
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posted May 19, 2020 11:27 PM |
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Salamandre said:
He is the well raised middle finger of those who wake early towards well-meaning soundbites from celebrities talking from their rarefied bubbles of pampered privilege.
I agree, they wanted so much to stick that middle finger they shove the entire arm up their own asses, just look at Fred's stance on this, it's more important to be against the broken system then defend this or that program.
We had the same problem last elections, nowadays our parliament is full of deputies of alternative parties whose only conviction is that you have to scream loud.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 20, 2020 08:06 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Blizzardboy said:
He's deflecting blame to everybody he can,
Yeah he does. And maybe this has to do with a press overwhelming negative who blames nobody else but Trump, 24/24, 7/7, right?
Ah, so the poor guy is treated unfairly and has to shift blame to anyone available in order to be able to not be badly affected by all this negativity of the oh so malevolent media. Self defense.
Reminds me of these TV shows, you know, Veep and The Thick of It. Which, come to think of it, is fair. The Trump administration and the Meyer administration have a lot in common.
As someone said, our best weapon against all of this is common sense. Sadly, a lot of people are unarmed.
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Salamandre
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posted May 20, 2020 10:28 AM |
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Funny, 99% of the press unfairly criticizing a leader does not disturb you the less, but instead his reaction of punching back does. I am the opposite.
Because you know, there is Trump handling Covid, but also Trump handling economy, immigration, tariffs, wars, there is ton of positive material to talk about, yet 99% is about Covid - which btw you have yet to show me how he handled it worse than France, Italy, UK (ok, not Germany, on that we agree), to name the big guys.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 20, 2020 12:17 PM |
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When you are the president of a major state, there is no such thing as "unfair criticism". There is only justified/valid criticism or unjustified/invalid criticism.
Trump is actually not handling much at all and what he does or not cannot be compared to what Macron does in France. The US have a system like that in Germany, a federal one, where the governors of the States (in Germany: Ministerpräsident) have the say about, for example, lockdowns due to a general health threat. So Ministerpräsident Söder of Bavaria has basically the same competences than, say, Governor Cuomo of the State New York. THEY actually make the decisions (which look vastly different depending on State in the US).
Trump handles only the FEDERAL part, which includes, for example, the closing of federal borders (say, to Mexico or Canada), immigration rules and so on, he can declare risk zones. As the executive head of the federal government he may demand, for example, to lift lockdowns, but the governors, thankfully, don't have to follow.
Now, his actual task is a coordinating one. He should strive to make sure there is a common ground in all of the US, otherwise the measures of one State may be undermined by their neighbors doing something entirely different. This is, what went down in Germany, mostly. There ARE local differences, but there were conferences with Merkel and the Ministerpräsidents to make sure they were on roughly the same page. Which makes sense, if you think about it. It doesn't do, when Bavaria closes all holiday resorts and forbids mass events, when Saxonia doesn't, because then all the Bavarians will go to Saxonia to a concert and make a holiday there, coming back to Bavaria, infected or not, although there obviously ARE local differences, even in Germany.
He also should see to it that the federal government supports hot zones - say, New York or New Orleans: build a clinic, transfer docs from the military ... whatever means available to the fedgov, and all in conference with the Governors.
He also may take a look at what is actually necessary to have and demand a general production shift towards what is needed (which he did with regard to some medical stuff), but what is not his job is, telling everyone crap and that he has everything under control.
He - like Merkel - has actually a mediating and supporting role. He must look at the WHOLE, while the governors have to look at THEIR states - that's how I understand the US system which is similar to ours.
If you want to put Germany's relatively good situation on the system, then Germany is THE ONLY country the US can compare with and that comparison is not good for him (and them), since, let me repeat, the pandemic in the US is still in full swing - no one knows, how many casualties they will have. With currently 1.1 million still infected, even a moderate 5% rate would mean 150.000 casualties - if there won't be more infected which is basically a given.
Now - I don't think that it's due to the system, I think it's a combination. For one thing a) in Germany they (luckily) went after contacts of infected right away (from the first known case) and quarantined them which made for a much slower spread than basically everywhere else (same as in South Korea). b) - our health insurance system, which operates on a RELATIVELY high GENERAL standard if compared in this case with the US where it works only partially on a high standard and partially not at all (which is kind of bad in case of a pandemic). Considering that we missed basic protection gear and have a high infection rate within the medical personell, this could and should have been WAY better, since after SARS, a lot of emergency plans have been financed (but not followed through with).
However, what makes all excuses for all countries pretty meaningless is Event 201. Only 3 months before the outbreak, there was a large simulation presentation by John Hopkins and the Gates Foundation with a host of solid recommendations - basically a blueprint on what to do and how in such a case.
And what does Trump? Makes it a competition, dissing everyone including the WHO, trying to buy out researchers, knowing everything better, tweeting the common sense out of everyone ...
Anyway - I've said it from the beginning, but as it is, the US are just getting what they ordered.
And you can do me a favor and not ask any questions that demand long answers which won't make you think any different. Of you are so enamored with the current POTUS, you are beyond my capacity of understanding anyway.
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Salamandre
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posted May 20, 2020 01:19 PM |
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All was fine until the end, as I can formulate same - why bother when you display such hatred and bias.
Sure leaders should be criticized, but with Trump, both international and national press are only about criticizing, 7/7. At this point, no one at least objective can believe any longer on what is being reported.
And of course you can compare to France, is not comparing federal system to other, but leader behavior I was focusing on. Trump evoked the Defense Act to nationalize or force various business to produce masks and tests. Macron had hands and feet tied as EU prohibits doing that. Trump went on the fire front, spent everyday 1 hour and half doing press talk, informing, sure sometimes saying dumb things - he is no medical expert, but he WAS there. Macron read a script of half an hour once in two months. Trump displayed optimism, which people need during a catastrophe, Macron displayed morbidity and fatalism. This is.
If you still can't understand such basic things, then never run a business or more, leadership is not for you.
JollyJoker said:
And you can do me a favor and not ask any questions that demand long answers which won't make you think any different.
Well thats a strange request for a forum as I read your answers and I am ready to change my mind, based on your arguments.
But until now I ask apples, you answer bananas, so no.
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Salamandre
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posted May 20, 2020 01:36 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
And what does Trump? Makes it a competition
This is comical because I watch sometimes Trump's press things and it invariably goes same way, again and again:
Journalist : We are doing the worst in the world, what you have to say, potus?
POTUS : well thats not true, here facts, numbers, etc etc, we are doing better than many others
Journalist : why everything is for you a competition, Potus?
So yeah...
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JollyJoker
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posted May 20, 2020 01:44 PM |
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That is complete nonsense.
Quote:
Trump went on the fire front, spent everyday 1 hour and half doing press talk, informing, sure sometimes saying dumb things - he is no medical expert, but he WAS there. Macron read a script of half an hour once in two months. Trump displayed optimism, which people need during a catastrophe
Trump denied there was anything wrong. let's not forget this - after all, under his leadership, "catastrophes" don't happen. He doesn't display optimism - he displays ignorance and aggressiveness, looking for someone, something to blame. People need fricking DISCIPLINE in a catastrophe and leadership who knows what they are doing and aren't counterproductive by making people, for example, buy and use untried meds.
It is TRUMP who hugs the media coverage. There are spokespersons for that job - the president is expected to work, not to stroke his ego. Which is what Trump is constantly doing. He has NO expertise whatsoever (but tells everyone that he takes a malaria-med, for example), that would help in any way, he has no authority over the States's dealing with the pandemic, and he just tells people a load of nonsense with the whole purpose of looking good, not taking any fall for anything, and he isn't doing what he COULD do, and that is allocating fed resources to places in need and coordinating efforts with state governors.
He's just concerned about HIS OWN reputation, nothing else.
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FirePaladin
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posted May 20, 2020 01:58 PM |
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And I thought Trump intentionally makes himself look bad and stupid.
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Salamandre
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posted May 20, 2020 02:11 PM |
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Hold on, lets see point by point
JollyJoker said:
He doesn't display optimism - he displays ignorance and aggressiveness
No, its you who choose to translate optimism into ignorance because you hate the guy. People need hope.
JollyJoker said:
People need fricking DISCIPLINE
No, what they most need now is testing and masks, and USA is doing very well.
JollyJoker said:
by making people, for example, buy and use untried meds.
You mean Chloroquine, discovered in 1934 and since in use, with perfect knowing of all side effects, is "untried"?
JollyJoker said:
Which is what Trump is constantly doing. He has NO expertise whatsoever (but tells everyone that he takes a malaria-med, for example)
So? Whats your point? he can take whatever he likes if his doctor, which HAS the expertise, doesn't object. And he didn't.
ALSO
JollyJoker said:
not taking any fall for anything,
Show me ONE single leader who apologized for bad handling of the crisis. ONE.
JollyJoker said:
and that is allocating fed resources to places in need and coordinating efforts with state governors.
yeah sure
Bananas.
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posted May 20, 2020 02:27 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
And I thought Trump intentionally makes himself look bad and stupid.
That's an understandable error.
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FirePaladin
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posted May 20, 2020 02:34 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
FirePaladin said:
And I thought Trump intentionally makes himself look bad and stupid.
That's an understandable error.
But you can't be sure of anyone's intentions, though.
@Salamandre
Lucky you've never seen where masks are produced.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 20, 2020 02:36 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Hold on, lets see point by point
[snip]
I suppose you just want to provoke me into offending you or your intelligence with that spam.
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bloodsucker
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posted May 20, 2020 02:53 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Bananas.
Can I get mine with a topping of Chocolate Ice-cream?
No one will ever accuse me of loving Trump but Brioche Nancy is handling the crisis pretty well, for her donors.
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FirePaladin
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posted May 20, 2020 02:55 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Salamandre said:
Bananas.
Can I get mine with a topping of Chocolate Ice-cream?
No one will ever accuse me of loving Trump but Brioche Nancy is handling the crisis pretty well, for her donors.
Plus Vanilla.
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Salamandre
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posted May 20, 2020 03:33 PM |
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bloodsucker
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posted May 20, 2020 04:05 PM |
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Not me, I'm portuguese. But I do understand that middle finger, unfortunately he is no Maximus Decimus Meridius, for as much as you would like it to be.
"I don't know what I've had done if Ice-Cream was not invented", take this out of context if you can.
If I had the power to do it, I would definitely shoot Trump but Nancy I would crucify with a large board under the feet (so it takes longer).
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Salamandre
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posted May 20, 2020 04:23 PM |
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Not sharing collective hysteria doesn't equal blind admiration.
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Blizzardboy
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posted May 21, 2020 05:25 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Now - I don't think that it's due to the system, I think it's a combination. For one thing a) in Germany they (luckily) went after contacts of infected right away (from the first known case) and quarantined them which made for a much slower spread than basically everywhere else
It wasn't luck. It was a conscious decision by somebody/some people who knew what they were doing.
It seems that New York started spreading very, very early and it would have been very difficult to stop a mass spread. For much of the country, it was sloppy and avoidable and Trump admin failed on a federal level because he had the ability to make testing happen sooner and he was useless, other than maybe suspending borders which is his personal niche.
I remember reading that Merkel was on board with getting testing rolling very early (like early February or something) and that saved a lot of people. After a certain point that's no longer very effective because the curve slopes upward to a degree that is unmanageable.
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