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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1634 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 ... 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 ... 1400 1600 1634 · «PREV / NEXT»
natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted March 23, 2016 08:30 PM

JJ, when I laid my rules I told them no GM offence+ GM defence but I don`t know if it is implemented.

7 magic schools in a random system indeed

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Minastir
Minastir


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 23, 2016 08:35 PM

I feel like devs are just wasting their and our time trying to fix H7.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted March 23, 2016 08:37 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 20:37, 23 Mar 2016.

Well if they do not try to fix it they will have wasted their time making h7.
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted March 23, 2016 08:44 PM

At this point if the changes mess up the gameplay too much then there is not much point in making addons. They should go straight to standalone expansions. That way the game won't be associated with the abandon-ware that is H7.
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airodinamic
airodinamic


Hired Hero
posted March 23, 2016 09:02 PM

Minastir said:
I feel like devs are just wasting their and our time trying to fix H7.


I think no... after all there are plenty of peoples who pre-ordered or buy the game after launch. i thin they deserve to get the game they payed for. who knows maybe they will shape the game better after few patches and hopefully a expansion  

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 23, 2016 09:20 PM

natalka said:
7 magic schools in a random system indeed

Once again we come back to the main point of Erwin and his despicable lore mutilating gameplay.
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Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted March 23, 2016 09:35 PM

Sometimes, i find myself thinking that all the things i hear from the developing team are in fact publicity stunts so that when the expansion comes out, there will be so many things we asked in there that the excitement will be even greater after such disappointment.

Then i remember i am a realist and take this little thought, put it back into the optimistic drawer and keep going with my life.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 23, 2016 09:43 PM

Galaad said:
natalka said:
7 magic schools in a random system indeed

Once again we come back to the main point of Erwin and his despicable lore mutilating gameplay.

I can't blame him for that one, it's the system implementation that is bad. Multiple elements under 4 magic skills is pretty possible and I'm pretty sure the lore would have no objections.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 23, 2016 09:49 PM

Seven schools is unneeded and additional difficulties, then if Team can't implement something working it only adds to the problem yes.
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Valen-Teen
Valen-Teen


Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
posted March 23, 2016 09:57 PM

What should they do with dragon-worship?
Just make Elemental (earth/fire/air/water), Light, Dark and Prime schools?)
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted March 23, 2016 09:57 PM

Elvin said:
I can't blame him for that one, it's the system implementation that is bad. Multiple elements under 4 magic skills is pretty possible and I'm pretty sure the lore would have no objections.


why in the name of god would you logically want to have more spell schools than you have skills assigned to those schools, or vice versa, unless it's purely to satisfy Erwin's Old Testament of Ashan,
seriously that would be such retarded forced design and doesn't make any sense how that could or why it should happen to me lol
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 23, 2016 10:06 PM

All beside the point.

The point is, as soon as you get the message "7 schools of magic are Ashan law" you must know that this will be apivotal point in your game desihn because it's obvious that it will be difficult to implement.

Or should be obvious.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted March 23, 2016 10:07 PM

airodinamic said:
I think no... after all there are plenty of peoples who pre-ordered or buy the game after launch. i thin they deserve to get the game they payed for. who knows maybe they will shape the game better after few patches and hopefully a expansion  


The people who preordered the game deserve nothing (no offence). There were plenty of hints not to do that with H7 (tbh, preordering is something I do not approve at all, but that is a little off topic).

As for buying after launch, in a way you knew what was the game like. There were 2 beta testings, from which you could learn about game's pros and cons. So I do not think that people deserce the better game just because they bought it.

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to be smart***, I was in the same position with buying H6, I just learned my lesson then.
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"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 23, 2016 10:11 PM

What I meant was, I don't find Erwan fully responsible for that mess up. That the system could have worked despite the.. complications.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 23, 2016 10:32 PM

7 magic schools could've worked given the right context (controlled randomness) with the right distribution and acquisition of spells.
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The Young Traveler

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted March 23, 2016 10:54 PM

JollyJoker said:
All beside the point.

The point is, as soon as you get the message "7 schools of magic are Ashan law" you must know that this will be apivotal point in your game desihn because it's obvious that it will be difficult to implement.

Or should be obvious.

This. 7 schools present an unnecessary restriction when it comes to design the game. It's not that it is imposible to make 7 schools work, but it already makes the job 10x harder. It is silly.

Then again, it's not like the rest of the game mechanics have been given too much thought, are they.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 23, 2016 11:12 PM

It's not silly.

The schools in itself are not unreasonable. I'd have no problem to create 12 spells per school.
When you consider the different models - H2: no schools; H3: 4 schools; H4: 5 schools, H5 4 schols: the H4 model with 5 schools was great, which is more than the 4 in 3 and 5. So going 7 isn't unreasonable.

At that point you may realize, that the number of schools is irrelevant if you have some kind of control over the mage guilds, being that you can determine the schools you get or the spells.

However, what you must realize is that when you increase the number of possible magic schools a hero can have - than you have to increase the number of possible SKILLS to get as well. Designing the skill system so that you can be doone with it with three skills is the worst possible scenario (you could be able to fill a hero with less than 3 skills, but that would be ridiculous considering you want racials).

So the natural/obvious idea would be: 7 magic skills: ok, let's make a skill system with only 2 skill levels and 2 abilities. Sounds really crappy - but as a start.

Right?


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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 23, 2016 11:19 PM

Not being able to change existing Heroes due to the way the campaigns are made is the biggest pile of bovine manure I've heard in a while. The only thing this does is that it adds a different task to the list of things to work through: rebalance the campaigns as needed to account for the random system they should have implemented in the first place. The nature of these balance changes could be minute or massively map-altering, but that's the price for ignoring all the suggestions of a proper skill system to begin with.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 23, 2016 11:22 PM
Edited by Stevie at 23:23, 23 Mar 2016.

A system with 7 magic schools where the player can choose to exclude 2 and out of the 5 left emphasize the drop chance of 2 is what I would've considered a start. You'd have a meaningful choice to make that gives the player some control over which magic schools he'd be able to learn. Of course, you'd still have to think how you enable the hero to learn skills since they go hand in hand, but that shouldn't be too big of a deal.

It's more than manageable and you don't lose the diversity. Win-win, competent developers could probably come up with something even better.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 23, 2016 11:40 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 23:47, 23 Mar 2016.

There are two sides to the problem. One is the number of school in itself - which causes problems with random skill system and random spells in guilds (low chance of getting the spells you want). That can be coped with like Stevie describes.

The main problem with the 7-school system as I see it is that you don't get a significant difference between the schools. That was partially a conscious (and imo. catastrophic!) game design choice, but it does get significantly harder to find a strong profile for each school when you have that many.

On the bottom line, however, the H7 system fails horribly for me, not because of the number of schools, but because at least 6 of the schools are virtually identical in what they can, effectively rendering the whole concept of schools obsolete and thus failing by the very nature of how the schools are designed.
Valen-Teen said:
What should they do with dragon-worship?
Just make Elemental (earth/fire/air/water), Light, Dark and Prime schools?

That would be one solution.

Another would be creating fewer schools, that each span a set of elements, so that you have each element present in several of the schools and each school gives access to several elements (with possibilities for specialization). That could be something like:

Destruction: Fire, Air, Dark (direct damage spells)
Creation: Water, Earth, Light (healing and summoning effects)
Transformation: Fire, Earth, Light (buffs and debuffs)
Illusion: Water, Air, Dark (mind effects)

This is just an example, the distribution could well be different, but point is there are several ways to incorporate the 7 elements into a 4-school scheme. I haven't included Prime here, Prime could be a special group of spells that work with all schools.
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What will happen now?

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