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Petiknight
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 05, 2016 09:31 AM |
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Hi, i just want to express my opinions about H6, and H7.
what i liked:
H6:
-adventure map graphics, creature graphics, and dynamic battles
however i missed some anti aliasing
-i liked the upgradeable dynasty weapons in campaign, i think its good idea to make upgradable items, which gives you specific spell, but only in campaign
-area control, however i would add a lot of fort upgrades, different spells only for fort sieges, and diversity between faction fort abilities
-liked the achievements some of them was hard to make
-Boss battles
-art style, however I dont like the color themed factions
-sanctuary as some fresh and new faction
-a lot of crature abilities, sometime too much
didnt like: boring Game of the Thrones inspired family drama story, childish dialogboxes.
-repetitive battles,
-few skills and spells, no randomness
-limited resources
-to much teleporting,
-AI
-bugs and crashes
-boring Hero main skills
-conflux, to be online requirement
-townscreens
-color themed factions
-only 6 factions
-no alternative creature upgrades
H7:
liked:
-more resources
-caravans
-some of the art maybe 10% of creatues
-tiggered adv. map objects /bridge etc../
-area control
-better townscreens than H6
-warmachines
disliked:
-I imagined better visuals, and graphics, thats why i couldnt so much enjoy the game...
-H7 art, reused assets, graphic style, adventure map graphics, incoherency of UI etc..
-boring skill trees, even with random skillwheel
-boring creature abilities, Hero abilities
-involving the community into the development, they didnt keep all the promises
-townscreens -wanted to see stunning 3d townscreens
-campaign story
-again UI
-repetitive battles
-AI improved, but still bad
-bugs, memory leak etc...
-only 7 factions
-no alternative creature upgrades
-reused assets from H6, icons creature art, etc...
Ok right now i got so many things in my mind. Maybe i missed something. Well i prefer the game in 3D, as I like stunning visuals in games, but i am techfan and i have a good computer. I understand also people who like 2d, and have old rig. I hope i didnt offended any of you guys this is only my opinion.
Well for me H7 its a real back step, again no offense, because I had too much expectations, to get a brilliant and interesting game, with some new mechanics as well...not what we got...
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 05, 2016 09:58 AM |
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Brukernavn said:
I was thinking about things like:
1) Stronger focus on one main hero, insted of many heroes
2) Story-driven campaigns and maps
3) Multiple side quests and backtracking over the same map
4) Stronger focus on kingdom/areas
5) Removal of randomness
1) You get the highest amount of "main" heroes in H7, unlike only one per campaign in H7
2) Previous maps were also based on stories, on the other hand H6 maps were being done without knowing the story
3) There are not many in H7
4) true
5) That is true against H5, it was as random as possible (H7 has some random elements too - spells, skillwheel)
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 06, 2016 01:41 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 01:56, 06 Sep 2016.
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Brukernavn said:
A reply within a reply, this is like something out of Inception 
I was thinking about things like:
- Stronger focus on one main hero, insted of many heroes
- Story-driven campaigns and maps
- Multiple side quests and backtracking over the same map
- Stronger focus on kingdom/areas
- Removal of randomness
If they started with KB instead of Heroes, I think the end result would be a better game, but that's just how I imagine it.
Mods are allowed to distort reality every now and then - as long as you don't look like Leonardo di Caprio 
Interesting analysis, some of those points I had never thought of before:
- Is there really a stronger focus on a main hero? I have been playing Heroes the same way since H3. And H7 feels like it has less focus on the main hero than H6 & H5 due to the Governor abilities (it is often a good idea to develop a 2ndary "governor"-type hero).
- Why is a story-driven campaign bad if it is well-made?
- Multiple side quests are fine with me, backtracking however not. And there was a lot of backtracking in H6 and H7 campaigns, which I found tedious.
- The stronger focus on areas is a good change in my opinion (I prefer the H7 version more than the unforgiving one-town-controls-all-mines H6 version). This by the way is not related to King's Bounty at all, so I do not see the resemblance.
- About randomness, it is difficult to find the perfect balance. H6 was waaaay too predictable, H5 was random enough, and H7 is on its way to an ok level of randomness.
Galaad said:
-3D vs 2D, can't believe of opening this again, but OBJECTIVELY, you see better on a 2D map, punkt schluss.
- Magic schools  http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40444&PID=1331267#focus
- Reducing resources dumbed down creeping considerably, since you had to aim for only ONE type.
- How diverse is a lineup yes it is taste, my taste goes towards NWC's vision.
- Color coding makes sense in a speed game like Starcraft, not TBS lmao, but you can like it for cosmetics and that is subjective.
- Flanking is nice concept but implementation needs to hold water, JJ made some good points on the subject, unfortunately I can't find them to redirect you but they're here.
So, as I said. Purely subjective.
- 2D vs 3D: I can follow battles much better on 3D, as I can turn the camera around and see the battle from the viewpoint I want to. Moreover, the battle looks more realistic and not like tic-tac-toe.
- Magic schools: I don't think the spell selection for each of the 7 schools is shallow. Quite on the contrary, having a lot of options for magic schools is better than having only a few (in H7 you can combine 2 schools without having to invest too much in each one due to the multiplying +4 Magic mechanic on Expert level).
- Amount of resources: I find 4 too few and 7 too many. With 4 the game is too repetitive and with 7 too random.
- How diverse is a line-up: I prefer a racial-based line-up with a bit of diversity inside.
- Color-coding makes my army feel like an army and not a random gathering of superheroes. So I think it is good as long as it is not overdone (e.g. yes to H7 Dungeon, no to Shades of Purple).
- Flanking opens up a lot of tactical options in battle and therefore makes fighting much less boring than it was before. Moreover, the racial skill of Dungeon is based on flanking and it is executed quite well.
See? Subjective. Punkt, Schluss.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 06, 2016 08:04 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
- 2D vs 3D: I can follow battles much better on 3D, as I can turn the camera around and see the battle from the viewpoint I want to. Moreover, the battle looks more realistic and not like tic-tac-toe.
Have you heard of a thing called 'real-time combat'?
I've heard it's pretty realistic.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 06, 2016 09:08 AM |
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Hopeless.
____________
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 06, 2016 09:43 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
- 2D vs 3D: I can follow battles much better on 3D, as I can turn the camera around and see the battle from the viewpoint I want to. Moreover, the battle looks more realistic and not like tic-tac-toe.
This is not even arguable, it depends on how much people want to invest of their time in a game. Same will play it online, so the time factor becomes capital, thus interface and actions must fit. is not a surprise that the widely acclaimed fan made HD mod for H3 deals with all actions, battle and adventure map included, reducing their time to the minimum. Do you know that H3 turns online vary between 2 and 4 minutes for each player? Then H5 required up to 20 minutes, for each player. But same actions are performed.
So people just having fun and discovering games will find all the features you afore mentioned nice and cool. People who really like a game and will try to play it online and on a constant base, will realize that all the actions you mention, as "see the battle from all points", rotate and whatever are worthless actions, as seeing the ass of a monster does not make him more powerful nor your strategy more inspired.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 09:57 AM |
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You are wasting your breath, since H7 isn't really working in MP anyway (yet?), what with the out-of-sync issues.
And what you lose in time to play with the vision controls you win back due to the no-brainer gameplay. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 06, 2016 10:03 AM |
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And btw, for people who browse Steam and GoG, a serious percentage of recent games proposed are in 2D. I don't know how much they sell, but the majority of comments are enthusiast, probably because when someone takes the risk to design in retro mode, he has some valuable and creative ideas behind.
For example, Curious expedition
Graphics 1990 type. 74 Mo size, lol.
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Era II mods and utilities
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 06, 2016 11:06 AM |
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btw please take care not to assume that content isn't the problem and the game would have sold or reviewed significantly better without bugs and bad optimisation,
that is pure speculation without sources, if you look at the reviews (both professional and Steam) there is a recurring theme that even despite the technical problems, the game is considered boring or dull at its core, just not a fun game, and cheap or shoddy, with very subpar graphics, many things that make no sense or are poorly designed, and terrible AI (which is not a mere bug, any more than bad writing is a bug) lol
that is the sentiment in a sizeable portion of the existing reviews, not even to speak of everyone who neither reviewed or bought it, (massive 84% audience drop off in sales since Heroes 6 on Steam), and the sheer apathy throughout the internet, there is very very limited discussion of this game outside of Heroes fan forums like this and even here most of it is overwhelmingly negative,
in conclusion that's not holding water, please hold to the facts,
there isn't anywhere close to a majority of potential buyers saying the game is a great jewel tarnished by bugs, indeed many potential buyers are either stressing it's fundamentally bad, or are saying nothing, or are simply too vague to tell (someone complaining about bugs in their review, doesn't automatically mean they would enjoy it without the bugs) lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 11:41 AM |
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Yeah, that's what I tried to point out on Steam as well.
Thread named "Horrible..." has been deleted, by the way.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 11:48 AM |
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Eg.: No Mans Sky scored 2.7 on metacritics. Is it a reason not to buy it? I don't think so.
Trial by Fire scored 5.7.
Based on (H)7 reviews  - but I wonder why only 3 is shown in the list.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 06, 2016 12:16 PM |
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Bitula said:
Eg.: No Mans Sky scored 2.7 on metacritics. Is it a reason not to buy it? I don't think so.
Trial by Fire scored 5.7.
Based on (H)7 reviews - but I wonder why only 3 is shown in the list.
if you're addressing me or trying to counter me, not sure what you're even on about there sorry, bit of a non sequitur,
I'm responding with arguments to the claim that the game is a great diamond in the rough which would have been very successful and popular without the nasty bugs,
you can go and buy it if you want or buy ten copies for all I care, all I am saying is, sure it may have been more appealing for some without the bugs, but let's not stretch or distort the "what ifs" like that to suit our purposes, that's a race to the bottom lol
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 06, 2016 12:48 PM |
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In general, bugs means lack of time, both for testing and fixing. I don't see how a game can be good if not tested nor fixed. Maybe some people think ideas can make a good game, but no, they don't.
Stevie's guide to a great game doesn't mean Stevie made a good game.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 06, 2016 03:29 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 16:17, 06 Sep 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
You are wasting your breath, since H7 isn't really working in MP anyway (yet?), what with the out-of-sync issues.
And what you lose in time to play with the vision controls you win back due to the no-brainer gameplay.
True. The game is working in MP (I haven't faced any serious issues yet in LAN and Hotseat), but it is definitely not balanced - so MP at the moment is a so-so experience (we still play it a lot, but we mostly rush Magic and Warfare builds).
Verriker said:
in conclusion that's not holding water, please hold to the facts,
there isn't anywhere close to a majority of potential buyers saying the game is a great jewel tarnished by bugs, indeed many potential buyers are either stressing it's fundamentally bad, or are saying nothing, or are simply too vague to tell (someone complaining about bugs in their review, doesn't automatically mean they would enjoy it without the bugs) lol
Your "conclusion" is pure speculation.
I browsed through at least 50 negative reviews before buying the game (and I did that twice: both at release and when ToF was added) and most of them focused on the bugs and technical issues of the game. Of course people won't claim that the game is a "tarnished jewel" - it was so damn broken they could probably not even play it without cursing every 5 minutes. If I had made the mistake to buy the game at release, I am quite sure that my review would also have been negative.
My personal experience is that the game right now (patch 2.1) is both playable and enjoyable - and in my case also highly addictive, more so than H5 and (much) more than H6. It is fine if you don't like it, but just because there is a popular opinion among HC users, it does not mean that it is a fact or universal truth.
EDIT:
@JollyJoker: I understand the point you are trying to make. It is however one thing to have a buggy game and a totally different thing to have a game that is both buggy and crashes on startup and crashes in-game and has non-animated cut scenes so on. I would not have been able to get "captivated" by a game like this (regardless if good or not) and I am sure this applies to many others - so the negative reviews at that time were absolutely warranted.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 03:46 PM |
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Generally, an intolerable amount of bugs leads to a SLIGHTLY lower score with releases of major games, because 1) the bigger reviewers mostly get early versions, with developers ensuring them, that those bugs will of course be fixed soon(TM), and 2) reviewers like to point out the POTENTIAL of a game.
You'd have to dig really deep to find a potentially great game that got devastating reviews because of bugs.
In my opinion bugs will always be annoying, but the better the gameplay, the more will reviewers say something along the lines of "I can't wait to play this again when the gameplay is not marred by bugs".
Didn't happen with H7, sorry.
Instead - if the game is NOT ONLY buggy, but, let's say, not immediately captivating, and the reviewer is feeling like working through the game, waiting for something that eventually feels great and so on, bugs will be even more annoying: you lose progress or cannot continue or didn't get the deserved reward for your doings - and the idea to start all over again seems appaling, THEN the bugs are really adding insult to injury.
Bugs are also an easy excuse for really down-scoring a game you don't like, but cannot actually put your finger upon the reasons why.
I also think, that H7 does comparatively well when you just look at the campaigns. If it was ONLY about campaigns, H7 might just well be the best game of the last three versions, if you can live with the bad AI.
But obviously that doesn't mean a lot, since campaigns aren't really what makes the game a good one; following scripted events isn't really playing a strategy game.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 06, 2016 04:16 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 16:17, 06 Sep 2016.
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er how do you figure my conclusion is pure speculation mate, that we can't just blame the bugs and the optimization for the bad reviews and sales, that isn't a matter of me speculating, that is me saying we can't know what's in every potential buyer's head so it's anti-speculation lol
I also agree with you that nobody's opinion is a universal truth, I never said it is, that is actually what I am trying to get at myself mate, don't forget your statement on the previous page which is stated matter-of-factly,
SoilBurn said:
If the game had been released in a technically acceptable state, it would have had better reviews than H6. It is the amount of bugs and the lacking optimization (RAM issues, slow startup) that caused the bad reviews e.g. on Steam, not the content of the game itself.
that is your personal opinion but presented as a factual statement, I disagree with that,
bear in mind there are over 1,100 negative reviews on Steam alone, it's completely anecdotal because you can pluck out 50 reviews fixating on bugs and I can pluck out 50 fixating on other issues, point is the bugs aren't necessarily the only issue, we can't just sweep every other criticism under the carpet just because it's all subjective, because even if it is subjective, most reviewers subjectively disliked the developers' choices lol
the only clear and solid facts we have is that the game was received negatively overall by the majority of reviewers and is selling very badly, so definitely something is wrong, I am merely saying let's not make a convenient scapegoat out of the bugs when many people also criticize many aspects of the core game and design lol
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 04:36 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
Moreover, the battle looks more realistic and not like tic-tac-toe.
Napoleon didn't rotate camera in battles he won.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 06, 2016 04:38 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 16:42, 06 Sep 2016.
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btw bear in mind there is actually such a thing as bad or incoherent design, it's not an objective matter but it's similar to bad writing, obviously the quality of all writing is technically subjective yes, but most people tend to agree what bad writing is when they see it, it just doesn't follow practices people tend to enjoy or find stimulating lol
for instance, a Dostoevsky translation filled with Homer Simpson spelling and grammar errors (bugs lol) certainly doesn't mean Dostoevsky's novel is rotten to the core, if you remove the errors/bugs it will probably be great,
however, if I try to write a novel but it has a very cliched or simpleton plot, untinteresting and one dimensional characters, horrible pacing, or lacks continuity with every chapter is written in a completely different style for no apparent reason, and it's panned, that's considered bad writing and it's fine to say the novel is bad, I can't really just say it's all subjective or that it will be a masterpiece if I correct the spelling and grammar, that won't hold much water as a piece of artistic criticism lol
for Heroes, I think the best ever example of bad design is Heroes 6, where on one hand Erwin wanted to hurry up the adventure game by bringing in area of control and streamlining resources to reduce micromanagement for players, while on the other hand he gave every faction easily accessible resurrection abilities in battle, which only increased player micromanagement of battles by 10000% and completely cancelled out the other decision, games arguably became longer than ever because you are playing cat and mouse crap to keep all your creatures alive lol
that's the game fighting with itself, like two completely inconsistent chapters scrawled in your novel, and there are many similar examples in Heroes 7 too, Jolly Joker has made lists of them lol
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 06, 2016 04:39 PM |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 04:55 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Maybe some people think ideas can make a good game, but no, they don't.
Maybe you meant that good ideas alone can't make a good game, because otherwise they are mandatory in the process of creating one.
Salamandre said:
Stevie's guide to a great game doesn't mean Stevie made a good game.
Still a good guide 
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
