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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 02:54 PM |
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In combat, you have an action with your hero to perform per turn, so it inevitably boils down to either hitting once to kill 10 pixies or casting a spell to kill 100. That's just to say how invariably better is to have something to cast, be it warcries or magic. The fact that as a might hero your spellpower and knowledge stats would be poor is not enough to offset that, especially since having learned a magic skill already increases the power of those spells by quite a margin. In other words, it doesn't matter if you have 0 spellpower with a might hero, you would still want Expert or Master in at least one school of magic because it's more advantageous to cast a spell than to hit with a normal attack when the actual combat happens.
Of course, you raise some good points with regards to other skills that give passives, and it's fair that it's better to have more passives than actives, but it's never better to have only passives and no actives. That's why it's been speculated all along that the best skill build a hero could have regardless of being might or magic is one magic skill for casting and the rest full in passive skills.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 02:59 PM |
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*Sigh*
Look, Warcries (in the current system) are EITHER OP OR UP, but NEVER balanced.
Why is that?
For one thing all Heroes, Might or Magic will get points in Power and Spirit, be it randomly at level-up, by visiting map objects or by artifact, so they DO HAVE the capability to cast spells.
There are also spells to be learned for free in shrines, plus you'll build mage guilds anyway, because you need them as prerequisites for other stuff.
That in turn means, within the current limits of what a might hero is able to learn in magic skills, most of the time a might hero is well advised to learn a magic skill - thankfully and ridiculously enough enough, with favored and natural schools (which are of course those the might heroes can learn) it's also no problem whatsoeve for might heroes to do so. Failing to do so, on the other hand, means a voluntary sacrifice of your points in Mana and Spirit, and why would anyone do this?
Now - if you CAN cast spells: why pick War Cries? Answer: Makes no sense - with one exception: if a Warcry can be more powerful than a spell (and in that case it helps that you can spam it cost-free). Otherwise, not even Mana shortage is a reason to go for them because you still have the hero attack.
If I'm not completely wrong, there are also artifacts that come with a spell (you can cast it once in battle) and spell scrolls, and since you have only ONE action per turn, for War Cries to make sense to invest into they would have to be overpowered, ADDING and AIDING might heroes over and above their inferior casting abilities.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 03:07 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:10, 24 Mar 2016.
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@ChrisD,
I'll go ahead and post these observations of mine back in the day of how mastery level was more than enough to make magic worthwhile even given very low spellpower (Link):
Stevie said:
I think you underestimate just how powerful mastery levels are. It's true that abilities enhance spells to have more interesting effects, like AOE and whatnot, but that doesn't give them the power that mastery gives. Not even close. A spell's mastery is nothing to scoff at.
In fact, let me give you a quick example.
Yasir with starting 3 Magic, can cast a Fortune spell at Unskilled for 13 Destiny;
I get level 6, and now with 6 Magic he can cast a Fortune spell at:
- Unskilled for 16 Destiny;
- Novice for 22 Destiny;
- Expert for 35 Destiny; -> gets Arcane Exaltation (+2 Magic + 2 Spirit), gives 38 Destiny;
- Master for 55 Destiny; -> gets Arcane Exaltation (+2 Magic + 2 Spirit), gives 60 Destiny;
That seems to me to be quite a lot. Of course, it's a bit presumptuous to jump at conclusions for one example, but trust me, this is status quo for all spells. I can go on and on giving you examples which would only further prove it.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted March 24, 2016 03:19 PM |
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with just 5 magic you get 15 attack.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 03:20 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 15:21, 24 Mar 2016.
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natalka said:
ChrisD1, 35% of all stat points go to either magic or spirit. This is true for all might heroes. Did you know that?
All maps have locations visits for spirit/magic and on top of that magic artifacts also exist.
EDIT: actually the % are as follows:
academy, sylvan, necropolis - 40 %
haven, dungeon - 35%
orcs - 30%
no i did not. so the problem is that might heroes don;t get enough might and less magic/spirit. and magic heroes should get more of a boost in magic/spirit instead of might/defense. that simple. as for the sites come on we are over-analyzing. besides there are sites that do the same for defense/might.
shouldn't that percentage go with the class of the hero? (might or magic)
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 24, 2016 03:41 PM |
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Maurice said:
Unlike spells, Battle Tactics can be used without a resource cost, so essentially like War Cries. In fact, War Cries can be considered a sub-skill among the War skills.
The way I would see this sort of thing, the stronger and the more respectful (morale) a hero has, the more effective could be these things, even having ways to 'miss' or fail. Also considering battle experience (number of battles).
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 04:22 PM |
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It must not be too complex - for a very simple reason actually.
Look at a Hero in H7 that is over and above level 20. That hero will be able to cast a couple of spells, but they will also have a ton of abilities that will grant a lot of passive stuff.
Each permanent passive ability that affects a unit makes things more unfathomable (and also more prone to be bugged). It absolutely doesn't matter whether these abilities are the consequence of UNIT abilities (as in H6) or of HERO abilities (as in H7). What you don't want is a game in which you don't understand what is happening.
That means, that the ability-based manipulation of units, while on the surface offering lots of interesting options, is actually strictly limited. Keep in mind - the genius idea has always been to have simply numbers modifying damage via attack/defense difference.
The actual idea behind the skill wheel has been the fact that some warrant a 3-piece skill (say, Offense), while others don't (say, Archery).
Also - very importantly: you cannot have too much passive stuff, because in that case the active stuff is either too weak or too strong.
Bottom line is, there must be a certain simplicity at the bottom of it, limiting what is actually possible with a "skill system".
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 04:25 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 04:31 PM |
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Well, you got that right.
However, considering the actual results I'd say some other people either have been paid decidedly too much for their amount of thought or not thought enough for the amount of money they are paid.
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Matt1818
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 24, 2016 06:20 PM |
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Hey guys I normally just lurk here, but I'm a longtime heroes player and I wanted to jump in and add a couple things.
I agree 100% with JJ about warcries. They don't belong in the game. They worked alright as a substitute for magic for Stronghold in H5 but they don't make sense in H6 or H7 because they are either too weak that I never use them over basic spells with my might hero, or too strong that they are stronger than spells which defeats the purpose of having a distinction between might and magic heroes. In general, might heroes should have passive abilities that buff their creatures, and magic heroes should have powerful spells and abilities that the hero uses.
This brings me to my second point - I hate the idea that spell power and knowledge could affect the "magic damage" of "magic" creatures. That makes things needlessly convoluted and confusing. Suddenly you have creatures with might attack and might defense and magic attack and magic defense, and then where is the difference even between might and magic? It's just two different types of might heroes fighting against each other. Might heroes should passively affect the stats of their army, and magic heroes should use powerful activated hero abilities. Having multiple damage channels works well in Age of Wonders 3, but that game is made by developers who understand their game and the legacy of their series, and a lot of thought and planning went into its implementation. It will not work in heroes, especially with the current developers.
The only heroes game that I feel truly did this right is Heroes 2. You had knights and barbarians with crazy strong armies and you had warlocks and wizards tearing them apart with Armageddon and Chain Lightning. That game had great balance between might and magic factions because the factions and heroes were asymmetric but well thought out and designed. Wizard and warlock had the strongest creatures, but their heroes had the lowest attack and defense stats. Knight and barbarian had the weakest creatures but they grew faster and the heroes had the strongest attack and defense stats. And sorceress and necromancer were in the middle. This gave the game a good interesting balance, and each faction played differently from the others because of it.
Like JJ said, there has to be a solid simple system at the core of the game, otherwise it collapses in on itself from all the different buffs and abilities and stats, because the damage systems never made sense in the first place. Heroes 5 wasn't too bad in this regard - it might have actually helped to only have one class per faction. Heroes 6 was horrible of course, with each creature having way too many stats and modifiers, and heroes 7 is still too messy and buggy and convoluted. They really need to simplify things moving forward.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted March 24, 2016 06:26 PM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 18:28, 24 Mar 2016.
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Matt1818 said:
This brings me to my second point - I hate the idea that spell power and knowledge could affect the "magic damage" of "magic" creatures. That makes things needlessly convoluted and confusing. Suddenly you have creatures with might attack and might defense and magic attack and magic defense, and then where is the difference even between might and magic? It's just two different types of might heroes fighting against each other.
Of course, the system that did it was flawed. But I think it came from the idea that magic heroes were less powerful than magic heroes. I mean, in early game, magic heroes are powerful, but in the end, they don't have aren't as much powerful, as the might heroes' attack and defense modify the whole army (which, on some maps, the quantities range beyond 1000, even to level/tier 7 creatures, like in Heroes III' HoTA).
Well, in either way, I think it would be cool to have at least some units that grow in power by hero's spell power/knowledge (as the creature's special ability), yet keeping the spell power and knowledge with the same function as before.
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raenus
Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
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posted March 24, 2016 08:12 PM |
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Chris, your anger is getting old. People here are performing an autopsy on H7, thoughtfully (whether you notice it or not) going over various aspects of the game and pointing out where they think it could be improved. You act like every point made about H7 being wrong in a certain aspect is "circle-@#!$%^&", some comments are unnecessary I agree. I understand you being frustrated with some of the one liners, but not everyone here is ripping into H7 because they enjoy it. I for one hate it. Whether you believe me or not I desperately want H7 to be a good game, and do not relish deliberating over where and why it failed in my opinion.
Look at all of the amazing ideas people here have, look at all of the possible solutions created by people who enjoy the heck out of Heroes (not H3, not H5, just Heroes the series). Just because you like the newest addition to the series and others do not does not mean that their objections are unwarranted, no more than your praises are. The majority here are not on your side, but you will no more convince them that H7 is good then they will convince you that it is not.
This was unnecessary.
ChrisD1 said:
@stevie
For f's sake get over it,they mutilated our game i agree,let it go and try to enjoy it! Enough with your drama! Warcries, a perversion... Gee!!! I really wonder how would you act after a breakup!!
He was not insulting you in any way. And yet that is how you responded.
This was good.
Quote:
magic costs, is more powerful and gets more powerful,and it lasts. Also depending your magic school magic can have additional effects. The might hero dorsn't have to bother with doffere t warcry schools and can spend points on other stuff like destiny,warfare,offense,defense etc. It seems pretty balanced.
I have seen the same opinion multiple times over, and yet I know nothing of what aspects of the game you enjoy.
You and Genya are the only people who get personal (on a regular basis anyway). Instead of insulting other people how about you simply point out something about the game you like. Don't get in a battle with others, all that will lead to is headaches on both sides. Either ignore them or debate with them. I enjoyed seeing your point of view on the Warcries until you started flinging the insults.
Please keep in mind that I am not attacking you, I was just pleased to see some of your posts and hear your input (it was a breath of fresh air) and disappointed when I saw you reverting to mud.
I would love to read more from someone who enjoys the game, and believe me I understand if you are frustrated. But if you are so sick of seeing people complain why do you keep coming back? People will not change, you will never get someone to start praising the game. In my humble opinion the best thing to do for H7 would be to show some lurkers and other proponents of the game some of your opinion rather than trying to spite others out of theirs.
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Creature Quest: HaltWhoGoesThere
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 08:38 PM |
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I agree. I would also like to hear what exactly it is that people enjoy when they play H7.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 24, 2016 10:15 PM |
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Nice post, Raenus.
I would like to call on everyone to keep things decent and not draw in personal statements. Getting down to a personal level has nothing to do with the game anymore and can only work to provoke irritation and possibly an ill-written post in reply.
Everyone is entitled an opinion as well as entitled to voice them here - as long as it isn't written in the form a personal attack on another member, and that counts for both sides of the fence. Discussions, especially the more fierce ones, can spark creativity and imagination on how to incorporate changes and suggestions that would get the best of both worlds and satisfy the needs on either side.
As someone once said, opinions are like asses; everyone has one and they all stink. That includes my own  . Just accept that fact and keep the discussion on a civilised level. In essence, try and be the better person in the conversation.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted March 24, 2016 11:26 PM |
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What i like about heroes VII hmm... Let's see...
1. I like that like in heroes IV, i can choose from two units (be it only the champions) and would like to see this expanded to stronger core and stronger elite as well.
2. I like the graphics on some units, like the cabirs.
3. I like that although being broken, i can sense a little bit of the older heroes game vibe that i didn't get from heroes VI. I mean, i don;t get bored so easily as i did while playing heroes VI.
4. I like all the choices i have in town building and even though i consider some buildings or choices weird or whatever, it is good to finally have a not so linear approach and would like to see it expanded more.
5. Although i do not agree entirely with the magic system and the magic themselves, i like that there are various after effects given by abilities and would like to see this idea expanded even more.
I think this is it, for now.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 11:53 PM |
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What I like about Heroes 7 is...
1. That the initiative system is not the ATB of Heroes 5 that had more potential and dynamism, but a return to Heroes 3 turns;
2. That classes are toootally non-restrictive and well fleshed out with delicate intricacies that set them apart from one another;
3. That the skill system is... iconic! No bad skills and lots of depth and decision making;
4. That the spell system has magic guilds again! Also Arachne Knowledge being an incredible addition, a true return to the toootally situational Wisdom skill of Heroes 3;
5. That the devs added the incredibly complex and exciting flanking system! Get your 25% bonus damage right there!;
And so much more. So much more...
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 25, 2016 09:53 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 09:56, 25 Mar 2016.
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Stevie said:
I think we're not paid enough to think about this stuff.
Lol indeed! But the cultprit here is that spells are not dependant on magic enough,and that might heroes gain too much magic. The warcries alone are still ok in my books.
If those multipliers were more about the magic stat and might heroes had way more might than magic,i bet you would like your whole army to get 15 might and double damage when not retaliating,than getting 30 might for a single unit.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 25, 2016 12:58 PM |
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Wtf is it with those numbers. Even +10 might is monstrous and I have seen +55 from inner fire 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 25, 2016 01:10 PM |
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The way I understand the game Perfect defense would make the spell useless, right?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 25, 2016 01:17 PM |
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
