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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 31, 2016 03:57 PM |
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I believe that, in addition to regular resources you find lying around (which is, in fact, the strange part of it all), resources and treasures could be found hidden, not only the Grail being the exception. All of that depending on exploration skills, that is. That way, either a map maker who wants to make some hidden surprises and players who don't want to bother with that could coexist.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted March 31, 2016 05:44 PM |
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No listening to community ... No learning from previous mistakes ...
I hear these words incredibly often about H7 development, so naturally it makes me to think about how much they are true.
Let's look at some concrete aspects and you can easily see what's the situation most probably like. This time I do not want to try to convice you that H7 is a good game (pointless to do so), I just want you to think about these things and maybe change your opinions a bit, or to look at the game from the different perspective. You can also see two different opinions or ways of view, positive (+) and negative (-), for each feature.
Sure this summary is quite subjective, you can find some people who loved these elements in H6...
Town development: H6 had terrible towntrees with buildings avaiability dependent on town hall level only. There were some interesting unique racial buildings but the rest was totally boring in my opinion. I have never enjoyed upgrading towns in H6.
H7 comes with a system similar to H5 with town levels. There are many buildings to choose from, many choices in towns.
+ In my opinion it is an excellent towntree, I like it the most in series and it needs many weeks to fully build your town.
- Some people say it is confused.
Against H6 amazing progress.
Hero development: H6 introduced a skilltree nearly the same for all the factions. The result was that factions were nearly the same - and this is the opposite of situation most people want to have in the game.
+ H7 comes with a restrictive skillwheel which avoids you from choosing the same skills for each hero, you have to choose different tactics for each hero. There are also super racials which finally give each faction unique game tactics (in this regard I also see one of the highest H7 advantages - the factions have never been more different to each other in my opinion, or at least in the Heroes games I played).
- The restrictions went too far so you cannot do many choices, every hero has some predetermined strategy you cannot change. Also some conncetions among skills are missing (but as well as in H6).
Against H6 good step forward.
Heroes specializations: They were extremely boring and nobody needed or remembered them in H6. The H7 is unfortunately nearly the same.
+ The classes were expected to be much different to each other so no real specs were expected to be needed. Also at least several specs (but very few) seems to be quite good.
- The classes are finally similar to each other and so do the heroes.
Not much learned from H6 in this case.
Units abilities: In H6 you could easily got lost in dozens of abilities, some passive and some active. H7 decreased their number a lot.
+ Faster combats
- The restrictions went too far and some units have no unique abilities, some of them are just copied.
The good idea to get rid of too many abilities made the exactly opposite problem than H6. Very controverse.
Area of control: In H6 the mine system was too fixed to the control point so whole run-for-mines fun was gone. H7 keeps aoc but with improvements.
+ You are able to ransack mines in enemy's aoc without any skill. It makes sense according to logics.
- Some people would like to get rid of aoc at all
Good step forward against H6.
|Town conversion:
+ Hated H6 feature is gone in H7!
|Resources: The lack of resources types in H7 made the town building even more boring.
+ Wise decision I think.
- Certain people dislike the new resources, although it has no impact to gameplay.
|Town portals: H6 changed the game a lot when you were able to teleportate where you wanted (I did not like this basic mechanics' change). In H7 it returns to H5, only improved a bit.
Wise decision I think.
As regards the graphics, I do not think it has a sense to judge it. Some people prefer original 2D games art style, someone does the same with H4's isometric camera or half 3D in H5 and/or H6 and the same is true about H7's realistic 3D. You might prefer better visibility to graphics or vice versa but generally every game has its own style which is not bad, it also depends on experience what you like the most.
Generally, I think there were many good decisions after H6 and in many cases they learnt from this game. Unfortunately, this effort made sometimes another problems as they went too far with some restrictions.
Another problem is also there. Ubi will probably never learn that copying the previous game and releasing slow, not working game with incredible amount of bugs is the biggest mistake they can do. Money and time are the biggest enemies of Ubi games players.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 31, 2016 06:13 PM |
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Why do you keep comparing everything with H6?
You tell us: H7 > H6
I (and others) tell you: H1-5 > H7
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Matt1818
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 31, 2016 06:19 PM |
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Heroes 7 is a huge step forward from heroes 6, the absolute low point of the series, but it is still behind every other heroes game in the series.
They need to take Heroes 5 TotE as a starting point and develop a sequel to THAT game. Leave all this heroes 6 garbage behind and forget it ever happened. Incrementally reversing all the horrible decisions from the heroes 6 development isn't good enough, it just starts with a bad game and makes it slightly better but still mediocre. Scrap it all and start from Heroes 5 TotE which is a great game.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted March 31, 2016 06:24 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Town development: H6 had terrible towntrees with buildings avaiability dependent on town hall level only. There were some interesting unique racial buildings but the rest was totally boring in my opinion. I have never enjoyed upgrading towns in H6.
H7 comes with a system similar to H5 with town levels. There are many buildings to choose from, many choices in towns.
+ In my opinion it is an excellent towntree, I like it the most in series and it needs many weeks to fully build your town.
- Some people say it is confused.
Well, I'd be for a town tree, but not too confusing or too restrictive. As long as the number of resources required is balanced, as well as the buildings required to build another building are well-thought out, I could give it a try.
Antalyan said:
Hero development: H6 introduced a skilltree nearly the same for all the factions. The result was that factions were nearly the same - and this is the opposite of situation most people want to have in the game.
+ H7 comes with a restrictive skillwheel which avoids you from choosing the same skills for each hero, you have to choose different tactics for each hero. There are also super racials which finally give each faction unique game tactics (in this regard I also see one of the highest H7 advantages - the factions have never been more different to each other in my opinion, or at least in the Heroes games I played).
- The restrictions went too far so you cannot do many choices, every hero has some predetermined strategy you cannot change. Also some conncetions among skills are missing (but as well as in H6).
Still it is bad. For it has been said that people want a random system, yet to make it that some skills are offered more often than others - e.g. Knights have a better chance of learning Light than Dark Magic skill.
Antalyan said:
Heroes specializations: They were extremely boring and nobody needed or remembered them in H6. The H7 is unfortunately nearly the same.
+ The classes were expected to be much different to each other so no real specs were expected to be needed. Also at least several specs (but very few) seems to be quite good.
- The classes are finally similar to each other and so do the heroes.
I don't think there is a single person that is satisfied with the hero specialties. And it has been told too many times that they suck.
I mean, these static specializations may be good only for the campaign heroes (at least to toughen up the challenge). But only for the campaign.
Antalyan said:
Units abilities: In H6 you could easily got lost in dozens of abilities, some passive and some active. H7 decreased their number a lot.
+ Faster combats
- The restrictions went too far and some units have no unique abilities, some of them are just copied.
Maybe it is just me, but I did like that many abilities (though some racials could've been combined, rather than split into several abilities). Anyhow, there is much to discuss about that as well.
Antalyan said:
Area of control: In H6 the mine system was too fixed to the control point so whole run-for-mines fun was gone. H7 keeps aoc but with improvements.
+ You are able to ransack mines in enemy's aoc without any skill. It makes sense according to logics.
- Some people would like to get rid of aoc at all
Area of Control could work, but not in its current state. For the point of having some abilities that only work on a part of your land sounds only for your secondary hero, who'd just protect your town. I'd rather that the idea gets a different approach, like no monsters spawn on your land.
Antalyan said:
|Town conversion:
+ Hated H6 feature is gone in H7!
I wouldn't say hated, since town conversion was something that was anticipated. The problem lies in how easy it was to convert the town - use some resources and click that button.
It does work in ERA/WOG, where you'd have to deconstruct your whole town before converting it.
Antalyan said:
|Resources: The lack of resources types in H7 made the town building even more boring.
+ Wise decision I think.
- Certain people dislike the new resources, although it has no impact to gameplay.
Tactically better, though there were some opinions how you can't distinguish the resources very well, due to their color and appearance. Wonder if still applies.
Antalyan said:
|Town portals: H6 changed the game a lot when you were able to teleportate where you wanted (I did not like this basic mechanics' change). In H7 it returns to H5, only improved a bit.
That is perhaps the only thing that outmatches the other Heroes games. Probably it was something that bugs me about H3 - you can just teleport too easily around towns; just have Logistics + ton of Knowledge and you basically won at least half the game.
There's much else to be said about certain aspects of the game. But it just feels pointless, considering this talk should be directed to Ubi, Limbic and the Erwan. And we all know how that will go.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 31, 2016 06:25 PM |
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Matt1818 said:
Scrap it all and start from Heroes 5 TotE which is a great game.
Some things like approach of the 3D, general art direction and lore NEED to get changed even from that game IMO. In terms of pure gameplay though, I'm 100% behind you for that statement.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted March 31, 2016 06:34 PM |
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Galaad said:
Why do you keep comparing everything with H6?
You tell us: H7 > H6
I (and others) tell you: H1-5 > H7
I am just reacting to some past comments that Ubi has learned nothing from H6.
I do not want to compare here as I learned everyone has a really different opinion and that it is really difficult to compare the newer games with their predecessors. The expectations are/were not equal. Everybody wants to see the elements and mechanics they liked in the previous games but to fix their disadvantages as well. The more previous games you have played, the worse. The combination of these elements is different for every person so the newer game can never fulfill all of them. Everyone has to adapt their wishes to be realistic. I remember well how many people were angry after the skillwheel release, many months before they were able to try to play it, just because it was different to great H5 one... And because the skillwheel they started hate this game or to be at least very negative.
It has nothing to do with the fact I like H7.
I really doubt any future heroes could be great for you or some others as there are too many things from previous games which you need to have in the game.
The same is the situation with listening to community. Many improvements and things are demanded but the opinions what to do exactly (while not being the same as in previous games) are so different that anything would devs do would not satisfy you.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted March 31, 2016 06:45 PM |
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Edited by Antalyan at 18:45, 31 Mar 2016.
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Galaad said:
Matt1818 said:
Scrap it all and start from Heroes 5 TotE which is a great game.
Some things like approach of the 3D, general art direction and lore NEED to get changed even from that game IMO. In terms of pure gameplay though, I'm 100% behind you for that statement.
Again I really do not understand this lore aversion.
- Most of game worlds are +- similar and how much is the story good depends on the storywriters, not the world
- How and how much the world affects the gameplay depends on the game designers. The number of magic schools, the units ... all these things can easily be adapted to the game's needs, not to the world's.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 31, 2016 06:48 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:49, 31 Mar 2016.
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Antalyan, you don't get it. And you never will unless you play the previous titles. H7 is a counter to the mistakes of H6 but that should be a given. The point was to get somewhere, not just avoid the huge mistakes of H6. Do yourself a favour and see for yourself. If not, you are wasting the time of everyone who has. Ubi heroes are ok independently but they cannot hold a candle compared to the old ones. And that alone is considered a failure. Not because they are bad games. Because they are worse games. Because they are almost good but not quite there - with the exception of H5. But that doesn't cut it anymore, not for most people.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 31, 2016 07:02 PM |
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@Antalian
there are some people out there who enjoyed Might and Magic 9 too lol
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted March 31, 2016 07:06 PM |
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Elvin said:
Antalyan, you don't get it. And you never will unless you play the previous titles. H7 is a counter to the mistakes of H6 but that should be a given. The point was to get somewhere, not just avoid the huge mistakes of H6. Do yourself a favour and see for yourself. If not, you are wasting the time of everyone who has. Ubi heroes are ok independently but they cannot hold a candle compared to the old ones. And that alone is considered a failure. Not because they are bad games. Because they are worse games. Because they are almost good but not quite there - with the exception of H5. But that doesn't cut it anymore, not for most people.
This seems to be sensible. Ubi Heroes are for me a great games as I have played them the most. To be honest, I am glad I have not played H3 as I could be totally dissatissfied with newer games.
Seems like people who started with H5 or H6 will like H7 much more likely than H3 players.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted March 31, 2016 07:14 PM |
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Antalyan said:
This seems to be sensible. Ubi Heroes are for me a great games as I have played them the most. To be honest, I am glad I have not played H3 as I could be totally dissatissfied with newer games.
Seems like people who started with H5 or H6 will like H7 much more likely than H3 players.
If I understood this correctly, you are grateful because you haven't played the game that is better?
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted March 31, 2016 07:20 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
Antalyan said:
This seems to be sensible. Ubi Heroes are for me a great games as I have played them the most. To be honest, I am glad I have not played H3 as I could be totally dissatissfied with newer games.
Seems like people who started with H5 or H6 will like H7 much more likely than H3 players.
If I understood this correctly, you are grateful because you haven't played the game that is better?
Right, because I would not be satissfied with anything else.
If you stay some time in a 5* hotel, you will not probably enjoy some 3* or 4* hotel, although you would have done so before.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 31, 2016 07:25 PM |
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Antalyan, the fact Ubi and the Erwin MMH®Team© are incapable of making better than the previous games has nothing to do with you having not played them.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 31, 2016 07:26 PM |
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Antalyan said:
|Town portals: H6 changed the game a lot when you were able to teleportate where you wanted (I did not like this basic mechanics' change). In H7 it returns to H5, only improved a bit.
Wise decision I think.
H7 town portal might be better than H5, but still one of the worst in the game series. The game needs to have a proper town portal function, i.e. one that lets you teleport not only to nearest town, but to any town. Leave in an option to disable this feature if you think it kills competitive multiplayer (which I agree it does), but the feature needs to be there as an option for those who like to play epic-style adventure games.
Heroes 3 got it wrong on many levels - not only was it imbalanced as hell and skewed the game absurdly towards Earth Magic - but it still made the game playable. H5 didn't meet the basic requirements for epic adventure style gaming and only serious crosscuts by the mapmaker could overcome this to a certain extent. H6 at least made an attempt at fixing the problems with H5 system, but still got it wrong by making it too accessible - still, it was better than H7, which again fails on this feature completely.
A townportal system needs to fit all the following requirements:
- It needs to be flexible, i.e. potentially allow you to travel to any town (might require a structure)
- It needs to be neither too accessible nor too inaccessible. If it's too accessible, it potentially makes game trivial. On the other hand, if it's too inaccessible, it ends up being a toss of coin that decides your fate in the game
- It needs to have downsides to use it. This can be resource demands in constructing the portal (a town needs a portal to be a viable target) and it can be things like eating up all your movement (this in order to prevent multi-town zapping) and all/most of your mana for the rest of the day (this in order to make it unattractive to zap back and prevent a town against a siege)
My suggestion would therefore be:
- A Town Portal spell that is universal and unlocks at a certain spell level (highest level) and requires a certain hero level (level 20?), like in H5
- Requires a costly structure in the target town before you can go to this location (similar to H6 but more costly)
- Requires at least half of your movement remaining when using it and uses all your movement for the day
- Eats up 90 % of your mana
- Can be disabled when setting up the game (like in WoG)
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What will happen now?
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted March 31, 2016 07:31 PM |
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Antalyan said:
frostymuaddib said:
Antalyan said:
This seems to be sensible. Ubi Heroes are for me a great games as I have played them the most. To be honest, I am glad I have not played H3 as I could be totally dissatissfied with newer games.
Seems like people who started with H5 or H6 will like H7 much more likely than H3 players.
If I understood this correctly, you are grateful because you haven't played the game that is better?
Right, because I would not be satissfied with anything else.
If you stay some time in a 5* hotel, you will not probably enjoy some 3* or 4* hotel, although you would have done so before.
But if you could, and it even cost less, why wouldn't you stay at a 5* hotel?
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2016 07:38 PM |
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Antalyan said:
This seems to be sensible. Ubi Heroes are for me a great games as I have played them the most. To be honest, I am glad I have not played H3 as I could be totally dissatissfied with newer games.
Seems like people who started with H5 or H6 will like H7 much more likely than H3 players.
Yes I agree. Though after H5 I did try H3 and it was in no way a better game for me. Neither is it more complex nor is it more immersive and certainly isn’t “prettier”. I wouldn’t want anything built on H1-H4, just H5, and I think I am not alone with this and not in minority. The only common agreement between different fans seems to be, that no one would like to build on H6. So it is sort of difficult task for any developer to create the “proper” Heroes game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 31, 2016 07:45 PM |
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Bitula said:
I wouldn’t want anything built on H1-H4, just H5
And on what games do you think H5 was built on? Ok, mostly H3.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted March 31, 2016 07:47 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Right, because I would not be satissfied with anything else.
If you stay some time in a 5* hotel, you will not probably enjoy some 3* or 4* hotel, although you would have done so before.
WOW  I am speechless
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted March 31, 2016 07:55 PM |
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Bitula said:
Antalyan said:
This seems to be sensible. Ubi Heroes are for me a great games as I have played them the most. To be honest, I am glad I have not played H3 as I could be totally dissatissfied with newer games.
Seems like people who started with H5 or H6 will like H7 much more likely than H3 players.
Yes I agree. Though after H5 I did try H3 and it was in no way a better game for me. Neither is it more complex nor is it more immersive and certainly isn’t “prettier”. I wouldn’t want anything built on H1-H4, just H5, and I think I am not alone with this and not in minority. The only common agreement between different fans seems to be, that no one would like to build on H6. So it is sort of difficult task for any developer to create the “proper” Heroes game.
I think there could be some game built on H6 but not a Heroes game, it was too different.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
