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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 02:23 PM |
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My thoughts exactly on the subject lizard warrior  I still recognize h5's popularity but it's not for me.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 03:32 PM |
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Elvin said:
Stevie said:
Elvin said:
The argument that H3 multi is essentially single player + final battle is kinda silly. But going by that logic, same should apply to all heroes games. Assuming that the maps one has in mind are as one-dimensional..
That's bullsnow and you know it best. I know it's hard to give PROJ any credit, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on this one. Yes, every Heroes multiplayer is basically single player vs AI for the most part of the game, the rest being insignificant scout battles or position checks (at best) or just straight out final battle. In that sense, H5 duels removed the unnecessary PvE and delivered the PvP directly. I remember you saying that ever since you discovered the fun of duels you could never return back to standard multiplayer, so why is that exactly if not because of this?
[boring stuff]
[basically not a refutation]
Oh, I see then. I never played "real" multiplayer so I wouldn't understand. Talk about silly arguments, how rich of you. Whatever dimensions you're talking about in competitive play they still pan out to a majority of the time spent in micro managing, exploring, neutral farming, acquiring resources, building your town, an army and the necessary momentum to ultimately face your opponent, which is basically single player no matter how you look at it. The only noteworthy multiplayer aspect of the game is the duel. That might not be even 10% of the game time depending on the context. Not taking away anything from Heroes games, just having the common sense of recognizing some inherent limitations.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 04, 2016 04:02 PM |
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Stevie said:
Whatever dimensions you're talking about in competitive play they still pan out to a majority of the time spent in micro managing, exploring, neutral farming, acquiring resources, building your town, an army and the necessary momentum to ultimately face your opponent, which is basically single player no matter how you look at it. The only noteworthy multiplayer aspect of the game is the duel.
Well, the tasks you engage in are the same ones in single player and you certainly don't do it together with any other person but how you manage those tasks changes drastically on multi-player compared with single player. There is a way you play against the AI and there are ways you play again different human opponents. So, even if the tasks themselves don't involve directly facing your opponent, the progress, the mind set and the feeling of the game play itself is radically different.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 04:07 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 04, 2016 04:27 PM |
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Well, by that logic, so is chess. Most you do is sit by yourself and contemplate the moves. It's not the actions themselves that define the characteristic of a multiplayer game but the experience as a whole.
You can go to the movies with your grandfather, you can go to the movies with your girlfriend. In both cases, 95 percent of your time will be spent sitting in a chair and looking directly at the screen. They will be very different experiences though.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 04:43 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:44, 04 Jun 2016.
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No, that's not the extent I'm going for. You surely build up momentum to engage at a certain point in a duel with your adversary which is the end purpose, but the way you get there is exploiting the map as efficiently as possible which is basically single player and takes the majority of game time. So there's a difference between the purpose and the means. We call it multiplayer because the purpose is to defeat another human player, but the means to get there rely almost exclusively on the efficiency to exploit the environment and the AI which is single player. Granted you play that out in a certain way with your mind on the adversary, but at the end of the day it is still a different style of PvE.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 04, 2016 04:58 PM |
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On really bigger maps, a lot of PvP and PvE can feel similar, that's true. But in general, how you exploit the map efficiently also differs. Speaking only of H3, the AI plays mostly to capture castles for example, while a human player can have guerilla attacks on mines or artifact zones just as well, trying to sabotage your economy and growth. In single player, you can go Sim City mode much easier, building up your defense, concentrating on building structures and harvesting mines before launching some deadly attack. The multiplayer is usually more about rapid raids and disturbance, even if the final battle is not yet to come.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 05:18 PM |
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Is 2v2 multiplayer a popular thing? Playing with an ally seems like it would alleviate the single player gripes to some extent, since you're interacting with each other in terms of how you clear the map and help each other to be the most efficient overall unit you can be. Plus there would be more than one big battle, unless you play the same faction and pool armies but that would be boring.
I could be totally wrong, haven't played competitive multiplayer at all lol.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 05:19 PM |
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LucPatenaude said:
This goes beyond the need to say that foolishness is used in a way that the ancient Status Quo of the single core computer and Win. XP(all editions) and, its compatibility made O.S. for XP called: Win 7(all editions).
This a warning to all who uses Operating Systems older than Windows 8/8.1/10, 2017 is the year that cuts off all that is older than 5 years of age.
For Crying Out Loud, the SmartPhones, MiniTablet computers and, full size Tablets are way more performant than your over-sized tower based desktop machines, people.
OMG! Even the Xbox consoles are reaching their 4th generation officially by 2020 or, even sooner than that. You, all, are ready to let your children and grand-children mock and laugh at you while you are crazy enough to defend your ever lasting Status Quo?
Heroes 3(all modded editions) is merely one of many examples of how stubborn you, young and old are becoming(ex-gamers that is).
Both Microsoft and Apple are fighting a seem-to-be, never ending war against ever growing excess of obsolescence. The makers of personal computers are, basically, begging these software giants at doing something drastic in order to save both hardware and software industries of the right now world as for the near future of it all.
Everything I just wrote, right now, is not fiction or made up. This is cold, hard, truth all over the planet/globe/world.
so you side with the corporations that bleed people dry more and more every year by producing things that limit their ability to please the consumer, and even rob the customers of previous customizational ability/backwards compatability/independence from operating systems and how they data-mine their consumers?
as a consumer, i'd say you'd fit in real well with businessmen who prey on people.
you should go be a part of the ubisoft forum or something. you'd be likely welcomed with open arms there(hell, you might even get a job at ubisoft with your mind). here, you'll be met with sneers of disgust for your disdain of modders and predatory way of thinking.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted June 04, 2016 05:29 PM |
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That was the whole idea as a pro. accountant back in 1990.
I got banned several years ago on the Ubisoft forums as way too helpful to players whom were in real distress on how to make any HoMM game work onto their own PC.
As you can see, game publishers and developers do not see eye to eye with me. Since the end of the first decade of when Homm 5 was slowly but surely replacing HoMM 3 as the favored game.
Also, Vista(Win. 6) numerous problems of all kinds, followed shortly with 7(Win.6.1). That era of PC troubleshooting was true damnation.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 04, 2016 05:32 PM |
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The only way to make the multiplayer 100% pvp would be to program the game in such way that your opponent will control the neutral creatures and vice versa. The fights would take longer and there would be no quickcombat, but it would truly be multiplayer.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 04, 2016 05:37 PM |
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 04, 2016 05:39 PM |
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Yes, but you can't have both mp and speed 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 05:44 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:45, 04 Jun 2016.
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LizardWarrior said:
The only way to make the multiplayer 100% pvp would be to program the game in such way that your opponent will control the neutral creatures and vice versa. The fights would take longer and there would be no quickcombat, but it would truly be multiplayer.
That's going to the other extreme. What needs to be done is to give the players the necessary tools to be meddlesome for one another, and in that sense an espionage / sabotage skill or mechanism could be a fairly good start. You just need to encourage more PvP interaction and not passive farming.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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sobaka770
Hired Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 05:48 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
The only way to make the multiplayer 100% pvp would be to program the game in such way that your opponent will control the neutral creatures and vice versa. The fights would take longer and there would be no quickcombat, but it would truly be multiplayer.
I honestly don't see how modern HoMM game can have a good and large multiplayer if the design doesn't shift drastically. The games are way too long, there's minimal meaningful interaction between players, not a lot of variation, everything usually boils down to that one big fight etc. etc.
It's just not a good multiplayer design. The duel with preperly balanced creatures should be the main multiplayer mode for competitive, it has a lot of potential.
On a strategic level I just can't take multiplayer that seriously, it's just not robust. Longer multiplayer games, like Civilisation, Crusader Kings have much more immediate interaction between players on many levels such as warfare, diplomacy, spying etc.. HoMM could evolve closer to such a vision, but I think that the original formula still works well, it just needs refinements, solid campaign, RMG and AI.
Multiplayer should be working but cannot be the focus of the game, most people who actually buy do not play competitive at all. They do however look at terrible graphics, poor performance, regression compared to previous entry etc.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 04, 2016 06:01 PM |
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LucPatenaude said:
I got banned several years ago on the Ubisoft forums as way too helpful to players whom were in real distress on how to make any HoMM game work onto their own PC.
As you can see, game publishers and developers do not see eye to eye with me. Since the end of the first decade of when Homm 5 was slowly but surely replacing HoMM 3 as the favored game.
Also, Vista(Win. 6) numerous problems of all kinds, followed shortly with 7(Win.6.1). That era of PC troubleshooting was true damnation.
sorry no offence but you have scarcely been helpful to players mate, you have been banned on many forums because you constantly show up in threads to post incoherent stuff talking on and on about versions of operating systems and hardware no matter the context, which (I really genuinely mean constructive criticism and no personal attack or offence of any sort here) can come across less like a running joke but rather a little OCD or autistic,
take it from me as a frequent poster of garbage who has nevertheless been successful when he knuckles down, I would say you would do well to apply yourself more to the actual discussions if you have the capacity, I think you could be a thoughtful poster because of your effort and persistence, but for over ten years you are always insisting to talk past everyone and lecture on and on about dodgy technical information which has nothing to do with the thread lol
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 06:13 PM |
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sobaka770 said:
It's just not a good multiplayer design. The duel with preperly balanced creatures should be the main multiplayer mode for competitive, it has a lot of potential.
To be honest I think that should be the main multiplayer mode. The problem I have though is that you can't customize the army/heroes properly, but rather pick from pre-made which essentially makes it rock-paper-scissors in very extreme way. Just make each creature cost X amount of points, hero levels cost Y points, artifacts and spells cost Z amount and so forth. Give players actual freedom to build their army with agreed limit between players, you could maybe even buy a battle-field of your choosing. The current form is IMO extremely dull, it's even worse than h6 duels which were bad even by themselves...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 04, 2016 06:31 PM |
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This is how it's done 
But back to what we were saying. For me single player is the no brainer stuff and multiplayer is where the thinking begins. In single player nothing matters, if you know how to play the AI will always lose. But try your single player tactics against a good human opponent and they will fall flat. Anyone can learn to abuse the AI and properly build a town but multiplayer is a lot more than that.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted June 04, 2016 08:24 PM |
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LucPatenaude said:
What the heck is the federal government of Canada, once all of ministries' computers go permnently down for the count, will do? It is on Win. XP systems, still. Have you thought of the huge consequences that could bring to this very young country? If I get to think too hard about it, I am afraid of going totally nuts.
Not sure if that's what you're asking, but from what I've heard from the grapevine from my mother (a government employee), the Canadian government has plans (or maybe a straight-up deal with Microsoft) to update all their computers to the next OS system that follows Windows 10. So, the presumed Windows 11 system - immediate update to that upon release. At least, that's what I've heard.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted June 04, 2016 10:56 PM |
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Kimarous said:
LucPatenaude said:
What the heck is the federal government of Canada, once all of ministries' computers go permnently down for the count, will do? It is on Win. XP systems, still. Have you thought of the huge consequences that could bring to this very young country? If I get to think too hard about it, I am afraid of going totally nuts.
Not sure if that's what you're asking, but from what I've heard from the grapevine from my mother (a government employee), the Canadian government has plans (or maybe a straight-up deal with Microsoft) to update all their computers to the next OS system that follows Windows 10. So, the presumed Windows 11 system - immediate update to that upon release. At least, that's what I've heard.
Wasn't Win10 supposed to be the last Windows? Anyways I don't really see how that has anything to do with Heroes but whatever.. xD
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
