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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 11, 2016 05:40 PM |
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Indeed, Paul & Rob's music has been declining over the years. They're earlier work is still amazing, culminating with Heroes 4 in my opinion. If it were up to me I'd really seek that kind of music back, be it from them or other composers.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 11, 2016 08:02 PM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 20:03, 11 Sep 2016.
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Jon van Caneghem was the lead designer of most classic HOMM games, except for HOMM4 when he became largely absorbed with some past time (water skiing or something like that).
In an interview after Heroes4 and before bankrupcy, he said:
Quote:
What is your level of involvement for the new game?
JVC: (Full-time) Yeah, that's my plan. I mean, I'm looking forward to getting back into it full-time and really making it... It sounds like... I feel like I owe it to the fans, to bring back Heroes the way it was, as opposed to what it kind of evolved into.
And a M&M wiki says Ubisoft even approached him about a position on the HeroesV design team. He declined!
Since that interview Ubisoft has shown several times they (or their developers) can't design to save their lives. JvC could join or start a game developer company and make a *good* HOMM game. But it seems he doesn't care! He'd rather make some mobile games.
Why did JvC stop caring about HOMM ?
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 11, 2016 08:19 PM |
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Well, NWC was to release Heroes V, but the bankruptcy happened. I think even JVC said how that game was to focus more on strategy, than on RPG elements that Heroes IV had.
And there is that other source where he felt a lot of business potential lied in making Heroes Online. However, 3DO declined, or so I heard.
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 11, 2016 08:34 PM |
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Quote:
How was the Heroes series born?
JVC: (Without my wife) Heroes would have never come about. I made King's Bounty, I don't know if you've ever known of that game...
CH: ...Yeah...
JVC: ... and that was the first game she got into, and I started King's Bounty, and she totally fell in love with it. And I went back to working on Might & Magic. And every month, every week, every morning, (she'd say) "When are you going to make a sequel to King's Bounty? That's the best game, that's better than Might & Magic! That's the one to make a sequel for." (So I said) "Alright, I'll make it." So finally I gave in and that's how Heroes I was born.
CH: Well, thank her for it.
JVC: (laughs) I will.
CH: She had a good eye.
JVC: And she's actually... was involved quite a bit with Heroes II and III. She did alot of the maps and alot of the testing...
CH: ... Oh yeah...
JVC: ... Quite a bit. She still plays it to this day. She still yells at me every day for the way Heroes IV turned out like, "You ruined my game!"
This man has no conscience. How can he continue ignoring Heroes of Might and Magic ?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 11, 2016 08:48 PM |
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And do what, buy it back?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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vitirr
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 11, 2016 09:01 PM |
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So then perhaps Ubi should hire JVC's wife? 
Why he doesn't care about Heroes anymore? Perhaps he divorced?
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 11, 2016 09:10 PM |
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As a matter of fact, I've been googling "Jon van canneghem" with divorce keyword, and found nothing.
I'm not saying he should buy it back. But he can make another fantasy strategy game, even a blatant ripoff design-wise. Different town lineups, improved mechanics, but the core would be tactical battles with creature stacks, town building, and exploration.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 11, 2016 09:25 PM |
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vitirr said:
So then perhaps Ubi should hire JVC's wife?
WE SHOULD MAKE A PETITION RIGHT NOW!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 11, 2016 09:38 PM |
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b0rsuk said:
I'm not saying he should buy it back. But he can make another fantasy strategy game, even a blatant ripoff design-wise.
Ahem.
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 11, 2016 09:55 PM |
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I just watched the 2015 interview with JvC and he said he didn't join Ubi for Heroes because he didn't have time.
Creature Quest looks rather similar, but it makes HOMM1 battlefields look big. But he says it's collectible, and that "mobile is the future of gaming for me".
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 11, 2016 09:56 PM |
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@Verriker: Your long explanation makes sense.
But just writing "Rob and Paul do not care about the lore of Team Erwin" is an exaggeration. They have to care, it is their job. If they like it or not (or how close they stayed to it) is an entirely different story. To me your first statement felt like you were just looking for a chance to bash on your favorite M&M persona again...
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 11, 2016 11:52 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 23:55, 11 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
By the way there's nothing wrong with Ashan as a setting or its lore. Whether you like it or not, they have put a lot of effort in it and it feels more fleshed out than the old universe(s). Let's please not confuse your issues with the actual games with a theme that's perfectly fine.
First off, two premises.
As I said times and times again, Ashan is not (or shouldn't be anyway) what makes the last games bad. I don't hate Ashan. I actually liked many of the aesthethics that came with Ashan and even some of the Ashan-specific units, I loved the concepts fot the Rakshasa and the Lammasu and the Sun/Moon Deer.
I LIKED THE LICH! For god's sake pretty much everyone on these boards hated the lich with a truest passion and probably doubt that you aren't a wrinting bot if you don't hate the lich, I liked its design in HOMM6 and the fluorescent spider claws. That's how impartial I am.
The second premise should be that, as I said time and time again, lore falls a lot more under personal preferences and tastes than does, say, gameplay or replayability or the overall efficiency and stability of the software. And I think that, to a degree, discussing personal preferences as objective facts leads to nothing.*
*it should be noted though, that it is of course possible to discuss, question and rate art.Art is surely subjective but there is a degree of experience, familiarity and culture that could make one able to compare, say, a painting to another and "objectively" decide which is the better one. If we are talking about videogames - or rather, from the perspective of us as gamers - then how one thing looks, or a music quality, can be a minor detail; if we're having a discussion about paintings or songs, it becomes a different story.
Both these premises being said, reading those words is actually painful to me. You pratically scorched my eyes with this statement.
How can you ever think that a world with such a predictable, schematic and unoriginal lore is something that took "effort" when it's so generic and bland, how can you call it "fleshed out" if compared to a lore that had years over years of stories, how can you not see the massive difference in quality between one narrative and the other, is something that leaves me numbed. "There's nothing wrong with Ashan" to the degree that a TBS game doesn't need a great lore to work. But as a narrative, there's plenty wrong with Ashan and it's self-evident. If you really want to delve in that, I can break you down why it is such a bad product.
Which is by no means a way to change your tastes mind you, but could eventually get you to understand why people hate something that is objectively quite mediocre when it is compared to a solid story that they knew well and loved. Because statements such as this one you made can only make those who know better cringe.
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vitirr
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 12, 2016 12:01 AM |
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EnergyZ said:
b0rsuk said:
I'm not saying he should buy it back. But he can make another fantasy strategy game, even a blatant ripoff design-wise.
Ahem.
Yes, that's about the same type of game.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 12, 2016 12:06 AM |
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Edited by verriker at 00:07, 12 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
@Verriker: Your long explanation makes sense.
But just writing "Rob and Paul do not care about the lore of Team Erwin" is an exaggeration. They have to care, it is their job. If they like it or not (or how close they stayed to it) is an entirely different story.
to be honest mate I'd say they neither care about that nor have to care,
like I said they were instructed/obliged to care for Heroes 6 and simply didn't, merely doing their own thing for the most part and pretty much getting away with it to the comical frustration of Team Erwin, their task was to create X number of tracks of heroic fantasy music, not to care about lore lol
only point here being (a general point to the discussion) that some themes aren't fitting for this reason, Paul and Rob are not going to be accounting for stuff like the in depth backstory, politics or perhaps even the visuals of these factions, their musical vision is almost completely divorced from Erwin's vision lol
now as to why there was more synergy between the games and the music in the NWC era and Heroes 5, well that's up for debate, one could blame it on Rob and Paul being younger and less sick of this genre back then, maybe they had more time and money to work with back then, better rapport with JVC and Fabrice than with Erwin and his team, or whatever you fancy, I will not make a verdict myself lol
SoilBurn said:
To me your first statement felt like you were just looking for a chance to bash on your favorite M&M persona again...
if one is criticizing a certain figure or team who have run something into the ground maybe there is a good reason for that lol
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 12, 2016 12:52 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 01:12, 12 Sep 2016.
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Momo said:
Because statements such as this one you made can only make those who know better cringe.
Implying I was not around when the ones who "know better" played the older games 
You might think you "know better", but it is actually only your preference speaking here. In my opinion Ashan is at least graphically and detail-wise much more fleshed out than Enroth or Axeoth (spin-off games, compendium, short stories etc.). Now if you find the stories themselves linear and predictable, what can I say. Then you probably need to play again the H3 and H4 campaigns and re-discover a whole new level of "linearness" - not that I did not like them, mind you, there were some great ideas & stories to tell there (which I would love to read e.g. in a book form). But the newer campaigns are a bit less formulaic in their progress (I'm talking about the campaigns themselves here, not the lore behind them! I am sure you can write very good books about the old universe, but this is not the point I am making).
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2016 01:20 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 01:22, 12 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
Momo said:
Because statements such as this one you made can only make those who know better cringe.
Implying I was not around when the ones who "know better" played the older games
You might think you "know better", but it is actually only your preference speaking here. In my opinion Ashan is at least graphically and detail-wise much more fleshed out than Enroth or Axeoth (spin-off games, compendium, short stories etc.). Now if you find the stories themselves linear and predictable, what can I say. Then you probably need to play again the H3 and H4 campaigns and re-discover a whole new level of "linearness" - not that I did not like them, mind you, there were some great ideas & stories there. But the newer campaigns are a bit less formulaic in their progress (I'm talking about the campaigns themselves here, not the stories behind them! I am sure you can write very good books about the old universe, but this is not the point I am making).
1) those who know better may not have played the older games. You see, since I returned to these boards a few months ago I got since the start the grasp of how strong this objection is - "You complain about everything because you're blinded by nostalgia". But repeating the objection again and again won't let you get away with everything. In short, it has nothing to do with when and why you were around, doing what, etc. It has to do with judging narrative products. I played HOMM2 marginally, never thouched the first game, never ever played other M&M titles. I speak in no way in the capacity of an "old school" fan. And I can tell you that the current work, from a narrative standpoint, is easily rated as mediocre for those who have a grasp of fantasy narrative.
2) lore =/= plot, as I said some times. We're speaking of lore here, right? The plots of HoMM3's campaigns were as linear as it gets, but we weren't speaking about that. As I already said, you can tell excellent stories with an Ashan setting, just like you can tell awful stories with a setting on Axeoth etc.
3) if you discuss an intellectual product such as a fantasy lore, as I said, there is some degree of objectivity. You cannot call Ashan's lore more "fleshed out" with the tons of materials you have on the old HOMM universe. A bit more debatable and ultimately subjective is questioning if "effort" was put into it, but at a first glance, I'd say "not much really". As I said, I can delve into details and structure my reasoning about Ashan's lore not being very original nor an impressive job, but that would start a very long post solely about lore and the generally consensual rules of fantasy narrative.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 12, 2016 01:23 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
But the newer campaigns are a bit less formulaic in their progress (I'm talking about the campaigns themselves here, not the lore behind them!
Fully disagree, I've never felt more smothered. I played Necro and Haven campaigns (what worked of them anyway), and it's like the developers were holding my hand the entire time. Not once did I had to think about how I should accomplish my objective, because it was so RPG in nature that it didn't needed any strategy. Get here, go there, build this, get those creatures, and if you do then you'll get all these rewards that'll help in your final encounter. It's the idiot-proof recipe to victory, no intelligence required.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 12, 2016 01:25 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 01:37, 12 Sep 2016.
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Momo said:
2) lore =/= plot, as I said some times. We're speaking of lore here, right? The plots of HoMM3's campaigns were as linear as it gets, but we weren't speaking about that. As I already said, you can tell excellent stories with an Ashan setting, just like you can tell awful stories with a setting on Axeoth etc.
But I was talking about plot (campaign experience). In my opinion the theme and setting of Ashan is fine to tell stories in, so I do not think it is fair that the setting is attacked and not the actual problem: the badly developed & implemented games.
Momo said:
3) if you discuss an intellectual product such as a fantasy lore, as I said, there is some degree of objectivity. You cannot call Ashan's lore more "fleshed out" with the tons of materials you have on the old HOMM universe.
Again, we are confusing things here. If you asked me which book I would prefer to buy and read, I would immediately say one based on the old universe (or better make it a series, there is enough material out there).
When it comes to visual implementation in a Heroes game however, then Ashan wins hands-down. The lore is more "shallow" than in the old stories, yes, but they have done a lot of good work in fleshing out the art, units etc. in a way that is much more consistent than the (too chaotic in that sense) old universe. The same applies to the way that the story is told in the campaigns in my opinion, the transfer story --> game has worked much better for me in that regard.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 12, 2016 02:02 AM |
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even if I will likely agree with it and thus not be able to add much, I would certainly like to read your proposed post breaking Ashan down Momo, if it's not too time-consuming to write that is, I'm always curious to see an in-depth perspective from someone who debates intelligently and eloquently lol
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 12, 2016 07:45 AM |
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Stevie said:
SoilBurn said:
But the newer campaigns are a bit less formulaic in their progress (I'm talking about the campaigns themselves here, not the lore behind them!
Fully disagree, I've never felt more smothered. I played Necro and Haven campaigns (what worked of them anyway), and it's like the developers were holding my hand the entire time. Not once did I had to think about how I should accomplish my objective, because it was so RPG in nature that it didn't needed any strategy. Get here, go there, build this, get those creatures, and if you do then you'll get all these rewards that'll help in your final encounter. It's the idiot-proof recipe to victory, no intelligence required.
That's actually what I love campaigns in H7 , no offense, we just have pretty different preferencies. Campaign should imho work exactly as you describe, with these RPG elements, and it's one of the things which make them significantly different to the rest of the game. If there is a campaign you have to just conquer all enemies cities in, except for there might be some story nobody cares about (because without any scripted events, it's very hard to build a good story), it's almost the same as playing skirmish, MP ...
I hope it's also clear the way how the campaigns work has nothing to do with the lore itself.
____________
Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
