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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 02, 2015 08:34 PM |
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lol, I loved the elaborate story and text of Heroes 4, not only because it could be skipped with the touch of a button if desired, but equally because it gave us a earnest and mature explanation of such themes as:
the apocalypse; betrayal; cosmic philosophy; fanaticism; free will; genocide; good and evil; martyrdom; mass slavery; refugeeism and naturism, violation (including rape); and much much more
Terry Ray could have conveyed those stories in dialogue format, though, they would probably stand up just as well given his talent
you want a mindless skirmish, well the desperately low budget Heroes 4 expansions are right up your alley, but in Heroes 5 all we get is a cutscene with puppets yelling slogans like "Griffin eternal", "Asha uses all" and "casts random spell" at each other, and in Heroes 6, well, good luck to you even figuring out where to begin with that trainwreck of a narrative lol
and you, Sandro400, are literally no more educated than Galaad and Stevie are on this matter, you've all three met the creator of Might&Magic himself and your credentials as insiders are equal, so excuse me if I take your weird devil's advocate rhetoric for exactly what it is lol
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 08:36 PM |
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Galaad said:
I swear on my honor I dislike Ashan primarily because I find this universe to be perfectly contemptible.
Mate I never said anything about you personally. I have no reason to not trust you on this matter. You're a rare case of opponent to whom I might have honorable conversation.
It's just that you used the word "people", and people in general, IMO, don't care about quality of Ashan. Or, should I say, they will find everything in Ashan as poor quality thing exactly because it's Ashan and not, let's say, Enroth.
verriker said:
and you, Sandro400, are literally no more educated than Galaad and Stevie are on this matter, you've all three met the creator of Might&Magic himself
Oh no, I haven't had the honor to meet JVC in person. Or... did you give Erwan a promotion? ^^
Actually, I can't force you to believe me, I just hope that my position of "truth lies in between" and "presumption of innocence" are rational and logical enough.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 08:41 PM |
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HoMM 4 touches many different topics but none of them is in any way deeply analized or maturely expnalaited- it is ok but nth more than casual low or middle fantasy that really tries hard to sound as really important but just uses some themes as part of story, that is all
in that part i find Ashan as more honest- it tries harss in oter departments (religion, slogans and some stupid sounding idioms) but both stories can be enjoyable
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 08:50 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:50, 02 Apr 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Aha, so no arguments here. Ok, just as expected.
There isn't any need for an argument because you've provided none against my quotation of ELB. You just ad-hoc stated that it doesn't prove anything. Way to go about "arguments", lol.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted April 02, 2015 08:55 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 20:58, 02 Apr 2015.
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JotunLogi said:
touches many different topics but none of them is in any way deeply analized or maturely expnalaited
Unfortunately Ashan does not really do these things either at least I have never seen it.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 08:57 PM |
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Stevie said:
There isn't any need for an argument because you've provided none against my quotation of ELB. You just ad-hoc stated that it doesn't prove anything. Way to go about "arguments", lol.
Did he say he answers personally for these things? No.
Did he say he can veto anything? No.
Did he say he may directly influence and force things through concerning something that does not relate to Ashan? No.
You will have a hard time trying to find these 3 sentences in his quote. But you may (and quite possibly will) try, so... you're welcome.
You may consider this as a challenge of sorts - try to do the impossible.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 02, 2015 08:59 PM |
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in response to the idea that fans complain about Ashan simply because it's not Enroth or Axeoth, perhaps another ELB quotation overflowing with hypocrisies and broken promises would remind you why some of us aren't exactly cheerleading Ubisoft and their awesome and successful reboot, lol
http://forums-de.ubi.com/archive/index.php/t-78187.html
Quote:
As a result the consistency between all the M&M games was a little weak and the overall background was vague, if not flat-out confusing at times. We want to have a single, deep world that's consistent across the board and has layers of story and content that players can just dive into.
Quote:
Let us say that it's time for Dorothy to ride the dark whirlwind and leave the gentle light-hearted fantasy of Axeoth behind. Ahead lies a world of blood and shadows, of jagged blades and voracious flames, of sweet lies and bitter poison...
That's where we're taking you, and the best part is, you'll gonna ask for more 
Quote:
There's an awful lot of backstory, culture and history in the world we've created, and we want to give you a chance to explore it. This is, of course, another way of saying we want to share all of the cool stuff we've been coming up with, because, well, it's cool and we're just naturally both a couple of show-offs. It's still cool, though. Honest.
Quote:
I think that the best praise we could get for this new universe is that it "feels strong and it feels real".
All of the different factions have very good reasons to justify their existence and their ongoing struggles with the rival nations.
All of the characters have legitimate motivations and credible mindsets.
The drama is tight, focused on a long chain of major events that covers millennia of spoken myths and written history.
Everything is related. Every action has its consequences, sometimes hundreds of years later.
And the Magic is there, stronger than ever and ready to lead you to places you've never seen before.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 09:03 PM |
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Like Stevie correctly says. Erwan himself said :"It's my fault, and I apologize, for H6 so I hope you like H7 better" ... more or less. It's not eaxct quote, but that's what this means. As far as Ashan universe and "dark story where noone is good or evil" goes, he prety much said: "This is my story and my world. If you don't like it ... deal with it."
Surely you won't say Erwan is wrong with what he said? I mean ... That would be absurd.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 02, 2015 09:04 PM |
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JotunLogi said:
HoMM 4 touches many different topics but none of them is in any way deeply analized or maturely expnalaited- it is ok but nth more than casual low or middle fantasy that really tries hard to sound as really important but just uses some themes as part of story, that is all
in that part i find Ashan as more honest- it tries harss in oter departments (religion, slogans and some stupid sounding idioms) but both stories can be enjoyable
if there is games that uses these as themes (though that would be generous, it's more like plot-device) it's the Ashan games. What does religion mean? well, it's a category everyone belongs to because it's decided with species. that's all religion does (oh and gives magical powers because dragons). nowhere do they ever take a look what religion mean to these people. it's only there to explain some stuff (look, your horse can walk on water now because Shalassa!). compare that to h4 where there is an entire campaign all about a woman having to rebuild (key element in all campaigns) some undefined sense of order by banding a bunch of lost and uncertain poor sods under her banner. she doesn't want to be in charge and the game explore how being thrust into a role of leadership against her will impacts her not only on a personal level, but also what this means for this blooming nation as a whole. nothing in Ashan ever comes close to this sort of exploration or analysis.
sure, Irina *might've* been raped, but it never has an impact on her or what she is doing. it just happens (as a background event mind you) to give her an excuse to invade the wolf duchy. how does that even compare?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 09:11 PM |
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verriker said:
As a result the consistency between all the M&M games was a little weak and the overall background was vague, if not flat-out confusing at times. We want to have a single, deep world that's consistent across the board and has layers of story and content that players can just dive into.
He dared to say that the Old Universe lacked "consistency and background"... it's an opinion of his. I do not agree on background - it was rich - but the consistency really could use some perfection (as does Ashan actually). And I agree on flat-out confusing at times, it's true IMO.
Though this:
Quote:
The drama is tight, focused on a long chain of major events that covers millennia of spoken myths and written history.
And this:
Quote:
Let us say that it's time for Dorothy to ride the dark whirlwind and leave the gentle light-hearted fantasy of Axeoth behind. Ahead lies a world of blood and shadows, of jagged blades and voracious flames, of sweet lies and bitter poison...
Are propaganda crap actually. My opinion, ofc.
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Ah, @Zombie...
Quote:
Surely you won't say Erwan is wrong with what he said? I mean ... That would be absurd.
Ofc not, the thing is, he didn't say "H6 is my fault". On Ashan part - no doubts, I never denied it.
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Oh, now I hope you people will believe my words. I wasn't lying when I told ya that H6 has sold very good.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 02, 2015 09:15 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Like Stevie correctly says. Erwan himself said :"It's my fault, and I apologize, for H6 so I hope you like H7 better"
We could speak a bit about Heroes 6, and while I don't recall the exact phrasing, it was more around these lines:
Quote:
Heroes 6 did not turn out as we wanted it to be, and as such we were disappointed by the result, but it sold 2 million copies, so we can make Heroes 7
Roughly.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 02, 2015 09:18 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 21:18, 02 Apr 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Oh, now I hope you people will believe my words. I wasn't lying when I told ya that H6 has sold very good.
I don't believe what I am reading. How is this a good thing?
+ Did you see any proof? I didn't.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Galaad said:
+ Did you see any proof? I didn't.
Try to put things together.
H6 being a crap is a thing we all universaly agree (very rare thing indeed). But, after this crap, we have: DoC, Heroes Online, H3-remake, and now H7. Mate, this could've been impossible if H6 failed on market.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 02, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 21:25, 02 Apr 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
He dared to say that the Old Universe lacked "consistency and background"... it's an opinion of his. I do not agree on background - it was rich - but the consistency really could use some perfection (as does Ashan actually). And I agree on flat-out confusing at times, it's true IMO.
and I didn't say it was a lie, but it is a complete and utter hypocrisy lol
Sandro400 said:
Are propaganda crap actually. My opinion, ofc.
fair enough, my benefit of the doubt opinion is that he wouldn't try to propagandize us and genuinely believes the trash he makes is of high quality lol
by the way, Heroes 4 sold very well too off the back of Heroes 3. Heroes 6 could equally sell well off the back of Heroes 5. sales don't correlate to quality, or I'm sure we'd all be joining the Call of Duty fans instead 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 09:25 PM |
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verriker said:
and I didn't say it was a lie, but it is a complete and utter hypocrisy lol
fair enough, my benefit of the doubt opinion is that he wouldn't try to propagandize us and genuinely believes the trash he makes is of high quality lol
And I didn't say that you say that it was a lie ^^ I don't think it's a hypocrisy. It was said... when H5 was released, no? Or even before that? If Erwan would say those words today as well, then it's a hypocrisy in my book. But he acknowledges some of his mistakes. Hey, that's a progress. Better than "my creation is the masterpiece, screw you all".
That's another possibility ^^
P.S.: sales ofc do not = quality, I said that back in the day when I first told of H6's amazing sells. You see, I'm a rather consistent man 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 02, 2015 09:28 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Try to put things together.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 02, 2015 09:28 PM |
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Quote:
"my creation is the masterpiece, screw you all"
but that's what he's saying between the lines, or at least what it looks like 
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 09:29 PM |
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I believe it was after he created the setting and before Heroes 5 was released - and quite honestly, if Marzhin's opinion is anything to rely on, he had quite good reason to believe in his work - problem is that these documents that Marzhin had access to didn't quite become public, should one try to find some more depth behind the Ashan.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted April 02, 2015 09:30 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 21:31, 02 Apr 2015.
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Quote:
"my creation is the masterpiece, screw you all"
I was getting this vibe watching him talk about it in the interview.
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 09:30 PM |
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Come on people, if someone does not like Ashan- fine, there are reasons for. But overhyping HoMM 4 and old story in general in order to prove that it is superior?
That example with Emilia Nighthaven from order campaign and generally all moral depth- it is same level as in comic books as spiderman. "With great poweer there is great responsibility" and some cheap examples mixed up with action and some even cheaper proves. It only tries to be deeper and more sofisticated than it is in reality.
'she doesn't want to be in charge and the game explore how being thrust into a role of leadership against her will impacts her not only on a personal level, but also what this means for this blooming nation as a whole'- just no. There is no interaction between her and her subordinates, there is no thinking about the impact she causes or contemplating about the future- and even if, it is obvious what the protagonist will do and which pat will be chosen.
She is not even evolving and changes- or at least nth can be seen in her dialogues. The only person who has changed was from nature campaign- but I have never felt it as natural
What meant with Ashn- it does not try to deeply analize people and give psychologiacal portrait and I find it good- cause it is easy to overdo it. What I have mention is what Ashan overdoes- and religion is overdone.
I am not Ashan supporter but I do not see it as bad or worse than previous universe created by NWC. They are different and it is easy to point their weaknesses.
for me the best campaigns are the main ffrom HoMM 2 and especially HoMM 3- universal, almost like fables, not need to know all the universe but gripping and detailed if read all the text, even with some twist plots and interesting characters. It is not overwritten. The only flaws that it has- it is too easy  But that is not the fault of the story
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
