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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 12:18 PM |
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Elvin said:
You know that the phoenix is about resurrection and self-destruction(possibly at the same time?  ) but you don't know what the arcane bird is about. I'd love it if it amplified the elemental spells targeting adjacent units like the elemental gargoyle.
yes but phoenix is as connected to the ressurection as it is to fire. whether they ignore that or not.
taking a very important charecteristic out, so it cannot contradict the sylvan lore is just wrong.
I will remind you how you felt about two-headed cerberi. a "moon phoenix"(i won't say moonix, it's ridiculous) is exactly the same.
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Ehlesgens
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 14, 2014 12:28 PM |
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I think the pheonix is not made of fire, but of Asha's energies (primordial/spiritual), correct me if I'm wrong 
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted September 14, 2014 12:39 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
yes but phoenix is as connected to the ressurection as it is to fire. whether they ignore that or not.
taking a very important charecteristic out, so it cannot contradict the sylvan lore is just wrong.
I will remind you how you felt about two-headed cerberi. a "moon phoenix"(i won't say moonix, it's ridiculous) is exactly the same.
They are free to design Phoenix as they wish and that's actually a good thing. There is nothing more boring than sticking with the original inspiration to the point. It kills diversity and they actually did a good job with moonix.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 01:05 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 13:06, 14 Sep 2014.
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blizz said:
ChrisD1 said:
yes but phoenix is as connected to the ressurection as it is to fire. whether they ignore that or not.
taking a very important charecteristic out, so it cannot contradict the sylvan lore is just wrong.
I will remind you how you felt about two-headed cerberi. a "moon phoenix"(i won't say moonix, it's ridiculous) is exactly the same.
They are free to design Phoenix as they wish and that's actually a good thing. There is nothing more boring than sticking with the original inspiration to the point. It kills diversity and they actually did a good job with moonix.
they are walking a very fine line and in my eyes they actually crossed it. how would you feel about unicorn with 3 horns? would you call that inspiring? did you enjoy the two headed cerberi?
you can take an aspect of a creature and change it to fit the fantasy lore,but its original characteristics must be untouchable.
efreeti were djinnns of hell. they didn't change their basic characteristics, but added a twist. now that was diverse and unique.
the fact that something original is not changed does not mean the that it is boring. implementation is the key here not changing everything that makes the creature what it is.
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted September 14, 2014 01:18 PM |
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Edited by blizz at 13:19, 14 Sep 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
they are walking a very fine line and in my eyes they actually crossed it. how would you feel about unicorn with 3 horns? would you call that inspiring? did you enjoy the two headed cerberi?
you can take an aspect of a creature and change it to fit the fantasy lore,but its original characteristics must be untouchable.
efreeti were djinnns of hell. they didn't change their basic characteristics, but added a twist. now that was diverse and unique.
the fact that something original is not changed does not mean the that it is boring. implementation is the key here not changing everything that makes the creature what it is.
It doesn't have to be untouchable, there are no legal restrictions that would prevent them from doing it. Of course they won't go that far because they realize the Heroes community would flip over it. On the other hand, if this was a completely new game, no one would care.
Anyway I think Phoenixes main characteristic is the rebirth. They won't touch that but considering moon themed phoenix was rather well accepted in H6, they should not hesitate using that design again.
I didn't mind 2 headed cerberi either.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 01:21 PM |
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I did mind.
And I did mind the H6 Phoenix.
It's either a Phoenix or it isn't. Phoenix means fire. If it's not fire, it's not Phoenix. Simple as that.
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted September 14, 2014 01:24 PM |
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Stevie said:
I did mind.
And I did mind the H6 Phoenix.
It's either a Phoenix or it isn't. Phoenix means fire. If it's not fire, it's not Phoenix. Simple as that.
I meant in general it was pretty well accepted, sure there were some people upset but nothing close to cerberus outrage. I personally would only like to see Phoenix appear in Sylvan H7 in moon form. I think that's also intended by developers.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 14, 2014 01:29 PM |
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For me, the greatest problem with two-headed cerber is not two heads, but the wrong name. In Greek mythology, two-headed dog, which was son of Typhon and Echidna is called "Orthos". Those two creatures are completely different and the name of one should not be used while describing the second one.
Concerning phoenixes - since in Ashan there are 7 schools of magic, and each school of magic descending from Asha's child has its own elemetal, hence Phoenix has become the elemental of Prime magic. That's why I don't want them in Sylvan - they should be neutral, like all other elementals. In my opinion, Phoenix in Sylvan may also provide acceptance to elementals in fractions, and this would be simply disatrous in terms of creativity.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 01:36 PM |
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blizz said:
Stevie said:
I did mind.
And I did mind the H6 Phoenix.
It's either a Phoenix or it isn't. Phoenix means fire. If it's not fire, it's not Phoenix. Simple as that.
I personally would only like to see Phoenix appear in Sylvan H7 in moon form..
You mean you would like to see a flying unit with the power of the moon, with a rebirth ability.It might be a bird or a bird-like/nature creature. And i would like that too. but this is not a phoenix!! i think they intened for a creature like that but in the end they said "lets play with nostalgia and call it a phoenix".
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 01:42 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
You mean you would like to see a flying unit with the power of the moon, with a rebirth ability.It might be a bird or a bird-like/nature creature. And i would like that too. but this is not a phoenix!! i think they intened for a creature like that but in the end they said "lets play with nostalgia and call it a phoenix".
In Ashan universe they are phoenixes. I think that's enough.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 01:53 PM |
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Arugaf said:
ChrisD1 said:
You mean you would like to see a flying unit with the power of the moon, with a rebirth ability.It might be a bird or a bird-like/nature creature. And i would like that too. but this is not a phoenix!! i think they intened for a creature like that but in the end they said "lets play with nostalgia and call it a phoenix".
In Ashan universe they are phoenixes. I think that's enough.
H5 begs to differ. and moon-fire aura in H6? yeah ok not real fire, but still anything blazing in a forest is not cool. if fire is not a key aspect to the phoenix i don't know what it is!
and if fire was swapped for it being a magic being(bird). sylvan does not scream magic.
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 02:08 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
if fire is not a key aspect to the phoenix i don't know what it is!
It's life.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 02:25 PM |
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Arugaf said:
ChrisD1 said:
if fire is not a key aspect to the phoenix i don't know what it is!
It's life.
it's life TOO. as. phonixes have 2 KEY aspects.
imagine a phoenix with its fire aspect but not its rebirth aspect. everyone could say that hey in ashan phoenixes are just fire creatures!
would you like that?
what i am trying to explain is that, objectivelly, and everywhere you look, this creature is marked for its fire AND life nature EQUALLY.
you cannot take either of those away. It's distortion, not diversity.
Add to a phoenix an armor or another aspect, like prime magic and then it's diverse. H6 phoenixes did not create an uproar because they were not tied to a faction.
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 02:35 PM |
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Stevie said:
Phoenix means fire. If it's not fire, it's not Phoenix. Simple as that.
One of the descriptions is that the Phoenix die in fire and then it's reborn from the ashes. That doesn't necessary mean that the bird is on fire during its life. But there are variety of other descriptions for the Phoenix as well.
Educate yourself a little
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 14, 2014 03:10 PM |
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Considering that DoC named H6 phoenix as moon phoenix gave me hope that there could somehow be a sun phoenix. After all there is a wyvern for every element lol..
My point is, they could create a beautiful design and one that would not be similar to the H6 phoenix. After all the thunderbird in pirates of the savage sea was a slightly edited phoenix model. Obviously that was a matter of limited resources and it would have to change if it appeared in a new game.
And if there is a bird that fits academy it is the roc. It was there in the wizard's introduction and it is part of the Arabian culture. Sadly, the only special thing about it is that it is huge and it has long been used as the thunderbird's unupgraded form so that's out. I would have probably liked some kind of huge construct as an academy champion but the titans themselves are constructs in Ashan.. The reason I support a magical bird is because it really fits the wizard's elegance and style. The genie would also fit, considering the first couple of games and the lore. In fact I'd love that but I'm not sure they are supposed to be that powerful in Ashan. Would be awesome though..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted September 14, 2014 03:31 PM |
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Phoenix = Ashes = Dead woods = Sylvan
Everything is logical
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 14, 2014 03:33 PM |
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Not really. But as long as the phoenix is not covered in flames 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted September 14, 2014 03:34 PM |
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The best explanation
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 14, 2014 03:36 PM |
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Galaad said:
TDL said:
AND I WANT EFREETI BACK!
Hear, hear !
Elvin said:
Also, behemoths do exist in Ashan. Marzhin has mentioned that he likes them so who knows  If you ask me it is high time they made a comeback. A proper comeback, not like those H4 hairy apes..
YES PLEASE
Elvin said:
Considering that DoC named H6 phoenix as moon phoenix gave me hope that there could somehow be a sun phoenix. After all there is a wyvern for every element lol..
My point is, they could create a beautiful design and one that would not be similar to the H6 phoenix. After all the thunderbird in pirates of the savage sea was a slightly edited phoenix model. Obviously that was a matter of limited resources and it would have to change if it appeared in a new game.
I hope Ubisoft doesn't screw it and, in case of Phoenix in Sylvan, make them properly and different enough from Academy Magic Birds.
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted September 14, 2014 04:02 PM |
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Valen-Teen said:
Phoenix = Ashes = Dead woods = Sylvan
Everything is logical
Depends which angle to look at
Phoenix = Ashes = Dead woods = DEAD woods
or
Phoenix = Ashes = Rebirth = Ressurection = New life
But still i don't think they fit Sylvan anyways
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