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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 25, 2015 08:58 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 21:01, 25 Jul 2015.
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jhb said:
TL;DR: Randomness is awesome, excess of output randomness can be bad.
Except heroes 3 solved that problem. There was a lot of output randomness but it was also something you could easily manipulate and as such it turned into a tool. You have (limited) control over it. It's an investment and wasn't game breaking, partly because they weren't that impactful and partly because you had to sacrifice something else to get the most out of it. That's good game design.
EDIT:
how did luck even work in H4? some attacks has a clover on it but i have no idea what it actually meant...
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 25, 2015 09:08 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
how did luck even work in H4? some attacks has a clover on it but i have no idea what it actually meant...
It was about decreasing damage. When the unit has good luck, it has the chance that the attack's damage is reduced (likely halved) when the clover sign appears. On the other hand, having bad luck means taking more damage.
Practically, it is mirrored, comparing its previous games.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 25, 2015 09:08 PM |
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@Kiryu
I was talking in general. I'm not mentioning any specific heroes game.
"There was a lot of output randomness but it was also something you could easily manipulate"
If what you are telling is right, then it was balanced, not an excess. That's my point.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 25, 2015 09:17 PM |
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jhb said:
@Kiryu
I was talking in general. I'm not mentioning any specific heroes game.
"There was a lot of output randomness but it was also something you could easily manipulate"
If what you are telling is right, then it was balanced, not an excess. That's my point.
Didn't mean anything by it, just saying H3 had a good answer how to implement it well 
EnergyZ said:
It was about decreasing damage. When the unit has good luck, it has the chance that the attack's damage is reduced (likely halved) when the clover sign appears. On the other hand, having bad luck means taking more damage.
Practically, it is mirrored, comparing its previous games.
that's what i thought... Man, luck/bad luck did not feel very impactful in that game. Just some extra icon with the damage rather than everything pausing as a giant horseshoe is saying "snow's about to go down"! No wonder i never went for it in 4.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 25, 2015 09:21 PM |
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jhb said:
I think PROJ talked about that in the post about dispel.
Oh please, according to PROJ's pov homm3 is a horrible, horrible game. 
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 25, 2015 09:23 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
No wonder i never went for it in 4.
The luck skill did not exist in H4.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 25, 2015 09:26 PM |
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Edited by jhb at 21:39, 25 Jul 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
Didn't mean anything by it, just saying H3 had a good answer how to implement it well
I understood, no worries.
Galaad said:
Oh please, according to PROJ's pov homm3 is a horrible, horrible game.
Doesn't mean that he can't have something interesting to say. And what he say about h3 is his pov, not mine.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 25, 2015 09:34 PM |
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Luck&Morale were hugely toned down in H4. I mean, Morale only made the creature act first, no extra addition or anything like that. Even worse, Mirth/Sorrow/etc set the target with max/min morale/luck, ignoring any bonuses you had. it was so dumb...
In any case, the so called "input" randomness have been always far more impactful than "output" randomness in Heroes game, by a million miles. Rarely a game will be decided by a luck/morale/ability trigger, but rather your hero build (skills & perks offered), what monsters spawned in your initial area, artifacts, treasure rewards...
PS: Heroes will be never a balanced game, I don't think we should focus on this aspect of the game, it would take away what makes this series so fun to play.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 25, 2015 09:43 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
that's what i thought... Man, luck/bad luck did not feel very impactful in that game. Just some extra icon with the damage rather than everything pausing as a giant horseshoe is saying "snow's about to go down"! No wonder i never went for it in 4.
Well there ain't much that wasn't changed in the game. Makes it suck, but that's what one can expect from a dev company on the brink of extinction, I guess.
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 25, 2015 09:44 PM |
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Would it be better if each hero class could begin the game with 3 open slots in his pie, meaning the racial and two more that define his class.
Diplomacy would not be a starting skill for any class and thus in multiplayer could be banned from leveling.
The rest 7 skills (? - i don't recall how many skills can be active in the pie, there are the 3 to get to grand master, 3 to middle level - ?) can be chosen randomly while leveling. I don't know how one could get the grandmaster skills but then again, there could be a possible middle ground there as well.
Grandmaster skills could be made to require two adjacent branches to master level to unlock. That would also mean skill position in the pie becomes relevant and important.
-That means much more work and balancing because how for example could you make a skill for Air Magic / Paragon for example and so on.
-But such a system could be semi-fixed / semi-random allowing for interesting builds and unpredictability while giving you a main structure to work on.
Dunno if it makes sense or if it would even work really. I am in no way so deep in the whole issue as you guys are. Trying to help though as best i can.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 25, 2015 09:54 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 21:56, 25 Jul 2015.
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Storm-Giant said:
PS: Heroes will be never a balanced game, I don't think we should focus on this aspect of the game, it would take away what makes this series so fun to play.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, however, the people in charge seem to have different philosophy:
MMH7 dev blog said:
Balancing is a long process, especially in a game like Heroes where it is a key feature of the experience. This is a top priority for us and for the final game .Contrary to Heroes VI, we have powerful and flexible tools to help us balance the game.
Is not for nothing I keep shouting and soar my throat to death. At this point and stage of development, there is no coming back, and we can only bet on the game's moddability now. As Salamandre pointed out, the game can still work out if we are able to modify it according to our taste (and imo, make it how it should be in the first place, or in order words, fix it). But goddammit, how outraged I am.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted July 25, 2015 10:01 PM |
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Gryphs said:
kiryu133 said:
No wonder i never went for it in 4.
The luck skill did not exist in H4.
It did. It was imbued along with the Leadership skill.
"Leadership - Tactics Secondary Skill
Grandmaster Leadership Increases morale and luck of all friendly creatures.
Basic: +1 morale, +1 luck.
Advanced: +2 morale, +2 luck.
Expert: +3 morale, +3 luck.
Master: +4 morale, +4 luck. Requires Advanced Tactics.
Grandmaster: +5 morale, +5 luck. Requires Expert Tactics."
And although the icon was subtle, which was something important because it could trigger much more often than in previous games (so, having that rainbow or horseshoe showing all the time would be just as annoying as the long animations from H7), it was of extremely importance. They simply divided the fact of morale would be an offensive advantage (acting first or waiting to be the last), and luck would be a defensive advantage.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 25, 2015 10:04 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
In any case, the so called "input" randomness have been always far more impactful than "output" randomness in Heroes game, by a million miles.
Well, like I said, I don't think input randomness is a problem, not even the output one. What I think is excess of output R. can end up being bad in games.
Storm-Giant said:
PS: Heroes will be never a balanced game.
I agree with that to some extent, when we use the word "balanced" it shouldn't taken literally, imo. The perfectly balanced game is like an utopia, it can be used as a theoretical goal, but what we have in practice are acceptable intervals.
And I also think that an obsessive pursuit for "balance" can end up cutting part of the fun.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 25, 2015 10:20 PM |
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jhb said:
And I also think that an obsessive pursuit for "balance" can end up cutting part of the fun.
Duh, why else do we have the three-tier instead of seven-tier (if not higher) system in the first place?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 25, 2015 10:28 PM |
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One can't have true balance unless everyone is exactly the same and that's no fun. Especially in a game like heroes where big differences is one of the biggest appeals and imbalances are possible to overcome with preparations, skill and a little luck. Input luck to be precise
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted July 25, 2015 11:50 PM |
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jhb said:
Storm-Giant said:
PS: Heroes will be never a balanced game.
I agree with that to some extent, when we use the word "balanced" it shouldn't taken literally, imo. The perfectly balanced game is like an utopia, it can be used as a theoretical goal, but what we have in practice are acceptable intervals.
And I also think that an obsessive pursuit for "balance" can end up cutting part of the fun.
Balance in a war game is completely off the balance, actually. Nature, usually, balance itself after years, but this game is simply the opposite thing. You are forcing your faction (thus all your units, animals etc) into foreign lands and vice-versa. It's not about balance, but about unbalancing everything. A foreign organism lumbering strong and free on a weaker land is bound to be unbalanced and should stay so. And going against this tide, they try to balance all factions in a similar matter making it all dull.
Sometimes a foreign element will be weaker, sometimes stronger, but never balanced, specially when this element is fighting its way to spread its boundaries more and more.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 25, 2015 11:59 PM |
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jhb said:
Storm-Giant said:
PS: Heroes will be never a balanced game.
I agree with that to some extent, when we use the word "balanced" it shouldn't taken literally, imo. The perfectly balanced game is like an utopia, it can be used as a theoretical goal, but what we have in practice are acceptable intervals.
Well of course, a perfect balance in unreachable...but I wasn't talking about any theoretical goal, no. Allow me to rephrase what I said to:
Heroes will be never a competitive balanced game.
Heroes can't and will never be a competitive game like StarCraft, Counter Strike, Hearthstone, DotA, League of Legends or any of those. It simply can't because it depends on way too many variables, plus randomness. Hell, every released Heroes has between 5 and 9 completely different factions, with different creatures abilities and the like. It's too much...
What do devs must do is to make sure there are no auto-win things (traditional Necromancy, for example), yet still keeping the game fun. Because that's what Heroes is about. Fighting mythological armies in a chess-like board, conquering the overworld and having fun.
jhb said:
And I also think that an obsessive pursuit for "balance" can end up cutting part of the fun.
Yup yup yup.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted July 26, 2015 12:00 AM |
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At least I hope we can agree that there shouldn't be one faction that clearly dominates all others. All factions should have their chance to win if played right.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted July 26, 2015 12:05 AM |
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Marzhin said:
At least I hope we can agree that there shouldn't be one faction that clearly dominates all others. All factions should have their chance to win if played right.
That's the poit to whom I can relate.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted July 26, 2015 12:08 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
But the Dinasty bonuses were meant for Multiplayer? I call it bollocks
Not the way they were implemented in the final game, no. But the original idea was that you were able to carry over artifacts and experience between your online MP games, making multiplayer a sort of permanent campaign, with your custom heroes returning between games, etc.
It was not an uninteresting approach, I think.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
