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| Thread: Are we on the brink of general war between Europe and Russia? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted August 31, 2014 07:10 PM |
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Stevie said:
Syria? Afgan? Libya? Iraq?
just a tip of the iceberg really.
and while continuing this:
where were brave yanks who preach freedom for everyone, when they pledged support for Lithuanian Forest Brothers (resistance against soviet movement in 1940-1953), while the commies shipped people like cattle of to siberia?
oh right, because few of our guerilla leaders were so called "jewshooters". no help for those I suppose. let the commies deal with them, eh?
For once, I can agree with Stevie. America as one should not preach on what is wrong for another nation to do, when it's leaders had committed more war crimes than the rest of the world combined.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 07:13 PM |
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what the hell is going on in this thread?  
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted August 31, 2014 07:15 PM |
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Just bashing the US foreign policy and the idiots who rule over you my dear american comrades. move along, nothing to see here.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 07:18 PM |
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kipshasz said:
Just bashing the US foreign policy and the idiots who rule over you my dear american comrades. move along, nothing to see here.
lol, nobody rules over me. where do you get the notion that any human being is MY leader? 
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted August 31, 2014 07:24 PM |
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fred79 said:
kipshasz said:
Just bashing the US foreign policy and the idiots who rule over you my dear american comrades. move along, nothing to see here.
lol, nobody rules over me. where do you get the notion that any human being is MY leader?
if that would be true, there would already be a revolt against the imperialistic policies of your goverment.
I mean trully. you blokes are packing. with all the guns that are avaivable to you, surely you could pull it off with a bit of organising and crap.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 07:42 PM |
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everyone's waiting for someone else to make a move here.  nobody really wants to play hardball. besides, civil war would weaken our country long enough to be attacked by all the people who hate us.
honestly, though, it wouldn't matter. governments are made up of people. it is the positions in power, that cannot be trusted, when put in the hands of humans. replacing leaders, will only get you more of the same. there are too many pockets/bank accounts to line, too many mouths to feed, too much cocaine to snort off a hooker's ass.
no, nothing can really BE done. things just fluctuate, according to power, in government. nothing really changes. just different degrees of greed.
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Russia123
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 31, 2014 07:44 PM |
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[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsIcGL-qQ3c[/url]
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 07:45 PM |
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Muh Red Alert comrade 
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 07:49 PM |
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meh. china marches better.
see?
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 08:02 PM |
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Sure they do, with their pygmy nuts.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted August 31, 2014 08:18 PM |
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Quote:
When I tell you that you don't know nothing, I mean exactly things like the above. You are just not informed and you draw conclusions from concepts, not facts. There isn't really any point in arguing with that but I'll try once.
First, there is no voluntary join. There is propaganda, then the governments of the countries sign treaties to join NATO, then everything turns into a post factum story. I mentioned in the dedicated Ukrainian thread but I suppose I have to mention it here as well - in Bulgaria's case there was absolutely no form of social vote whether we should join NATO or not, we just had a few governments on Western funding who signed the documents and one day - good morning, you are now NATO members, rejoice. If there was such a vote, we would still be outside of the alliance, trust me on that. Nobody knows why exactly we need to be NATO members from national point of view, trust me on that too. The plan was (and still is) the same in Ukraine. Now it is probably easier to execute because Russia is the big monster that wants to eat the country but exactly because of that the big monster finds itself in an even greater need to eat the country to save itself.
Then, how exactly is the expansion a fiction? I suppose you can check the map for yourself, there's one in Wikipedia which even uses colour changes throughout the years. Here, I will link it for you. See any patterns? No? If not, then you also probably believe that Poland builds missile defenses against Iran. US missile defenses of course. Seriously, it doesn't take political education to spot things which are that obvious.
And finally - putting the entire blame on Russia is what the propaganda tries to achieve and obviously succeeds in. There isn't a single event in human history which is one man or one nation's fault, there are always other factors. Even without that general presumption, how exactly do you explain the presence of CIA in Ukraine ever since the Maidan events (and quite certainly before them, but of course that's not media stuff)? That's confirmed, you know. By Western sources. This confirmation aside, there was one completely official visit of the CIA chief in Kiev shortly after the interim government took power. In every "normal" scenario that would have caused a diplomatic outrage but at that time Russia was busy with its Crimean plans - which are a result of the whole mess, not an evil design which had been under construction for years.
Really, you don't even seem to grasp the basics of the whole **** that has been created in Ukraine and in Europe on broader scale. I'm not expecting you to know anything different from what your media throws at you, but I think you can use your brain for something more than theorizing around vague, one-sided ideas.
Obamacare was put into effect without the majority consent of the American people; that doesn't mean it was an aggressive decision (albeit I think it was a poor one). That's not the way democracies generally function. You don't hold a national vote on every decision. Just because most Bulgarian citizens at the time might not have agreed with joining NATO doesn't make it analogous to the military invasion of Crimea. Your government makes trade & political agreements all the time without your direct consent. And your example is weak because more Eastern Europeans are favorable towards the EU & NATO than what they were in years past. The opinions in this minutely-sized corner of the internet are far off from the average. In order to become more favorable to the West:
There is no prerequisite for you to agree with everything it does. You merely have to prefer them over Russia projecting itself over you. Independence and isolation isn't really an option, if even if you wish it were.
The CIA example is also moot. You're accusing me of something I never stated to begin with, which is that I'm trying to make this an absolute polemic. Also, for good or ill, intelligence agencies from major countries having a presence in countries of interest is a norm. You don't even need a verified source to say that the CIA was in Ukraine. You should have just assumed it as a matter of common sense before any of this developed.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 08:27 PM |
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Promoting fear.
Do not give into fear, it makes one act irrationally.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2014 08:31 PM |
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Sal said:
Sure they do, with their pygmy nuts.
LOLLLLL!!!! gold.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 31, 2014 09:43 PM |
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blizz & zenofex:
The disagreement between you two practically boils down to this: Is there a difference between the more direct invasions of Russia and the "persuasion and negotiation" of US. I'm quite sure, to Zenofex, the latter one sounds like "I'll make you an offer you cant refuse" (and a funny coincidence is when Marlon Brando refused the Oscar for his role of Don Corleone, he said that he saw no difference between the tactics of mafia and the US government). While, on the other hand, what Blizz comprehends is, good ol' trade and capitalist business as usual.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is a difference between direct invasion (which US has no problem with when it's the Middle-East) and "persuasion and negotiation" when it comes to the European democracies, however, that doesn't mean a lot of is still coercive on a bigger scale this way or the other. A super power can do a lot of manipulation using financial support, blackmail, economical sanctions etc etc in a weak democracy, without moving a martial finger.
Btw, Blizz has a very good point in mentioning the choice is between Russia and the West, not absolute freedom and the West. So, the population of Eastern-European countries may indeed have major pro-western masses. The main reason Turkey joined in the 50's, apart from the Westernization agenda, was that there was a serious fear of a Soviet invasion. Yet, I wouldn't be so sure the masses are directly decisive in such international matters this way or the other to begin with.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 01, 2014 08:09 AM |
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blizzardboy said:
Obamacare was put into effect without the majority consent of the American people; that doesn't mean it was an aggressive decision (albeit I think it was a poor one). That's not the way democracies generally function. You don't hold a national vote on every decision. Just because most Bulgarian citizens at the time might not have agreed with joining NATO doesn't make it analogous to the military invasion of Crimea. Your government makes trade & political agreements all the time without your direct consent. And your example is weak because more Eastern Europeans are favorable towards the EU & NATO than what they were in years past. The opinions in this minutely-sized corner of the internet are far off from the average. In order to become more favorable to the West:
There is no prerequisite for you to agree with everything it does. You merely have to prefer them over Russia projecting itself over you. Independence and isolation isn't really an option, if even if you wish it were.
The CIA example is also moot. You're accusing me of something I never stated to begin with, which is that I'm trying to make this an absolute polemic. Also, for good or ill, intelligence agencies from major countries having a presence in countries of interest is a norm. You don't even need a verified source to say that the CIA was in Ukraine. You should have just assumed it as a matter of common sense before any of this developed.
Obamacare is your internal matter entirely, it can easily be abolished by the next government. The membership in a military alliance is a much more complex matter which does not involve only your country. There is no need to preach how democracy functions because democracy has nothing to do with all this stuff. If there is a referendum if Bulgaria should stay in NATO right now, at this moment, the results will not be in favour of "let's stay, why not?" except if they are heavily manipulated.
Also, you don't seem to get how the governments in Eastern Europe function. Corruption here is the norm, not the exception. If a corrupt government signs a deal which the majority of the population does not approve of - which happens all the time - you don't really label that "democracy". Maybe it fits the US description of "external democracy" where every gang of criminals can rule over a country and be called democrats, as long as they are favourable to the US foreign policy, but not the general idea of that notion. The current Ukrainian government is exactly that - a gang of at the very least compromised politicians, led by a famous oligarch, which however the Western media and the US one in particular depicts as the good guys, no matter that they lead an open military campaign against their own population and preach all sorts of crap which no normal Western state will accept inside its own borders. The former government was no better for sure but its sins were of a different nature - they supported Russia. That's where the whole difference comes from. Most of the countries in Eastern Europe will be far better off if they balance between Russia and the West, they can gain many benefits from this, but you need independent governments for that purpose - and you can't have such when part of your ruling class is Russia's puppet and another part is a Western prostitute.
I don't understand what's moot about the CIA part. What do you think it does in Ukraine? Sells candies? Organizations like this do sabotages, organize coups, manipulate people, etc. Now, let's accept for a moment the heretical idea that the CIA is behind - or at least plays a big part in - the February events. Of course it has not orchestrated them entirely on its own, the criminals from the former government did enough on their own, but it did push them in the "right" direction. Remember that some German journalists published a material that the snipers on the Maidan who shot at the crowd were not all working for Yanukovych? That was actually unofficially stated even by some Western embassies, of course behind the scenes. Now, imagine that Russia has its own intelligence agency on the theater (surprise!) which sees all this and reports it to Moscow. How do you expect it to react to a staged coup in its backyard? Exchange Ukraine with Mexico and Russia with the US, if that will help you.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2014 10:04 AM |
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do you think the cia works alone, zenofex?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 01, 2014 11:38 AM |
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2014 11:54 AM |
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Why, yes, we are one step away from full scale war between Russia and Europa. To bad Merkel and Hollande can't get that
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2014 12:48 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Hardly, why?
i just get the impression that you think the u.s. runs everything. especially the bad things. if not, cool. if so, however, then i would point out that every well-developed country has a hand in the cookie jar, nearly all the time, in nearly every situation. one way or another.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 01, 2014 01:22 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 13:23, 01 Sep 2014.
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No, of course not. But in this situation only the US is in a position which either wins or loses nothing (in short term at least). Europe is ****ed either way. Same with Russia. Even the big mouths from UK have something to lose, although not nearly as much as, say, Germany or most of the Eastern European countries. So if I have to pick which intelligence agencies have the greatest participation in the events in Ukraine since the beginning of this year, I'd say they are CIA and FSB.
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