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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Should Ashan be scraped?
Thread: Should Ashan be scraped? This thread is 42 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 38 39 40 41 42 · «PREV / NEXT»
War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 09, 2015 04:39 PM

Galaad said:
I personally fail to see how posting twenty times a day "stop bashing on Ashan previous universe was no better" in here can be fruitful in any manner.

As opposed to saying "Everything Ashan sucks because it was created by Erwan, the False Prophet" at every opportunity, which is of course entirely reasonable and a fruitfull means of discussion.

Galaad said:
I also wanted to stress in humor can be water.

Not a phrase I am familiar with.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted April 09, 2015 05:14 PM

I fail to see why posting here more than once, as when you are giving your votes and explaining your points, is really necessary. It's clear that some have a way of thinking, others have another and no matter how different some may think, it's long gone the healthy argument which already defined the threshold where all the discussion that succeeded was really pointless. The intellectual warring is weary, sad and doesn't prove anything satisfactory to both sides. To make matters worst, the petty stuff carry over other threads and for what? The only thing that seems to outcome this mess is that people will never acknowledge others for their differences. I only hope that this behavior doesn't stretch on their personal lives.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 09, 2015 05:24 PM

War-overlord said:
As opposed to saying "Everything Ashan sucks because it was created by Erwan, the False Prophet" at every opportunity, which is of course entirely reasonable and a fruitfull means of discussion.

But I've changed my ways and learned my lesson, now I bow before the Great Spider Messiah Erwin de Bretonia.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted April 09, 2015 05:53 PM

So in short, you learned nothing and instead continue to bash the current universe and its creator, this time through mockery.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted April 09, 2015 06:07 PM

Sligneris said:
So in short, you learned nothing and instead continue to bash the current universe and its creator, this time through mockery.


only so much to be learned dude, after all we've played the games and formed an opinion based on those, which I'd say is pretty fair lol
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted April 10, 2015 09:37 PM

verriker said:
Sligneris said:
So in short, you learned nothing and instead continue to bash the current universe and its creator, this time through mockery.


only so much to be learned dude, after all we've played the games and formed an opinion based on those, which I'd say is pretty fair lol

i dont think ashan is responsible for the awful bugs and gameplay mistakes they did. ashan is not responsible for the skillwheel for example. other people played heroes 2 3 and 4 yet find ashan smsth less than the mother of all evils in this world.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 10, 2015 10:06 PM

ChrisD1 said:
i dont think ashan is responsible for the awful bugs and gameplay mistakes they did. ashan is not responsible for the skillwheel for example.

On one hand I agree with you, Ashan is not responsible for all the bad gameplay design decisions they've made, in fact it's perfectly possible to create a great Heroes game within Ashan, as shown with Heroes 5. When that's been said, in the last couple of games, they've let the lore of Ashan bind them to such a degree that it has directly influenced the game design. For instance, it has become a very central dogma in Ashan that there are seven elemental dragons with each their magic school, and this in terms puts limits on the skill design because a classic Heroes skill system falls apart if there are too many skills. So in fact I will say, yes we can indeed blame Ashan, or Ashan lore, or at least the degree to which the developers let themselves be bound by it, for the skillwheel!
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted April 10, 2015 10:27 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 22:28, 10 Apr 2015.

You know, I for one actually like these 7 magic schools - they definitely make more sense than a rather ridiculous Summoning magic from Heroes V

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted April 10, 2015 10:38 PM

ChrisD1 said:
i dont think ashan is responsible for the awful bugs and gameplay mistakes they did. ashan is not responsible for the skillwheel for example. other people played heroes 2 3 and 4 yet find ashan smsth less than the mother of all evils in this world.


I don't really disagree or even see where I said otherwise, the ideas that Ubisoft's gameplay is crap and that Ashan is crap are two separate theories where I'm concerned, doesn't mean I can't subscribe to both at the same time though lol

as Alci said, it's the Ubilimb team (such as Erwin for instance) and the approach that are responsible for bugs and bad design
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted April 10, 2015 10:42 PM

quickly moving back to the topic at hand...

should Ashan be scraped? i say yes, though not necessarily because Ashan is bad or anything, but because there is nothing that helps a (stale) franchise grow, improve and get fresh than a change of setting. this was true in earlier heroes-games (with varying levels of success, few linked to setting) and when done in different franchises, like in Wind Waker, it's almost always a god thing. meanwhile, when staying or re-using the same settings things can get stale or boring pretty quick, for example, h6, Twilight princess.

so yes, i would like Ashan to be scrapped but i would also say we shouldn't return to the old universe. make something new and exciting. change of setting means a new start and that will get the creative juices flowing
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 10, 2015 10:56 PM

kiryu133 said:
... though not necessarily because Ashan is bad or anything, but because there is nothing that helps a (stale) franchise grow, improve and get fresh than a change of setting.

I actually disagree. In all Heroes game until Heroes 6, I was completely clueless about what world the games took place in, what the lore was, etc. I was blissfully unaware, and the games got better for it, because on the bottomline, the world and universe was completely decoupled from the gameplay. The problem with H6 and H7 is not whether Ashan is good or bad - the problem is that the world has become so entwined in the game and gameplay that the two are no longer separate entities, and suddenly the gameplay starts to be dictated by the lore, which is a slide, because gameplay should always be dictated by what makes the better game, and only that. So frankly I don't think it matters what world the game is set in - I think what matters is the we need to get priorities straight - if you want to create great gameplay you don't shape the gameplay after the world, instead you create the gameplay, and then you can fill in the lore underneath it, as long as it doesn't interfere with the gameplay. And if your priority is to create great lore, then go write a god damn book and let someone else handle the game design.
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted April 10, 2015 11:06 PM

yeah, totally. what i'm saying is that changing setting (preferably deciding to what after you're done with the basic game concepts. game first-story fifth) helps with this. you have an easier time getting a good game if you're not tied to lore and this is easier if you don't have something earlier to adapt to.

that said, some games use different settings to say something or create a theme. h4 did that and it was (in the story department) a clear success. the change of setting allowed them to use the old one and the new to tell interesting stories that would not be possible otherwise. another example is majoras mask that used a strange and alien world that's at the same time eerily familiar in order to bring up themes of love and death in a way that would not be possible otherwise.

bottom line is that new settings helps in the creative process and if you start of a game knowing that lore is not set in stone, you can do anything with the mechanics and factions etc. even if it doesn't show for some people the effect should still be there.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted April 10, 2015 11:16 PM

alcibiades said:
kiryu133 said:
... though not necessarily because Ashan is bad or anything, but because there is nothing that helps a (stale) franchise grow, improve and get fresh than a change of setting.

I actually disagree. In all Heroes game until Heroes 6, I was completely clueless about what world the games took place in, what the lore was, etc. I was blissfully unaware, and the games got better for it, because on the bottomline, the world and universe was completely decoupled from the gameplay. The problem with H6 and H7 is not whether Ashan is good or bad - the problem is that the world has become so entwined in the game and gameplay that the two are no longer separate entities, and suddenly the gameplay starts to be dictated by the lore, which is a slide, because gameplay should always be dictated by what makes the better game, and only that. So frankly I don't think it matters what world the game is set in - I think what matters is the we need to get priorities straight - if you want to create great gameplay you don't shape the gameplay after the world, instead you create the gameplay, and then you can fill in the lore underneath it, as long as it doesn't interfere with the gameplay. And if your priority is to create great lore, then go write a god damn book and let someone else handle the game design.


sucks for you

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 10, 2015 11:17 PM

Yse, obviously you are right that it can save you a lot of awkward retconning to go to a new world.
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted April 12, 2015 07:15 PM

alcibiades said:
For instance, it has become a very central dogma in Ashan that there are seven elemental dragons with each their magic school, and this in terms puts limits on the skill design because a classic Heroes skill system falls apart if there are too many skills. So in fact I will say, yes we can indeed blame Ashan, or Ashan lore, or at least the degree to which the developers let themselves be bound by it, for the skillwheel!


anyone can retcon everything everywhere (looking at you ashan dungeon line up with all those inconsistencies just so H3 could be copied-pasted in h7).i dont see anyone from the fans having a problem with that so why not change the magic schools?they can easily be ignored or just put them into groups like h5.
so no, it's not ashan's lore but the devs' or whoever makes those decisions. it's just an excuse to hate because of the trauma H6 created to anyone who paid for this game(including me).

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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted April 12, 2015 07:58 PM
Edited by Zombi_Wizzard at 20:00, 12 Apr 2015.

@CrisD1:

Yep. I agree. It's not Ashan's fault - it's Ashan's creators fault that things are this way. Afterall, Ashan could very well be diferent. Lore could very well have no effect on other aspects of game. Green Dragon could very well fly (goddarn it ). As I said already, even if this universes name would not be Ashan, but something else, the IDEAS and DECISIONS behind it would need to change in order to be diferent. If they would be the same, then there's no point. It's dev's who made Ashan the way it is. And don't get me wrong, on paper it has POTENTIAL. That's right. If Ashan would be made diferent it would be good ... great even. But it's held back, because it does not live it's potential, but squanders it.

What I mean? Here: Erwan said he was inspired by "dark fantasy" and "Game of thrones" ... well - NO. The Ashan as I see it has nothing in common with that. It's as bright as it can be. They removed good and evil. But instead of "everything is grey" or "everyone is evil inside" - like dark fantasy, we have a situation where "everyone is good" Including Spider loving Sumerian morbid Budhists. But even so, the story TRIES TO CONVINCE us that we're in some sort of "grey area" and that it's "dark". It's as dark as Disney! And even some Disney cartoons are actualy darker than Ashan! Take that. And this is only one part of Ashan where it fails to live it's potential. You can go on and on about units, art, story (campaign) etc.

You realy want "game of thrones - type fantasy"? Try looking as Witcher or Dragon Age for inspiration. Or Path of Exile if you want even darker fantasy setting. Grey area? At least take notes from Skyrim. This version of Ashan is Disney level at best.

So ... ofcourse it would be diferent if Ashan would live to it's potnetial. But for this there are only 2 options: Ashan must change drasticaly - a meteor colides with it and wipes out most of life on Ashan, and 10.000 years in future, we have diferent version of Ashan. OR. All Dragon gods DIE! (Yes) and Ashan changes completley. Or....

Scrape Ashan, let the past be past. Acknowledge that it was important and big (even tho flawed) part of HoMM history, and start with new world fresh.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted April 12, 2015 08:35 PM

Well, not really. The grey thing is very much in effect. Just that we have been playing with the good sides of the respectives factions.

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markmasters
markmasters


Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
posted April 12, 2015 10:04 PM

Ashan could be fine.....if the story included the right events, plots, stories etc......

It al depends on the storywriters.

As an example look to Castlevania: Every Castlevania basicly is: be a hero, pwn Dracula

But almost every game has a different storyline which is quiet charming....

So I would not directly say to trash Ashan away although it has to work rly hard to be of interest

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 12, 2015 10:08 PM

Zombi_Wizzard said:
And even some Disney cartoons are actualy darker than Ashan!



Zombi_Wizzard said:
Scrape Ashan, let the past be past. Acknowledge that it was important and big (even tho flawed) part of HoMM history, and start with new world fresh.

I will tend to agree here.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 12, 2015 10:14 PM

GenyaArikado said:
Well, not really. The grey thing is very much in effect. Just that we have been playing with the good sides of the respectives factions.

Well as I see it, you're sort of contradicting yourself here. If there is a dark side of Ashan but it just doesn't come out in the games, that's effectively the same as there being no dark side at all. It's a fantasy world, so it only actually exists in the way it manifests itself in the games, so if games doesn't show no dark side, it effectively doesn't have a dark side.
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