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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Dungeon ~ Inferno
Thread: Dungeon ~ Inferno This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted September 30, 2014 03:40 PM

Actually gating should be kept since it makes sense for inferno to have it, but it needs to be tweaked/adjusted to be actually good.

Oh and more fire damage. Faster units. Hopefully Inferno gets to be playable for once from the start <.<
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 30, 2014 03:47 PM

Stormcaller said:
Oh and more fire damage. Faster units. Hopefully Inferno gets to be playable for once from the start <.<

Fire damage? Faster units?

That screams EFREETS
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NACHOOOO
NACHOOOO


Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
posted September 30, 2014 04:08 PM

Stormcaller said:
Actually gating should be kept since it makes sense for inferno to have it, but it needs to be tweaked/adjusted to be actually good.


This poll although a small sample size shows that an alarming percentage of heroes cult fans really don't like Inferno the way it is. Gating is one of the key mechanics of the faction, ifso facto scrap it. Start fresh, nothing wrong with trying a different faction ability, especially when you can really only go up from here
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
EPICUSDOOMICUS


Known Hero
posted September 30, 2014 04:10 PM

Storm-Giant said:
Stormcaller said:
Oh and more fire damage. Faster units. Hopefully Inferno gets to be playable for once from the start <.<

Fire damage? Faster units?

That screams EFREETS

Despite the fact that (as mentioned multiply) I am an Inferno disliker (I don't think the word "hater" is appropriate), just as a matter of personal preferense, and I would vote for Dungeon, if in the end -or in an expansion- Inferno made it, I would be delighted to see that Efreets making a comeback
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 30, 2014 04:13 PM

NACHOOOO said:
Stormcaller said:
Actually gating should be kept since it makes sense for inferno to have it, but it needs to be tweaked/adjusted to be actually good.


This poll although a small sample size shows that an alarming percentage of heroes cult fans really don't like Inferno the way it is. Gating is one of the key mechanics of the faction, ifso facto scrap it. Start fresh, nothing wrong with trying a different faction ability, especially when you can really only go up from here


Just because we don't like parts of a faction, doesn't mean we should throw away everything associated with the faction.

Our main beef is the uninspired line ups, and seemingly, the whole "force of nature" aspect. They aren't interesting because the plots so far are "Everyone, demons! Auugh! Kill em!" which is boring. Also, they had three walking humans with little difference in terms of abilities between themselves and other units (the Juggernaut was basically Demon!Jaguar Warrior, the Maniac was Demon!generic melee guy, and the Tormentor was the only really interesting thing, but his ability of "spike explosion!" was boring.

By your argument, we should throw away Cerberi, Succubi and Pit Lords. Why? Because they are major parts of Inferno,and if we don't like Inferno, than we should remove them!


P.S. it is "ipso facto,", not "ifso facto".

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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted September 30, 2014 05:03 PM

If they were to remove gating, what could serve as their racial ability instead?

Nothing comes to mind.
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 30, 2014 05:05 PM

Stormcaller said:
If they were to remove gating, what could serve as their racial ability instead?

Nothing comes to mind.

Chaotic Mutation? Like upping one random stat and downing a random other.
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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted September 30, 2014 05:11 PM

That sounds like beefed enrage or berserk.

Hm... dunno. I still think gating is fine as ability, just needs to be better shaped.

Faster and perhaps have some kind of influence on original troops. Perhaps gating a different unit will result in different effect?


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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 30, 2014 05:13 PM

Stormcaller said:
That sounds like beefed enrage or berserk.

You ask for a potential alternative, I give you one.
Also, whoever said it was attack and damage that gets upped?
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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted September 30, 2014 05:20 PM

Hmmmm...

Well better survivability would essentially make them the same thing as Orcs so....

Perhaps make luck exclusively Inferno thingy? Or at least enable them to max out luck potential even above other factions'.
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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted September 30, 2014 05:48 PM
Edited by Elvin at 15:50, 01 Oct 2014.

snow. These guys instead of Juggernauts.
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NACHOOOO
NACHOOOO


Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
posted October 01, 2014 12:28 AM

Just because we don't like parts of a faction, doesn't mean we should throw away everything associated with the faction.

Our main beef is the uninspired line ups, and seemingly, the whole "force of nature" aspect. They aren't interesting because the plots so far are "Everyone, demons! Auugh! Kill em!" which is boring. Also, they had three walking humans with little difference in terms of abilities between themselves and other units (the Juggernaut was basically Demon!Jaguar Warrior, the Maniac was Demon!generic melee guy, and the Tormentor was the only really interesting thing, but his ability of "spike explosion!" was boring.

By your argument, we should throw away Cerberi, Succubi and Pit Lords. Why? Because they are major parts of Inferno,and if we don't like Inferno, than we should remove them!


P.S. it is "ipso facto,", not "ifso facto".


"our main beef"? Do you talk for everyone other than me? I like h5 cerebei, succubi have always been decent and the pit lord is my favourite champion in h6, but people other than you or I also aren't enjoying playing this faction, so gameplay needs to be improved somehow. I don't have time this morning, but I do have some ideas for inferno abilities.

Ipso facto, there you go. Educational lol

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2014 01:50 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 01 Oct 2014.

NACHOOOO said:


"our main beef"? Do you talk for everyone other than me? I like h5 cerebei, succubi have always been decent and the pit lord is my favourite champion in h6, but people other than you or I also aren't enjoying playing this faction, so gameplay needs to be improved somehow. I don't have time this morning, but I do have some ideas for inferno abilities.

Ipso facto, there you go. Educational lol



It was absurd of me to say "Our main beef" as if I was speaking for others. These are my thoughts, and they pertain to pretty much just me. My apologies for that.

I was, however, trying to show how the argument of "This is key to the faction, and people don't like the faction. Therefore, scrap that which is key" is a bad argument, as you just said you like the cerberi, succubi and pit lords. However, that isn't even half the faction, especially with 8 units now. That's 5 more units where we could see radical changes to the line ups, or the possibility of updated units that actually have a strategy beyond "hit them".

The Pitlord had some interesting abilities that made him useful all around. Enemy disruption, teleportation, mass attack trough its retaliation and activated ability. It was a pretty cool champion that felt great to use.

Most of the other parts of the line up were lack luster. There were multiple units that weren't doing much of a job. Mostly, walkers (in the form of the Maniac, the Tormentor, and the Juggernaut) whose only role was to deal damage. Although the Juggernaut was also a tank, and had a cool ability to force this, its role was being absorbed by Tormentors and Maniacs, which all had to walk around to find an enemy to hit. I suppose this was "planned" so that the Juggernaut could provide protection to those other two, but now those other two are just dealing damage in a not-so-spectacular way. All while having the Cerberi do the same things, as it too was a tank (I say this as it had lower population values, high health, and the rather defensive abilities such as Unlimited Retaliation and the Damage buff against people who hurt it) as well as being yet another melee walker. However, it could also have the perpetual multi attack, which the Juggernaut and Tormentor could do at times, but were hard to set up and of course weren't always occurring. The Maniac just mopes around laughing, faffing about almost as bad as the Horned Demons of H5 did.

The last "unfavored" unit was another magic based shooter, whose role was also nothing beyond "shoot". The Succubi had a reason for you to not smack it (pain ability) as well as the ability to make an enemy not act at all via Enthrall, allowing the melee troops (who are otherwise unfulfilled) get in there with no problems, which sort of undermines and eases the Juggernauts role as tank. If a succubi got cornered, it could easily escape. Beyond the fact it had a might based melee attack, it was a well thought out unit!

The Breeder, though interesting in concept, had very little to do. Most of what it could do was very passive, either through a meat shield via bigger stack, and the mana steal, which was pretty effective, but with a spell system that necessitated a Might based hero to "waste" levels on Spells that they can't fully master, they weren't too ineffective. In addition, most of those spells had cooldowns and charges, which made the usage of spells more ineffective, and thus the need to steal mana less effective. Beyond that, the Breeder had Shoot and Move, which was helpful, but already less helpful than flat out flying to escape, and it was large, so it could easily be surrounded and attack by multiple angles. Over all, a badly designed creature.

Most of the creatures were good in concept, but they didn't mesh.

Even so, another "key" part of Inferno, at least in H6, was luck. This was directly tied to Gating. These both had to do with the weird reasoning of having all racial abilities tied to a gauge, when filled, could be used. The generation of it wasn't as methodical as other races (such as Sanctuary's "Hit each enemy at the same time, no ganging up" and Dungeon's "Hit them in a way that they can't fight back") or as simple to obtain ("hurt my guys, and they'll come back" for Necropolis and "KEEP HITTING THEM, KEEP HITTING US, LIKE IT'S GONNA MAKE A DIFFERENCE" for Stronghold) as it was completely random. Haven's was too, but its effect was that you could not at all target the guarded stack. For Inferno, the enemy could just slap the gate until it didn't summon a demon at all, or they could just kill the original demon and the gated one would disappear, which made the gating less useful overall. In addition, even if your gated stack survived the gating process, it still had to wait a while before it could actually do anything, causing extra faffing about. Sure, you could use artifacts and skills to bump up the luck stat to make it occur more often, but this wasn't guaranteed that you'd get the luck to generate, and still didn't make the gates any more effective by themselves, or speed up the creatures reaction time. Even if the gate did go off without a hitch, and you waited the appropriate turn of "summoning sickness", you just summoned either an effective shooter, your champion (yay for these!), your other shooter (not as effective, but can get on by) or yet another melee walker, as if your line up wasn't already full of em.

So, I'll say it this way. My problem with Inferno is not with Gating, but with a poor line-up that had multiple units stepping on each others toes, or were rather ineffective, along with the fact that part of the game play tied to H6's core system overall was flawed. With the racial ability (which by itself was fine) it needed to be tied into a system were there was too many vulnerabilities due to the required "resource" of triggered luck that was not very strategic, and not enough actual usage of the  racial ability, as it was also still vulnerable even when used. In addition, the spell system tied to H6's core system was flawed so that one unit was useless beyond being an average shooter, as well as making the hero's skills feel wasted, again, due to H6's failings.

Simply using H7's spell system where it isn't tied to hero skills, they already removed the majority of the spell problem, and thus part of the Breeder's problem. They will likely move away from the gauge-based racials, so that's another problem fixed up so the necessary use of luck to power gating need not apply. So, again, my main beef is the uninspired unit line-up. And, if this is fixed, then perhaps they'd have solved many of the problems with how Gating was implemented in H6. All that is left is the fact that a summoned unit does not mean you will hit that target, or that a gate could be easily destroyed before it does anything. But this is an acceptable risk we had in H5, where gating had much more lenient usage, and in my opinion, worked better.

Perhaps one of the few things that was good for Inferno's gating was that it was easier to gate your strongest unit (just how many times did we gate a Devil in H5? I barely ever could) and that it wasn't a little mark on the ground, but instead felt like a demon rising from the earth. However, you couldn't stop those little marks from bringing in a demon unless you killed the source, so even the graphics did not outweigh the capability of that little mark.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 01, 2014 09:53 AM

That's a nice write-up, but you are forgetting an important aspect about the Gate-in-progress. Yes, it was vulnerable, but it also blocked off tiles. Gating in a large creature meant blocking off a 2x2 tile. Considering there are more elements in play on a H7 Battlefield, such a Gate-in-progress might actually be even more effective in its own right.

Furthermore, having the enemy waste time to attack the Gate-in-progress means the enemy won't be attacking your actual units. The enemy is forced to divide his attention; failure to do so means an extra stack enters the battlefield on your side. While their number isn't nearly as large as the original stack, it's still extra cannon fodder which - for instance - could soak up retaliations, sparing your own troops, or block off enemy Shooters that are otherwise virtually unreachable.

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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2014 04:19 PM

Sigh. Now to wait for the next voting >.< Let's see how long it takes them.
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2014 05:12 PM

Maurice said:
That's a nice write-up, but you are forgetting an important aspect about the Gate-in-progress. Yes, it was vulnerable, but it also blocked off tiles. Gating in a large creature meant blocking off a 2x2 tile. Considering there are more elements in play on a H7 Battlefield, such a Gate-in-progress might actually be even more effective in its own right.

Furthermore, having the enemy waste time to attack the Gate-in-progress means the enemy won't be attacking your actual units. The enemy is forced to divide his attention; failure to do so means an extra stack enters the battlefield on your side. While their number isn't nearly as large as the original stack, it's still extra cannon fodder which - for instance - could soak up retaliations, sparing your own troops, or block off enemy Shooters that are otherwise virtually unreachable.


True, but when you need luck to even pull it off, it isn't as helpful. In addition, they could just ignore your gate altogether and just go after your original stack, which if destroyed, kills two birds with one stone.

However, you are right as you do get to keep some battlefield control by using the physical gates. I feel a happy medium between H5 and H6 should suffice.

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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2014 10:44 PM

Perhaps speed up their turn when the gating is successful? Makes little sense to me for a demon to come out of the gate and then needing it to wait for it's turn.

How about exiting out and immediately being able to move, attack etc?


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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2014 10:44 PM

Perhaps speed up their turn when the gating is successful? Makes little sense to me for a demon to come out of the gate and then needing it to wait for it's turn.

How about exiting out and immediately being able to move, attack etc?


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 01, 2014 11:18 PM

@protolisk
H6 inferno felt all over the place sadly. The design was messy and required some major rebalancing to get where it was. Imagine that tormentors had to get 20% might resistance and their special changed so as to avoid hurting allies, breeders got move and shoot and then there was the significant luck boost in creature values.

I also did not like the fact that the ravager had a perfect tanky ability but could not take much punishment. Initimidating presence sure made games interesting though Cerberi were just.. wrong and maniacs plain boring. Tormentors were fun but you had to time their actions very well for the special to pay off. It was more likely to pull it off with an instant gate(hell yes!) than with the actual unit. Plus they were too vulnerable to magic damage, their magic defense was abysmal. Breeders used to be useless before gaining move and shoot but I disagree that they forced might heroes into wasting levels on spells. First off, the basic spell versions were awesome with the appropriate reputation. Second, if you resorted to shooting with a might hero, you were probably using them wrong Their melee damage was might.

Gating was also a lot less situational than you give it credit for. You could not count on it in earlygame(other than splitting your succubi all over the place.. ) but it worked consistently in a big battle. It was also not all about bringing reinforcements as you could also use it to close pathways, provide ranged cover and of course surprise blocks/enemy incapacitation. The high initiative of ravagers and tormentors worked really well there, especially if they waited and gated at the end of the turn.

Fun overall but it could have been better. Oh and nice post
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NACHOOOO
NACHOOOO


Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
posted October 02, 2014 12:37 AM

Protolisk said:

It was absurd of me to say "Our main beef" as if I was speaking for others. These are my thoughts, and they pertain to pretty much just me. My apologies for that.

I was, however, trying to show how the argument of "This is key to the faction, and people don't like the faction. Therefore, scrap that which is key" is a bad argument


Thanks mate, appreciate that. Pisses me off when people disregard my opinion, or tell me it's wrong.

So you misunderstood what I was trying to say, not that we need to rebuild inferno from the ground up, rather make some changes to improve gameplay. I don't enjoy gating because as you said, it takes ages to be able to reap the benefit of the gate. I'm not going to dwell on the problems though, just my suggestions. I'd like something that sticks to their chaos roots, but has an immediate effect.

So these are some quick ideas based off a h5 style skill wheel.

Skill: Chaos
Modifies the damage of units within the heroes army to have a lower min damage and higher max damage, increasing as the skill levels.
Abilities:
- modifier to increase luck/destiny
- Modifier to increase critical damage
- Others like fire damage, fire shield which burns melee attackers and increases magic resistance, but they don't have synergy with the skill

Why it works: adds more randomness to the damage output of Inferno units sticking to the chaos theme, but as luck/destiny increases, the potential damage output from attacks becomes huge, but you still could end up doing min damage at a crucial
time.

The wife is hungry so I gotta go for breaky. More ideas to come

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