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| Thread: Women in heroes 7 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 18, 2015 08:36 AM |
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Hi kiryu133, I would feel like a hypocrite not reacting to you in the same way I do to most people here, so don't misunderstand this.
First of all could you restrain from using words like "stupid" in an original post? Such words are triggers. You can put as many quotes around it as you like and still somebody will take it the wrong way ;-).
Second: I don't think we need a 50/50 distribution in gender. Why? Because setting arbitrary requirements is bad. We should not make rules on how much A or B there needs to be. Let it evolve naturally. Some factinos might have none, some might have a majority. This should not be a design decision, but a more organic one.
Now to Factions:
Necropolis: It's rather sad that you skipped H1-2 since they were the ones who introduced the female ghost concept, not H4 (H3 kind of killed the ghost for me with their half skeletons, especially since M&M VI did them better imho). Also they did it in such a way, that is worth noting, their ghosts were ugly. Cartoonish due to the time, but they were ugly, and that is a problem with games, they do not depict the entire spectrum of female appearance.
Academy: Gargoyl may be female in concept, but similar to the lamasu, which had a rather hag-like head in H6 concept, this feature gets lost in the 3D. Even when I look at the 3D model animations at the officia web, i struggle to notice them.
Haven: This is where I think you took it to far. Looking into things a bit to much. For Example Angels. They are supposed to be genderless why do you think they are male? H7 haven should not be used to showcase bad female design IMHO since it has done one thing right, it its female into an armor. The justicara is not in the lineup to add a feminine shape to it, like the glory did, she is there to give it a more equal joan of arc like approach. With all the covered faces, huge metal lumps of armor, you could see most of the units as something similar to golems. Apart from there body structure you can't say if they are male, female or something in between
I'm all for the use of woman in games. They add variety, they add flavor, they are the spice in this stue of designes, but they should be treated as such. As spice, not salt. Woman have more the on boystructure, more than one face archetype, and as much as the justicara is a huge improvement in the way Ashan depicts woman, there is a lot more to be done. The game would benefit from ugly characters or fat characters, even the female ones.
The problem is that not all factions have the same opportunity to do so. Humans and especially Elves are not usually depicted as "un-atractive" but with the undead I feel there has been a big opportunity missed.
And to sume this up. My image of a great lady unit. H1 Ghost
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 18, 2015 10:53 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Hi kiryu133, I would feel like a hypocrite not reacting to you in the same way I do to most people here, so don't misunderstand this.
First of all could you restrain from using words like "stupid" in an original post? Such words are triggers. You can put as many quotes around it as you like and still somebody will take it the wrong way ;-).
that was a slip-up. it's fixed now  . scythe is totally stupid though 
Dave_Jame said:
Second: I don't think we need a 50/50 distribution in gender. Why? Because setting arbitrary requirements is bad. We should not make rules on how much A or B there needs to be. Let it evolve naturally. Some factinos might have none, some might have a majority. This should not be a design decision, but a more organic one.
you're right, it shouldn't be important or a big deal. key-word being shouldn't. It is however for reasons meroe layed out pretty well:
meroe said:
First off, I have never really cared one hoot about gender in games. But I can, however, understand the need to represent the sexes more fairly. Simply because its the fair and honest thing to do.
meroe said:
I also couldn't give a damn about what percentage of females play Heroes. Who cares. All the guy gamer's I know love playing as female as much as male. Heroes is not some little enclave of sexists and misogynists who cannot understand/do not want to understand or accept any type of equality between the sexes. Well that is just tough, the world is evolving and people are becoming more educated regarding gender equality. You haters can be left behind. We are too busy having fun playing our games.
paraphrasing a bit to get the points that matter to the discussion at hand, but basically we're in somewhat of a transitional time between the old-school male-dominated scene and a more open and diversified scene and part of this process is making sure everything is as equal and fair as possible. until we reach that state naturally we will have to work for it which means making sure genders are represented as fairly as possible.
Dave_Jame said:
Now to Factions:
Necropolis: It's rather sad that you skipped H1-2 since they were the ones who introduced the female ghost concept, not H4 (H3 kind of killed the ghost for me with their half skeletons, especially since M&M VI did them better imho). Also they did it in such a way, that is worth noting, their ghosts were ugly. Cartoonish due to the time, but they were ugly, and that is a problem with games, they do not depict the entire spectrum of female appearance.
you might notice that necropolis is the only faction i took a small look backwards in the franchise with and there is a simple reason for that: they've taken an interesting change in design. They used to be rather neutral or outright genderless (especially h3) but many of my points about the NWC necro certainly applies to h1-2 where applicable. I was trying to bring forth that using flesh and skin and etc. in the new games kinda brings up problems with gender that the old games didn't have and are a bit worse of for it. i hope that explains it at least 
Dave_Jame said:
Academy: Gargoyl may be female in concept, but similar to the lamasu, which had a rather hag-like head in H6 concept, this feature gets lost in the 3D. Even when I look at the 3D model animations at the officia web, i struggle to notice them.
i used the Gargoyle since it is very clearly supposed to be a female design and it serves my points well while the lamasu doesn't. in fact, it being more vague in-game actuall kind of improves the gargoyle for me, seeing as it making sure its gender isn't it's defining characteristic. it's elegant savagery is and that's good.
Dave_Jame said:
Haven: This is where I think you took it to far. Looking into things a bit to much. For Example Angels. They are supposed to be genderless why do you think they are male? H7 haven should not be used to showcase bad female design IMHO since it has done one thing right, it its female into an armor. The justicara is not in the lineup to add a feminine shape to it, like the glory did, she is there to give it a more equal joan of arc like approach. With all the covered faces, huge metal lumps of armor, you could see most of the units as something similar to golems. Apart from there body structure you can't say if they are male, female or something in between
Haven is not an example of bad female design. quite the contrary: it's fantastic. Its the context in which it is used that's problematic. As i said, the guardian/justicar is esily the best designed creature in the game so far. She oozes confidence, skill, badassery, you name it. the problem is that she's so clearly defined be her gender in comparison to the rest since they're clearly all male and defined by their role instead (i find it hard to put what i mean here to words ). That's bad and would be easily fixed by letting the rest show their faces letting us know that being a girl is not special or worthy of praise. Being a soldier is.
Dave_Jame said:
I'm all for the use of woman in games. They add variety, they add flavor, they are the spice in this stue of designes, but they should be treated as such. As spice, not salt. Woman have more the on boystructure, more than one face archetype, and as much as the justicara is a huge improvement in the way Ashan depicts woman, there is a lot more to be done. The game would benefit from ugly characters or fat characters, even the female ones.
This is where i'm gonna have to simply go "no". women are not a spice or in any way special. to use your food analogy: females and men are potatoes while role, equipment and design are the spices. in no way should gender be used as an excuse or reason to turn a unit into a special role or vice verse. Gender should not even be considered until the entire faction is complete and that's when you blindly decide what someone should be. As meroe said, it's the fair and simply right thing to do. treating a creature different because it's female is not rght.
Dave_Jame said:
The problem is that not all factions have the same opportunity to do so. Humans and especially Elves are not usually depicted as "un-atractive" but with the undead I feel there has been a big opportunity missed.
And to sume this up. My image of a great lady unit. H1 Ghost
Here i will agree to an extent: it's important that they're all ready to fight. a fat unit would not work well since he/she wouldn't be in fighting condition but otherwise, like with demons and undead you're completely correct.
and that ghost is pretty sweet.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 12:11 PM |
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Now I may get taken wrong way or even some hate for this but ... this is war game ... basicaly. Units are ment to fight. The reason of women not being dpeicted that much, is simple and has nothing to do with gender equality what so ever. It is because in most cases men are more suited to fighting roles, and so it was this way through history.
In Roman times, women had huge power actualy. They run day-to-day lives and decided houshold finances, and hired and fired servants and slaves. Not men. They had usualy not much say in this (sory dudes, but at home she was "wearing pants" in those times) The reason men were soldiers was because their body type is more suited to fight in general. And why politicians? Politics = war in large part in those times. However they were in politics aswell, but more in domestic and social sectors. If women were more suited to fight they would form the bulk of armies.
There were exceptions. Like gladiatrix etc. But in games and movies they are not depicted well at all. For hand-to hand combat it is good that you are strong and tough and gender plays no role. See modern female boxers, judoists, wrestlers, javelin throwers and weight lifters. This should give you an idea.
Now I admit. I like seeing sexy women in games. And I belive most others do aswell, and it is mainly for this reason why they are in there . It is fantasy afterall. And I don't complain. However, this being based for gender equality reasons, or because 50/50 ratio, it makes no snse and is imo not a good thing.
And for the end. Women didn't go to war because they didn't NEED to. While men HAD to. And this was actualy a HUGE privilege. Most people don't want to go kill one another and get themselves killed before they reach their 30's...
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 12:51 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Haven is not an example of bad female design. quite the contrary: it's fantastic. Its the context in which it is used that's problematic. As i said, the guardian/justicar is esily the best designed creature in the game so far. She oozes confidence, skill, badassery, you name it. the problem is that she's so clearly defined be her gender in comparison to the rest since they're clearly all male and defined by their role instead (i find it hard to put what i mean here to words ). That's bad and would be easily fixed by letting the rest show their faces letting us know that being a girl is not special or worthy of praise. Being a soldier is.
Thing is that most of the haven units don't look really male.
They are covered from head to toe in armor,so how do you want to know if they are male or female,if you can't see anything from their actual bodys?
You might argue now about body shapes,but even those are generally androgyn,with rather slim body waists and a slightly larger upper body.
Its just that the justikar is the only unit that is clearly female,but likewise the swordmaster and the chaplain are the only units that are clearly male(and in the chaplains case this only counts for the unupgraded unit)
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Esparado87
Hired Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 02:25 PM |
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Haven also have a female warfare unit: Sister (support/tent aid).
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My Dwarven Fortress: Fire & Steel
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=41075
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 18, 2015 03:07 PM |
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Greenlore said:
Thing is that most of the haven units don't look really male.
They are covered from head to toe in armor,so how do you want to know if they are male or female,if you can't see anything from their actual bodys?
You might argue now about body shapes,but even those are generally androgyn,with rather slim body waists and a slightly larger upper body.
Its just that the justikar is the only unit that is clearly female,but likewise the swordmaster and the chaplain are the only units that are clearly male(and in the chaplains case this only counts for the unupgraded unit)
you've kinda hit it right on with that last bit. Justicar is the only clearly unit with a clear gender and she's female. My point is that being female is what seperates her from the other units rather than her role or equipment: being female is special and worthy to bring out. none of the others (besides swordmaster but we'll get to him) are separated by gender and are all faceless meaning "male" (and they are male, they are clearly meant to be so. the Justicar has a noticably different body even under all that armour.) is normal or standard. This is where the problem lies: being male is normal while being female is abnormal .
about the swordmaster, yes his gender is discernible but he still has something that separates him from the others rather than what his gender is: he's a mothersnowing champion. I'll still say the chaplain is "faceless" (and as such "normal/standard") but does also have the distinction of being magical.
Esparado87 said:
Haven also have a female warfare unit: Sister (support/tent aid).
this is true but raises as many if not more problem than it fixes: sure, the Justicar isn't the only female, but all females are still the only units with faces and one of them is quite literally an object. Frankly i don't really count her since the original post was mostly about creature line-ups and...
i kinda forgot her  . wouldn't have brought it up anyway since i don't think she would've added much to the discussion, but still.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 03:35 PM |
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I don't really see how the faceless units are clearly male,for me it looks like they are automatically male to you,just because they are faceless(or not clearly female).
Their armor is bulky enough to look male,but slim enough to fit a woman,especially the crossbowman has a rather slim waist and slim legs.
Yeah the Guardian has armor that makes her more female looking,but the guardian is one of the few non-faceless units,just like the swordmaster,who also doesn't try to hide his gender.
The thing is that armor for women was most likely rather similar to armor for men in real life,so covering them up completely in armor like this is the perfect solution to make them gender-neutral looking.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 18, 2015 03:58 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 15:59, 18 Feb 2015.
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The playable Heroes of the series are 50/50 male/female. You know, the ones you actually indentify with. The ones whose adventures you follow. The ones who you evolve a story with.
Why on earth do the line-ups of a fantasy army need to be 50/50 of male/female too? This is absurd imho. Some could have zero males, some could have majority - DEPENDING ON THE DESIGN. Why limit artistic or creative freedom in such a way that there is a forced amount of certain gender. Who the eff even cares if Treant is male or female...
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 18, 2015 04:48 PM |
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Quote:
...making sure everything is as equal and fair as possible. until we reach that state naturally we will have to work for it which means making sure genders are represented as fairly as possible.
Why should male/female ration in all factions be 50/50? Just 'cause of feminism? 'Cause its trendy? 'Cause people are loud about it? I don't think we should have 50/50 representation because of diversity and uniqueness.
Factions represent different cultures. By applying contemporary notions of our world you would only ruin the game. There would be no uniqueness.
We all know that Haven is composed of humans and one beast usually. That doesn't mean that it must not change but it makes this faction unique. Plus, Haven is a feudal/medieval faction, thus it is ok if there are less females.
In the case of Dungeon (Ashan) there could be more female units because it is matriarchy. In H5 it is reflected by having Shadow Matriarch for level 6 creature. The strongest Dark elf creature considering only dark elves.
In some other factions, where talent for magic is sought, of course there can be 50/50 representation. Not because we care, but because faction itself doesn't care about gender but about talent in magic.
I liked that in previous games there were different representations:
1) In H3 Fortress, Witches were all female, Beastmasters all male. (Heroes)
2) Warlock were all male EXCEPT ONE! -> Uniqueness. (Heroes)
3) In H2 all heroes Sorceresses were female.
4) In H7 there will be 3.5 female units in Sylvan: Druid, Dryad, Pixie, Moon Doe/Sun Deer. There will be 2.5 males Dancer, Hunter and Deer, and 2 "it" creatures - Dragons and Treants.
These things gave different flavour to each faction. You see different cultures, different worlds.
So, in other words it is ok if one faction has more female, another male, and other 50/50 representation of gender.
But If you were all for the 50/50, you would complain why are there more females than males in sylvan, but you didn't do that... or when we are talking about gender in the game why there couldn't be more male witches, more female warlocks, more male sorceress... Just as I said feminism, trendy, being loud about it...
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 18, 2015 09:13 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Why should male/female ration in all factions be 50/50? Just 'cause of feminism? 'Cause its trendy? 'Cause people are loud about it? I don't think we should have 50/50 representation because of diversity and uniqueness.
Factions represent different cultures. By applying contemporary notions of our world you would only ruin the game. There would be no uniqueness.
We all know that Haven is composed of humans and one beast usually. That doesn't mean that it must not change but it makes this faction unique. Plus, Haven is a feudal/medieval faction, thus it is ok if there are less females.
In the case of Dungeon (Ashan) there could be more female units because it is matriarchy. In H5 it is reflected by having Shadow Matriarch for level 6 creature. The strongest Dark elf creature considering only dark elves.
In some other factions, where talent for magic is sought, of course there can be 50/50 representation. Not because we care, but because faction itself doesn't care about gender but about talent in magic.
I liked that in previous games there were different representations:
1) In H3 Fortress, Witches were all female, Beastmasters all male. (Heroes)
2) Warlock were all male EXCEPT ONE! -> Uniqueness. (Heroes)
3) In H2 all heroes Sorceresses were female.
4) In H7 there will be 3.5 female units in Sylvan: Druid, Dryad, Pixie, Moon Doe/Sun Deer. There will be 2.5 males Dancer, Hunter and Deer, and 2 "it" creatures - Dragons and Treants.
These things gave different flavour to each faction. You see different cultures, different worlds.
So, in other words it is ok if one faction has more female, another male, and other 50/50 representation of gender.
But If you were all for the 50/50, you would complain why are there more females than males in sylvan, but you didn't do that... or when we are talking about gender in the game why there couldn't be more male witches, more female warlocks, more male sorceress... Just as I said feminism, trendy, being loud about it...
you're putting words in my mouth that were not there, mister 
Now, let me answer these things: first of all i focused on the line-ups of the known factions where i pointed out what i like/dislike. I will stand by that a ration of about 50/50 is something good and a goal we should aim for at all times. You say i think this because it's "trendy" or whatever, but that's hardly the truth: i genuinely think equality and diversity are manditory in this day and age. we should move past old gender-values and this is the first step. We're not going to move forward if no one takes the first step and heroes has to me always been pretty good about this stuff.
And this leads to your other point about certain factions having different views on this and i wholeheartedly agree. Haven could be fine with less (or even few) female units if
1) there'd been some effort to bring this out more and
2) the Justicars gender wasn't her defining trait. That's my main grip with the faction but i have already gone through that multiple times. Haven could be a male-dominated faction and if it is (it hasn't been hinted at well so far) having fewer female units would be a good way of showing this. Showing the faces of the other elite tiers a least would definitely go a long way of fixing this but one problem will remain: the Smurfette Principle, which is never a good thing. one more female unit is pretty much manditory here.
H5 dungeon is in my opinion as well a perfect example of showing a factions politics through units: it has a good ratio (2/2) but both females are higher up than their closest male counterpart (blood-maiden/scout, lizard-rider/witch) and the which was powerful due to her status, smarts and magical prowess. fantastic use of units to show a factions culture. H5 dungeon had other problems but those aren't important to this discussion.
the previous games part you brought up is something i'm in favor as well. for example i was going to bring up h3 fortress if discussion ever veered that way and here we are! however my original post was about units so it does not factor in with heroes. anyway, h3 fortress presented a good feel for their gender-culture through their heroes showing that men wrestled with beasts while women played with magic. This is a good way of presenting culture and this extends to your other examples as well (though i don't get the sorceress one but i didn't play h2 so eh).
i have not commented on h7 sylvan because we know nothing about it yet and i also praised both necro and academy despite not having a 50/50 ratio. Academy is pretty close to perfect even: no units gender defines them, their species/role does (except the titan but he's a reference to a gender specific myth/legend). once we get more info on other factions/heroes etc. i'd love to take a look at them as well. Stronghold is going to be fun 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 18, 2015 09:17 PM |
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Too bad I don't care much about the topic to participate in the discussion, but I have to say this thread is well-done and seems to go pretty well, I hope mods will take the time to read through it when they can.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 19, 2015 05:26 AM |
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Nocturnal said:
If we have a female champ, then I think Ubisoft will have done its part about this issue for their upcoming game.
When did this become an issue
But seriously that cyclops is hideous 
H2 trolls are a good example of a stronghold female unit. And you make it sound like 'Men' make up the champion tiers. Other than the swordmaster, everything is a genderless beast. And angels could be either.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted February 19, 2015 05:32 AM |
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50/50 should be an overall representation through many video games where most video games should be within some reasonable deviation of this and not a precise number in every corner we look.
I mean imagine an amazon town with 50% male population..
It reminds me that when they put through the new grading system in my country, many teachers mistakenly thought that since 10% were expected to get an A, they had to give an A to the best 10% of the assignments they received, no less, no more, when in reality it was supposed to be evened out over the entire population of school children.
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Living time backwards
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 19, 2015 05:50 AM |
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There are games and games. Games as Sim-City or Theme Hospital reflect every day life, reality, using both genders is correct. Then there are games as Heroes, about power, violence, conquering, placing explosive mines under enemy feet, cut them to shreds, burn them with dragons fire and so on. Is laughable when people want equality between females and males in such environment.
Or maybe some of you will never be able to control any female outside of a video game, thus the request?
Why not then ask for a match between Mike Tyson and a female next time, for the sake of "equality"? When is the last time you watched a female soccer game too?
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Era II mods and utilities
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 19, 2015 05:51 AM |
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i wouldnt like that cyclops regardless the gender. but its probably the hair. if they made a female cyclops id prefer if she looked like Therazane
and yeah, unless their audio clips say otherwise, all champions minus the Cantspellsh are gener ambigous.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 19, 2015 08:44 AM |
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Salamandre said:
There are games and games. Games as Sim-City or Theme Hospital reflect every day life, reality, using both genders is correct. Then there are games as Heroes, about power, violence, conquering, placing explosive mines under enemy feet, cut them to shreds, burn them with dragons fire and so on. Is laughable when people want equality between females and males in such environment.
Or maybe some of you will never be able to control any female outside of a video game, thus the request?
Why not then ask for a match between Mike Tyson and a female next time, for the sake of "equality"? When is the last time you watched a female soccer game too?
*Edited for the sake of my sanity :-P*
To your poin'ts Arguin that the frequency of women should be based more on what the game is about, rather then that it is a game is in my eyes correct. I don't think women themselves would like something like CoD or BF with just a gender swap. But whre in this spectrum, where Life-sims represent one side of the and spunkgargleweewee the other, do fantasy games belong? A thematic gener where, from definition, we are allowed to use anything our mind comes up with?
And about the soccer thing. I can't remember when was the last time, if ever, i wathed male soccer. Since there are vry few nice things I could say about it, the people who play it or watch it. But I did watch a lot of women Biathlon, which in my dictionary is a bit more "manly" then the one you purposed ;-).
@kiryu133
I think you slightly misunderstood two of my pints. One of them was rather nicely presented by Nocturnal. When I say "fat" a mean human fat, a HUGE person, not american "fat" = obese. Nice example of such PC characters were in nival's Etherlords (Example 1 Example 2)
The second one was when I compared them to spice. It was not meant that they are "the thing we add to the game to make it taste better". Again it meant that we need some variety. There are more species the solte. Chilly, pepper, cinnamon etc.If I would continue in this analogy, the potatoe would not be the males in the game, not even the graphics or design, but it would represent the mechanics of the game. and to make the mechanic appealing you have to present them, give them some taste etc. Visuals are one way to do so, and if they were the spice, women would be one groupe of them. But even in such a groupe (salt/pepper/chilly/carry) there is a large variety to choose from, and we should be considering the fact that there are more kinds of women out that don't look like a photoshopped supermodel but are also small, lumpy, have short/no hair. We don't need something like theBroodmother From DA, but something in the line of the Etherlords heroines, or H1-2 trolls.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 19, 2015 09:17 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
this topic and the 50% premiss was presented by a Female.
I think Kiryu is a male.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 19, 2015 09:35 AM |
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Galaad said:
Dave_Jame said:
this topic and the 50% premiss was presented by a Female.
I think Kiryu is a male.
Wow... Ok.. that was a mind blow :-D
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 19, 2015 09:41 AM |
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Galaad said:
Dave_Jame said:
this topic and the 50% premiss was presented by a Female.
I think Kiryu is a male.
i might add that when available i will pretty much always make a female character (DA, skyrim, dragons dogma etc.).
Dave_Jame said:
Now to your poin'ts Arguin that the frequency of women should be based more on what the game is about, rather then that it is a game is in my Eyes correct. I don't think women themselves would not like something like CoD or BF with just a gender swap. But whre in this spectrum, where Life-sims represent one side of the spectrum and spunkgargleweewee the other, do fantasy games belong? A thematic gener where, from definition, we are allowed to use anything our mind comes up with?
I think an option in those games would be nice. at least in multiplayer and as far as i know we're slowly getting there, though i don't really play fps's much. that said, campaigns are still very much a problem like that woman in power armour in AW getting beat up by a mook until you can get back and save her? That's pretty snowty.
Dave_Jame said:
@kiryu133
I think you slightly misunderstood two of my pints. One of them was rather nicely presented by Nocturnal. When I say "fat" a mean human fat, a HUGE person, not american "fat" = obese. Nice example of such PC characters were in nival's Etherlords (Example 1 Example 2)
The second one was when I compared them to spice. It was not meant that they are "the thing we add to the game to make it taste better". Again it meant that we need some variety. There are more species the solte. Chilly, pepper, cinnamon etc.If I would continue in this analogy, the potatoe would not be the males in the game, not even the graphics or design, but it would represent the mechanics of the game. and to make the mechanic appealing you have to present them, give them some taste etc. Visuals are one way to do so, and if they were the spice, women would be one groupe of them. But even in such a groupe (salt/pepper/chilly/carry) there is a large variety to choose from, and we should be considering the fact that there are more kinds of women out that don't look like a photoshopped supermodel but are also small, lumpy, have short/no hair. We don't need something like theBroodmother From DA, but something in the line of the Etherlords heroines, or H1-2 trolls.
then i guess we agree DA broodmother might be going a bit far since just making a woman disgusting for the sake of it kind of defeats the purpose and we haven't even seen a male character like that... otherwise completely agreed 
Nocturnal said:
That's why I admire Ubisoft as they are trying to fix these issues.
lol, wut?
Nocturnal said:
and I must say H7 turns out to be a success at the sexism department. Key units are turning out to be female: Djinn and Justicar. Justicar especially is very important. She is the key element in that faction. I am pretty sure she will be the nightmare of everyone playing against Haven. She is the most aggresive unit in a faction which is all-male except for her. Hits twice, retaliates to an enemy that attacked a friendly unit. And its a given she is fast. She is like a H5 Stronghold unit in H7 Haven. Djinn also is a fan favourite, that's why it counts that she is a female.
Necropolis is a let down in this aspect as well as all other aspects. Only Ghost is there, and I never liked her design. It would be great if we had that beautiful H5 Lich with its torn white dress, but alas.
I'm also expecting Druid to be a female which also is a fan favourite which has always been a male in previous HoMM games. We'll also have Dryads. Dungeon will have 2 females: Medusa and either Stalker or Assassin.
Overall, the picture seems good. Many key units are female and females are not lacking in number if you also consider units whose gender is ambiguous like Dragons, Phoenix, Hydra, etc. But there are two things they miss:
1- There are no ugly female units. All have skinny bodies (which unfortunately became the ideal female body in these days) with seemingly non-freakish faces. We know we will get really ugly male Orcs, we have a male Rakshasa and really ugly male undeads. But Ghost is still that standart lady only with a transparent body.
2- Also what's lacking is an obviously female champion unit like Fate Spinners. And we only have Stronghold left as the only faction we know nothing about yet.
That's why a really huge and disgusting female Cycplop seems like the only solution. I really loved the Cycplop War-Overlord uploaded in some of his posts. It shows that this is possible.
If we have a female champ, then I think Ubisoft will have done its part about this issue for their upcoming game. And it would be great that a faction the most obvious attribute of which is its units' physical strength has a female for a champion.
this is all pretty much true. i don't find the ghost that bad (white lady is a common myth) but rather the lack of gender ambiguity in the rest of the faction like Liches (who could've been skeletal) and vampires (whom were fine when they were based on primarily male movie-monsters). That cyclop is a good example of a possible improvement for the stronghold faction and some monstrous (and non-monstrous), strength-based females would be very welcome
personally i want the female centaur to be melee this time. that would be cool
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 19, 2015 09:46 AM |
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@kiryu133
"you're putting words in my mouth that were not there, mister" No, I'm not. I'm just trying to understand your point and the purpose of this thread.
Sylvan is already known faction. You have the lineup and it was confirmed by Marzhin or someone on blog that druid is female. Thus, as I said it is known that it is going to be generally female faction. I personally did not care for genders (still don't) until feminists and anti-feminists flooded the internet with their mumbo-jumbo in an area that was entertainment for me and an escape from the real world, a place where I do not have to think about our own world. Now they all want fantasy to become our (their) world. Well guess what, some of us want the real world and fantasy separated.
"I will stand by that a ration of about 50/50 is something good and a goal we should aim for at all times." Why is it good? Why should we aim for it all the time?
"i genuinely think equality and diversity are manditory in this day and age." In the context that we are speaking this is your paradox. You are speaking about equality (50/50 at all times) and diversity. These two are mutually exclusive. If all factions are 50/50 there is no diversity but monotony, the sameness. But diversity is not having 50/50 all the times, that you say is good and mandatory. Diversity is 100/0, 70/30, 50/50, 30/70, 0/100. Do you realize what you are saying? But then again, if you are really for diversity, why did you start this thread and why did you talk about the need for 50/50 representation? I really don't get it. Why fix something if it's not broken?
" We're not going to move forward if no one takes the first step and heroes has to me always been pretty good about this stuff." Again if it's all good, why the complain and the wish for a change? EDIT: Move forward where? This is a video game not a real life. The gender representation is the least concern. It doesn't even matter at the end of the day cause it all the combination of "0" and "1".
"the Smurfette Principle, which is never a good thing. one more female unit is pretty much manditory here." We have Justicar and Sister. What's the fuss? A warfare unit, but still a unit. Sylvan has 3.5 females, Haven has 1(2). Now here is diversity. But if Haven had more then it would be equality. So I am asking you once again. Are you for equality or diversity? And what is wrong if one faction is based on the Smurfette principle? If it make the faction different than the rest, why not go that way? Why is it bad if there are other factions with more/less females?
For H5 Dungeon we agree.
The thing about Sorceresses in H2 was that all heroes in that faction were female, while all heroes in Warlock faction were male. My point was, different cultures show different representations of gender both in hero/units categories. And that is fine.
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