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| Thread: Women in heroes 7 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2015 10:27 AM |
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I wonder tho, if this was construction worker simulation game, would you still think that 50/50 ration is correct? Surely it would represent the reality ... no it wouldn't.
How about stevardess simulation game? We got flight simulation ... let's have a game focused on stevardesses ... and let there be 50% of their male because .... ???
Oh I know ... let's have Desperate housewives game - It exists ... and you know what? ... 50% of housewives are not male  . That must surely be corrected! This cannot stay, I say!
But this is nothing. Have you seen latest FIFA game? All football players in there are men! The horror, the shock! The improbability.
Now I have nothing against women in gaming or female units in Heroes ... but enforcing or promoting any ratio, that is based on ... nothing realy, is just silly, and it does not serve any purpose.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 19, 2015 10:31 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Now I have nothing against women in gaming or female units in Heroes ... but enforcing or promoting any ratio, that is based on ... nothing realy, is just silly, and it does not serve any purpose.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 19, 2015 10:58 AM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
No, I'm not. I'm just trying to understand your point and the purpose of this thread.
getting discussion and raising awareness of something i find problematic.
Sleeping_Sun said:
I personally did not care for genders (still don't) until feminists and anti-feminists flooded the internet with their mumbo-jumbo in an area that was entertainment for me and an escape from the real world, a place where I do not have to think about our own world. Now they all want fantasy to become our (their) world. Well guess what, some of us want the real world and fantasy separated.
This is mostly fine, but what about those who don't feel welcome here because of a lack of representation? Females are at this moment underrepresented in AAA gaming and this is a problem. If you don't want to be part of the discussion that's absolutely fine but don't act like there isn't a discussion to be had.
Sleeping_Sun said:
"I will stand by that a ration of about 50/50 is something good and a goal we should aim for at all times." Why is it good? Why should we aim for it all the time? 
In the context that we are speaking this is your paradox. You are speaking about equality (50/50 at all times) and diversity. These two are mutually exclusive. If all factions are 50/50 there is no diversity but monotony, the sameness. But diversity is not having 50/50 all the times, that you say is good and mandatory. Diversity is 100/0, 70/30, 50/50, 30/70, 0/100. Do you realize what you are saying? But then again, if you are really for diversity, why did you start this thread and why did you talk about the need for 50/50 representation? I really don't get it. Why fix something if it's not broken?
Sleeping_Sun said:
"the Smurfette Principle, which is never a good thing. one more female unit is pretty much manditory here." We have Justicar and Sister. What's the fuss? A warfare unit, but still a unit. Sylvan has 3.5 females, Haven has 1(2). Now here is diversity. But if Haven had more then it would be equality. So I am asking you once again. Are you for equality or diversity? And what is wrong if one faction is based on the Smurfette principle? If it make the faction different than the rest, why not go that way? Why is it bad if there are other factions with more/less females?
what i mean is that we should aim for 50/50 (or close) ration unless there is a reason not to. for example the haven lineup could be excused with few female units as it would present a mostly male-dominated society. problem is Haven has often been presented as not being male-dominated and with the large number of units one more female unit would not really take that "male-dominated" feel away: they would still be a minority but would not succumb to the smurfette-principle. I still do not count the sister since she is a warfare unit and presented as an object and i feel she adds more negativity than positivity if we bring her in. besides, my main gripe with haven is the difference in design-philosophy between male and female units.
Sleeping_Sun said:
" We're not going to move forward if no one takes the first step and heroes has to me always been pretty good about this stuff." Again if it's all good, why the complain and the wish for a change? EDIT: Move forward where? This is a video game not a real life. The gender representation is the least concern. It doesn't even matter at the end of the day cause it all the combination of "0" and "1".
pretty good is not the same as great, epecially in this medium. Games are very snow at progressive thinking, especially with gender and race and i want everyone to feel welcome, hence the thread. that's why this matters: people that might enjoy and bring something new to the community or whatever might be put off because they feel it's to much of a "boys-only" type deal. as said, heroes is pretty good but it's nowhere near "great" yet. I simply want everyone who might enjoy this franchise regardless of gender, orientation, race etc. to feel weelcome. is that bad?
Sleeping_Sun said:
For H5 Dungeon we agree.
The thing about Sorceresses in H2 was that all heroes in that faction were female, while all heroes in Warlock faction were male. My point was, different cultures show different representations of gender both in hero/units categories. And that is fine.
i agree and it would add some cool "spicing" (he) to the game. I think, say, having male-only might heroes and female-only magic heroes (or vice verse) in a h7 faction would be cool, but no faction in Ashan has been presented to be this way and you know how strict they are with their lore.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 19, 2015 11:08 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
This is mostly fine, but what about those who don't feel welcome here because of a lack of representation? Females are at this moment underrepresented in AAA gaming and this is a problem. If you don't want to be part of the discussion that's absolutely fine but don't act like there isn't a discussion to be had.
I hate to break the news to you Kiryu but Heroes is not a AAA title at this time, it was never presented that way and most likely never will.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 19, 2015 11:13 AM |
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This kind of discussion is usually about the Main Characters of a game...
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 19, 2015 11:19 AM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 11:19, 19 Feb 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
I hate to break the news to you Kiryu but Heroes is not a AAA title at this time, it was never presented that way and most likely never will.
i know that. doesn't make the discussion any less valid
Minion said:
This kind of discussion is usually about the Main Characters of a game...
well, heroes seldom focuses on a main character and first now with Ivan do we have an especially dull one. before it's been pretty great (h6's siblings, Isabel, Catherine, Gelu etc.(quality of characters non-withstanding)) so that is kind of a non-issue 
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted February 19, 2015 11:22 AM |
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I must be frank and say that ever since I first saw HoMM series, I never cared for X and Y amounts of males / females. There are male units aswell as female units and why dwelve so deep into that? If one shall be so snide to say this, women did not participate in wars for a lot of good reasons and so why shall one expect a lot of women in combat/war games?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2015 11:35 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
This is mostly fine, but what about those who don't feel welcome here because of a lack of representation? Females are at this moment underrepresented in AAA gaming and this is a problem.
My current gf loves this game called God of War.... surely such masculine game would not appeal to any female gamer now would it? And no, she's not just saying this because of me ... she was the one that had ps2 and GoW before we even met, while I'm not a console player since SNES ... Her reasoning? She finds Kratos attractive ...
And about representation ... idk but women are surely more represented group in gaming than for example idk ... Black people, Indian people, Native Americans, Asians (just think, even Asian games have loads - do I dare say most? - characters depicted as white)...
But since this is topic about sexes and not race ... How about gay people, lesbians, transgenders ... do we need quotas for them aswell?
Most women don't play strategy games, not becuse they're not enough females in them, but more because ... they don't play strategy games. Why? Idk ... Maybe they don't like them? Sure number of female gamers is growing, in strategy genre aswell, and that is a good thing, which I approve, but I wager that representation of sexes has not that big of an impact on most female gamers. Type of game has more impact. Like it or not, but in general, men find diferent things interasting and important, than women, and this diferent preference is what mostly dictate the type of games each of them will play.
EDIT: Ebonheart said:
I must be frank and say that ever since I first saw HoMM series, I never cared for X and Y amounts of males / females. There are male units aswell as female units and why dwelve so deep into that? If one shall be so snide to say this, women did not participate in wars for a lot of good reasons and so why shall one expect a lot of women in combat/war games?
This is correct.
Basicaly what I already said ...
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Moriak71
Hired Hero
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posted February 19, 2015 12:32 PM |
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Also I would say 2 things:
1. I think that the main reason why the developers ad some women into the game, is not to attract women to play the game. It is to attract men. How many of the guys playing Skyrim for example, play as a woman character? I guess we can find quite a lot.
2. tell me how many man play video games and how many woman do? I think you can find really few man, which are not interrested in gaming. But we can name a lot of women, which don't even understand, why are we (men) so interrested in this.
I do not want to put people into baskets, but I would say 90-95% of guys play video games. 30-35% of girls play video games.
Also I can't imagine a girl gamer, which would pick a faction in HOMM because it has only or most women characters. It is just not natural.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 19, 2015 01:05 PM |
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" what about those who don't feel welcome here because of a lack of representation?" I think one should feel unwelcome if someone is aggressive towards the one, or insulting, etc. But the lack of representation? The world is not spinning around an individual. You will never be able to make everyone happy (just check H7 blog...) If the lack of representation is the reason why someone is feeling unwelcome here, then the problem is in a person (taking everything to heart, insecure, twisting facts, imagining things, mental illness, etc.), and not in the game. Also, the *here* is being where? Game or (HC) the internet forum? I am not sure I get the thing you are referring to.
"Females are at this moment underrepresented in AAA gaming and this is a problem." Then you chose the wrong game to discuss. Heroes is not an AAA game. Or at least you should have different name for this thread like: Women in AAA games. Also, why is that a problem? Will the representation have any significance or meaningful impact? Will it serve any benefit? Let's say that the number of females in heroes/AAA games will increase. Will it have any impact? Will it improve or have better characters, story, mechanics, will it sell more...? You cannot generalize and say they all need more females. It depends from game to game. In some games it is ok, and it comes natural like in Elder Scrolls X, but in some games it may not even be necessary. So why force it?
"what i mean is that we should aim for 50/50 (or close) ration unless there is a reason not to." I already mentioned the reason why diversity is better than equality. And that I think it's more than enough a reason not to go for 50/50 representation.
"problem is Haven has often been presented as not being male-dominated" But Haven is presented as male dominated. " one more female unit would not really take that "male-dominated" feel away" if one female unit will not change anything why the fuss? Haven can have 1 female. Dwarfs 2, Academy 3, Sylvan 4, Dungeon 5, etc. or some different combination. "they would still be a minority but would not succumb to the smurfette-principle" And why is this bad if it is just one faction?
"I still do not count the sister since she is a warfare unit and presented as an object" With all due respect, whether a unit is male or female, warfare or standard unit, it doesn't even matter. They are all objects that we use to accomplish our goal. They are our pawns and chess pieces that we move across the board, sacrifice and ultimately destroy other objects, and thus other player. Yes, we may attach to it, but it doesn't change the facts.
" my main gripe with haven is the difference in design-philosophy between male and female units." Well, we all have a vision how the units should look, and this is totally subjective. Just remember the lich and vampire discussions everywhere. Still, I think it is good that she is armoured, rather than looking like a striper warrior.
"especially with gender and race and i want everyone to feel welcome, hence the thread" I don't see that Heroes games had any trouble with race and gender. There are usually more male units, because of the fact that men went to war and not women. Of course this is not carved in stone, but in the past it was the case, because men are physically stronger than women (when you swing with an axe you want to kill the enemy...). (Though women are stronger genetically because of the baby.) That doesn't mean that women never fought in a battle, but it just wasn't seen generally. And that is why you see more women as heroes rather than warriors. Of course, this is still fantasy we are talking about.
"people that might enjoy and bring something new to the community or whatever might be put off because they feel it's to much of a "boys-only" type deal. as said, heroes is pretty good but it's nowhere near "great" yet. I simply want everyone who might enjoy this franchise regardless of gender, orientation, race etc. to feel weelcome." People enjoy something or the do not. You cannot change that for anyone. This is the fact. The same way, you either like a heroes game or you don't. You cannot satisfy everyone and their tastes, nor I think this is someone's responsibility and obligation. Of course, we all want to change something and to improve it, hence the mods and discussions how should x thing can be better implemented, etc. No one is stopping anyone from contributing to HC. The boys-only label is stupid. There are girls who like tender things, and those who are more like boys. It is the same with guys. Heroes games are dealing with fictional stories, not with gender, racial, orientation issues, thus there is no reason to feel unwelcome and not to enjoy the game. Also this greatness that you mention has nothing to do with gender... but with the gameplay. About the welcome... I don't see any signs of death, persecution, whipping and similar stuff here on HC. So why an individual shouldn't feel welcomed? And regarding the welcome, most if not all new members who post things are welcomed by the old members...This isn't an individual's fan club and cheer-leading squad... Plus, it appears that you are acting on a not proven possibility. Just to make sure you understand what I am talking about: "people that might enjoy and bring something new to the community or whatever might be put off because they feel it's to much of a "boys-only" type deal." One can enjoy the game without being a part of some online community. I enjoyed heroes games way before I knew this place even exist. In short, gender representation has nothing to do with enjoying in playing a game or being a part of community. It all depends whether the game is good, and whether are people normal (not insulting, threatening, etc.). In addition, you cannot judge what might put off some people. What bothers me doesn't have to bother you.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 12, 2015 09:53 PM |
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Personally, I'm somehow not very content with the idea of forcing females into faction's armies for the sake of it. Guardian/Justicar already feels like it for the sake of having a warrior woman in the lineup. Artwork would be cool... if it was an artwork for a character, and not for an unit.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 08, 2015 05:05 PM |
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So Stronghold has been revealed and there was much Rejoice (seriously, everyone seems to love it) so naturally it's time to take a look at it within the reasons of this thread. so what does Stronghold actually bring when it comes to a more diverse game?
Let's start with the numerical shizzle-wizzle first, shall we? Stronghold has 2 clearly female humanoid (in this case creatures who are partly human are counted) creatures and 3-ish male ones (i did not count gnoll since it's simply impossible to tell, extra so since it's partly a hyena). that's pretty great, ain't it? but wait, there is more! two of the male ones are special cases: cyclopes are very bestial and the male goblin who only exists in tandem with the basilisk. without the basilisk he is nothing so in reality it kinda boils down to 2 females and one male. that's pretty cool, especially for a brutish and might-based faction. But i have been listening to some responses and i can see that ratio and whatevs doesn't matter as much as i've made it out to do so this is not something i'll delve on too much (but still, really good job there).
but don't worry, there is plenty to discuss here 
i would like to begin with bringing up the Brute.
The brute is a brutish (duh) big guy punching peoples faces in. With a sword. i would like to bring attention to his attire. see how he wields protective garments to shield hi from sun and sand? pretty great stuff. also note how he is presented with that big, threatening pose and "i'm gonna kill you" stare. now let's us look how the harpy and centaur are presented. yeah, it's gonna be one of these 
Notice how, unlike the brute, the harpy and centaur has silky-smooth skin, very little clothes or protection and are presented as much more inviting? i don't like that. let's start with the harpy.
first off, i can see the lack of protection here: that stuff is heavy and when you need to fly, the last thing you want is to be heavy. understandable and kinda makes sense in some ways. still not great mind you, since she will be very heavily burned very quickly but there is a point to made here, sure. the super-smooth skin and inviting pose on the other hand...
first off, her skin should not be that smooth if she does not protect herself from the sun. you can't have your cake and eat it. Secondly, Harpies were usually portrayed as hags or "ugly" in myth. there really isn't much reason to make them like this. and then there is the pose. i don't get it. Mileage might vary (i'm not nearly as bothered by the harpy as i am the centaur) but having her look as though she is about to embrace the viewer seems a bit off to me. anyway, i don't have much to say about the harpy. it's ok, just a bit silly compared to the Brute.
Now for the Centaur.
(i use the upgraded centaur to make another point)
Can you guys tell me why they framed her cleavage? i mean the picture is drawn to put as much emphasis as possible on her beasts. that's not cool. In fact, it's kinda unacceptable. but don't worry, i'm not done. you see, the centaur is also the first female, dark skinned creature. That's awesome. You know what's less awesome? giving her a leopard-print bikini. What the flying snow? Do i need to emphasis how this is a problem? The first creature with dark skin has a leopard fur bikini.
The first creature with dark skin has a leopard fur bikini.
And why can she not have some armour or clothes, really. it's not like she needs to worry about weight the same way harpies does.
Also, they both have jiggle-physics. Because of course they do.
anyway, let's praise them some too!
all this aside, i really like them both a lot. Harpy isn't as cool as the one in h6 (but what harpy is?) and the centaur is part Gazelle. that's bucking awesome! totally radical and snow! I just hope we can do something to minimize the negative stuff as well.
(hey, any VIP's able too forward my concerns about the centaur? This is pretty serious and a simple texture change should be enough to at least help some of it)
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2015 05:50 PM |
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Well I don't really see any problems here. I don't view the harpy as a humanoid but more of a creature. I will say that the harpy's skin doesn't look smooth in the game  And while harpies are generally ugly in mythology, so are gargoyles. Probably most banshees too. So really if a female unit is in Ashan, she is going to be as beautiful as possible.
As for the centaur, my eyes are not drawn to her cleavage... She is suppose to be fast with her maneuver ability, and being a mobile shooter so I can see why she isn't being weighed down with armor. The leopard top is kinda silly since it's color doesn't match with anything on the unit, but we don't want boob-plate on her do we? Personally I prefer the H6 centaur over this.
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted April 08, 2015 06:01 PM |
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Let me ask you this regarding the Centaur: do you also consider it a problem that, in previous games, the male Creatures were (almost) naked. Granted, the leopard bikini is very silly, but I don't consider it a problem that they wear little clothing, as Centaurs are generally depicted like that, and I do not think they are objectified or something.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 08, 2015 06:02 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 18:14, 08 Apr 2015.
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The_Green_Drag said:
Well I don't really see any problems here. I don't view the harpy as a humanoid but more of a creature. I will say that the harpy's skin doesn't look smooth in the game
well that's a relief
and as i said, i'm not really bothered much by the harpy for these reasons.
The_Green_Drag said:
As for the centaur, my eyes are not drawn to her cleavage... She is suppose to be fast with her maneuver ability, and being a mobile shooter so I can see why she isn't being weighed down with armor. The leopard top is kinda silly since it's color doesn't match with anything on the unit, but we don't want boob-plate on her do we? Personally I prefer the H6 centaur over this.
is it too much to ask for something similar to what the brute has though? doesn't look like that would slow her down much and it would help in protecting against the elements
that said, i sound a bit more negative than i actually am. i really like both but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be criticized. and they really need to do something about the leopard fur. it's very troubling
Kronos1000 said:
Let me ask you this regarding the Centaur: do you also consider it a problem that, in previous games, the male Creatures were (almost) naked. Granted, the leopard bikini is very silly, but I don't consider it a problem that they wear little clothing, as Centaurs are generally depicted like that, and I do not think they are objectified or something.
(i knew i forgot something)
a lot comes from presentation and not from what someone wears (except when that something is a leopard fur bikini on a dark skinned character). For example, the h5 centaurs might've been naked and muscular but they were also allowed to not be very attractive. their faces were rough and scarred and their lack of clothes were less "this unit is sexy" and more "this unit is badass". this is not true for the h7 centaur however it is for the h6 centaur (who is awesome).
while we're at the subject of presentation, remember the h5 shamans? they might've had more clothes than the centaur, but the centaur didn't have eyeliner and a seductive dance as an idle animation. so the answer is simply that the h5 centaurs were not sexualized at all. the h3 ones on the other hand...
but are the h7 centaurs objectified? if they keep the bikini and keep the circle around her cleavage (look at the artwork. the bikini plus skull(wtf) creates a circle around her breasts) then i am inclined to say yes. but if they were to remove the skull and replace the bikini with, say, some fabric coiled around her chest i would say she looks pretty cool. Not perfect, but not borderline racist in execution either.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted April 08, 2015 06:04 PM |
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What is troubling about it specifically?
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 08, 2015 06:11 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
still not great mind you, since she will be very heavily burned very quickly but there is a point to made here, sure.
So, all the people in Africa wear totally covering clothes all the time? Especially the more original tribes that exist in the warmer regions of the world aren't exactly known for their fashion lines, if you know what I mean. You have a point with regards to the tone of skin, I guess.
Quote:
Can you guys tell me why they framed her cleavage? i mean the picture is drawn to put as much emphasis as possible on her beasts.
It's a question altogether where a female Centaur would have her breasts to begin with. From a logical point of view, they should be around where a standard mare has them, because it's unlikely she will breastfeed her young in quite the same way as a human female.
That being said, I understand they want to make the torso look more like that of a normal human female, which just does tend to be featuring breasts. I'm neutral towards the way they've drawn her, though; the breasts neither repel or attract me in any particular way - mostly because it's just a drawing, a bunch of pixels. If that gets you off, though, I suggest more interaction with the female part of our species in reallife .
If anything should be changed, though, it's something that is said to have been common practice with Amazons in our own world: amputation of the breast on the side where the bowstring is being pulled. On release, the bowstring can do serious damage to the breast in question, leading to injury and possibly infection. Then it's better to do without, but I guess UbiSoft doesn't want to display such a deformation.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 08, 2015 06:22 PM |
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Maurice said:
So, all the people in Africa wear totally covering clothes all the time? Especially the more original tribes that exist in the warmer regions of the world aren't exactly known for their fashion lines, if you know what I mean. You have a point with regards to the tone of skin, I guess.
i was thinking more about desert wanderers closer to the Sahara area if that makes sense.
Maurice said:
It's a question altogether where a female Centaur would have her breasts to begin with. From a logical point of view, they should be around where a standard mare has them, because it's unlikely she will breastfeed her young in quite the same way as a human female.
If anything should be changed, though, it's something that is said to have been common practice with Amazons in our own world: amputation of the breast on the side where the bowstring is being pulled. On release, the bowstring can do serious damage to the breast in question, leading to injury and possibly infection. Then it's better to do without, but I guess UbiSoft doesn't want to display such a deformation.
now this sounds like interesting ideas worthy of discussion. should open a centaur biology thread next...
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted April 08, 2015 06:40 PM |
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considering the harpy, lorewise was "designed" to be "used as scouts, messengers and skirmishers" by the DESERT wizards it makes sense that sun-scorching resistant skin comes with the package. I'd be more concerned about the metal breastplate under the sun frankly.
the "inviting" argument is pretty silly. The only other decent pose i can think for a half bird human that still showcases the design enough is already taken by the gargoyle.
the ugly argument is right, but that's not new. And this one at least looks closer to my favorite harpy, the H3 one.
Now regarding the centaur, they look like this
(nsfw?)
http://www.theoi.com/image/img_kentaurides.jpg
and the namibian aborigen women look like this
(nsfw)
http://samirrahil.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Himba-Namibia.png
and zulu warriors like this
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/40/4000/3G6WF00Z/posters/john-warburton-lee-zulu-warrior-in-traditional-dress-with-fighting-spear.jpg
the bra is already more than they should have. Hell, even the bow is more than they had in myth. And wtf is that implied racism claim? Orcs have been wearing leopard since last game and it's not like the "african tribement wearing leopard" is a false stereotype that came out of nowhere, it's the same as the kensei wearing japanese-ish armor or the priestess wearing european-ish clothes.
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Neovius
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2015 09:41 PM |
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So SJWs are invading Heroes now? Is nothing sacred?
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