Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: The lore thread
Thread: The lore thread This thread is 43 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 39 40 41 42 43 · «PREV / NEXT»
GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 08, 2016 11:02 PM

1-They did it by mixing humans and beasts/demons at first. Like mutating them. Like experimenting on them. Like Mengele.

2-And?

Wizards did suffer consecuences for their actions via the orc revolts. By H5 time they had changed their ways more or less. Protagonist wizards so far were good but we do see their other side during H7 orc campaign.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 09, 2016 12:59 AM

GenyaArikado said:
1-They did it by mixing humans and beasts/demons at first. Like mutating them. Like experimenting on them. Like Mengele.

2-And?

Wizards did suffer consecuences for their actions via the orc revolts. By H5 time they had changed their ways more or less. Protagonist wizards so far were good but we do see their other side during H7 orc campaign.


I think I am not making my point clear enough.  Lore=/=Plot. That's why I said you could avoid answering point 1) and 2) 'cause they're irrelevant in the end.

Whatever the Wizards did in the past, their role in the HOMM5 plot was the same as everyone else. Gathering with all the other factions and just sweep the demons away. Everyone else: good / demons: evil. That's all there is, folks, at least until Markal's betrayal which was pretty basic, but still one of the highest point of the HOMM5 narrative.

And you're missing the biggest and most important point. I don't think at all the lore about wizards (or necromancers to mention my first example) was all that bad. I think it became hated mostly because of how incompetent the plot writing is.

Did the settling of Ashan call mandatorily for all of that? No it didn't. With ascetic undeads, orcish revolution, mad scientist-like wizards, they had PLENTY of space for moral controversy and interesting characters and stories. They decided to went with that flavorless plot instead, but it's not the forced result of scrapping Axeoth or creating Ashan. It's just sheer unadulterated incompetence.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 09, 2016 02:54 AM

Oh yeah H5 plot was crap. Or better said the idea was nice but it was done crappily. Honestly we should have started with H7 or H6 plot, then the other one, then H5. But sadly H5 plot predates Ashan.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted August 09, 2016 02:28 PM

GenyaArikado said:
1-They did it by mixing humans and beasts/demons at first. Like mutating them. Like experimenting on them. Like Mengele.

2-And?

Wizards did suffer consecuences for their actions via the orc revolts. By H5 time they had changed their ways more or less. Protagonist wizards so far were good but we do see their other side during H7 orc campaign.

Heroes of Might & Mengele

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 09, 2016 08:49 PM

GenyaArikado said:
But sadly H5 plot predates Ashan.


Which still goes back to my point. Ashan is bad because the writers are bad, not because
1) everything about Ashan has to be intrinsecally bad
nor because
2) changing the lore and setting could only lead to a worse state of the HOMM series

(I still think changing the setting was a mistake, tho)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 15, 2016 09:28 PM
Edited by sandro400 at 21:32, 15 Aug 2016.

Galaad, hello mate, I'm rather offended by the fact that you posted links to all lore-related articles from the SC website except the Tales of the Netherlord. Really, you included all small articles about units, all councilors, even Naga, but no Sandro...

-----------

By the way, due to mashupforge shutting down in August, the map of Ashan created by Marzhin was moved to another site: http://fondationdraco.fr/might-magic-ashan-map/
It has been updated a little (some new descriptions, new artworks etc), the only downside is it doesn't show the Duchies borders anymore.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted August 16, 2016 01:25 AM
Edited by Galaad at 01:25, 16 Aug 2016.

sandro400 said:
Galaad, hello mate, I'm rather offended by the fact that you posted links to all lore-related articles from the SC website except the Tales of the Netherlord. Really, you included all small articles about units, all councilors, even Naga, but no Sandro...


Hey man nice to hear from you, haha odd indeed, I've put it now so please don't take offense, I also noticed I stopped putting info from SC ever since they closed the comment section for some reason, will add what's missing later.

Quote:

By the way, due to mashupforge shutting down in August, the map of Ashan created by Marzhin was moved to another site: http://fondationdraco.fr/might-magic-ashan-map/
It has been updated a little (some new descriptions, new artworks etc), the only downside is it doesn't show the Duchies borders anymore.


Fixed, thanks.
____________
#Give JVC Might and Magic rights back!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted August 28, 2016 11:38 PM

GenyaArikado said:
Oh yeah H5 plot was crap. Or better said the idea was nice but it was done crappily. Honestly we should have started with H7 or H6 plot, then the other one, then H5. But sadly H5 plot predates Ashan.



Going back in time is never a good idea. Not in a series!

I agree, by the way.
Heroes 5 with story from heroes 6.
Heroes 6 with story from heroes 7.
Heroes 7 with story from heroes 5.

That would have made it better.
And a better start for sanctuary.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2016 08:59 PM
Edited by Momo at 21:00, 26 Sep 2016.

Cortes said:
GenyaArikado said:
Oh yeah H5 plot was crap. Or better said the idea was nice but it was done crappily. Honestly we should have started with H7 or H6 plot, then the other one, then H5. But sadly H5 plot predates Ashan.



Going back in time is never a good idea. Not in a series!



And Clash of Heroes before HOMM7 then? It predates Isabel's War by a few decades, right?

I don't know, it makes a certain sense to run up and down in the time-web of a story, especially if it is a multi-generational epic. It can build up a sense of suspence, familiarity, etc.

See Metal Gear Solid.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 27, 2016 10:31 AM

Clash of heroes came on a handheld - it makes sense that it would take some liberties or that the story would be standalone and not influence the main story too much or at all. It was its own thing and nobody would care if they missed it. That's ok. But a disjointed story in a main game doesn't work all that well. Same is true for plot threads that have remained open for too long. Time passes, interest wanes, people move on.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 27, 2016 06:26 PM

Elvin said:
Time passes, interest wanes, people move on.


perhaps, but with metal gear saga it didn't. if the interest of people wanes easily, it probably is the fault of the storyteller. leaving holes and gaps in itself is not inherently wrong for storytelling, i think.

sorry about the lack of capitals, my keyboard is damaged lol

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 27, 2016 08:49 PM

Momo said:
sorry about the lack of capitals, my keyboard is damaged lol


Too much banging on it in frustration while trying to get H7 to run?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 27, 2016 11:48 PM

Maurice said:
Momo said:
sorry about the lack of capitals, my keyboard is damaged lol


Too much banging on it in frustration while trying to get H7 to run?


LOL

nah. That horse is long dead. I am spending my time on Warlock:Master of the Arcane. It runs fine on my pc, so it's a fine amuse-bouche while waiting for my next PC and Age of Wonders 3. The keyboard suffered the tyranny of time, the fur of three cats, my heavyweight chef's hands, and obsessive typing. It cannot type capitals sometimes, or "C" or "V" letters. Pretty annoying.

Gotta be honest though, when I get the new PC I'm too tempted to get Trial by Fire on it and try to run it again. I just have too sympathy with dwarves to just pass on it. And the first two scenarios didn't seem that terrible either, even if quite predictable.

(not-terrible seems to be the paragon of narrative quality when speaking of Ubi's writers so...)

You guys should try Warlock, though. It's fun I swear.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 28, 2016 06:08 AM

I liked the dwarven campaign but Ivan's last 2 missions were a major waste of time By the time you get the addon maybe you'll pick it up for a dollar so it'll be worth it. Still, keep away your set of chef knives just in case. Frustrating situations may arise and you can't say in court that ubi pushed you off the edge.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2016 01:49 PM

Do you think Yrwanna would be a might hero or a magic hero? I want to draw her H6/7 style.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 29, 2016 02:00 PM

For a hero that used to start with enlightenment -> intelligence I'd say warlock is the way to go. But what I liked about H5 warlocks was their capacity for both. Brutal either way.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2016 04:10 PM

I know. Thats why i have my doubts XD. I'm annoyed, given the budget-saving mode H7 had, even if we had gotten the blood maidens/skirmishers, Yrris would have been their governor hero.

We should have gotten Sorsha/Jurticars instead of Tyris/Knights

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted September 30, 2016 03:07 PM
Edited by Galaad at 23:57, 30 Sep 2016.

Moved from the Discussion thread

verriker said:
Momo said:
Now ironically the things in which Ashan shows a modicum of more personality and uniqueness, like the Angels VS Faceless contrast of opinion (and following war) or the vision of undeath as a form of ascetism, are heavily criticized. I am sorry for that, I honestly think that Ashan gets more criticism that it deserves.


I'd just like to make mention, that I don't think people are hugely opposed to elements like that, as long as they are not creating a clash with the gameplay of Heroes or wiping out something else that people are fond of lol

for example the undead philosopher Mesopotamian Buddhists is not a bad idea in terms of flavour and background lore, just look at Gauldoth for a good example of an undead, multifaceted philosopher, even the spider motif is not inherently a worse idea than griffin motif for Castle/Haven in Heroes 3,
there's no problem with that stuff for the *campaign*, having an official kingdom with a flag and philosophy and all that as long as you keep it subtle and flexible, for instance many people will not even have noticed that the flag of Krewlod is a wolf lol

however, there's more to Heroes than the official world and campaign,
Heroes is at its best when it functions as a sandbox, mapmakers need a relatively classical/typical undead lineup to be able to build their own worlds, and the fun of the Necropolis faction in Heroes is in being a power hungry troll raising mass armies of their dead to serve you, enslaving legions of skeletons and zombies and all that, they are a warped parody of the living, this is the whole playstyle and the entertainment value lol

thus if you are taking JVC's gameplay and applying your own flavour motifs to it in the extreme beyond the campaign, by actually shoving in spiders and obscure things like Namtarus to the official lineup, altering the official necromancy mechanics to suit you, spider leg castle or making every official Necropolis hero a bland grey skinned supermodel, it quickly becomes this dysfunctional mess, and not only do you have to write lots of complicated made up bull **** to explain how this crap actually ties together in your own world, but so does any mapmaker have to justify it in their maps lol

by putting in the methhead Lich they are taking away the more classical and versatile skeletal Lich, by putting in bland grayscale "vampires" everywhere they are taking away the more diverse zombie and lich heroes, by really pushing and shoving Erwin's personal fanfics down the neck they are depriving us of far better fan works, by trying to make oh so clever lore they are dumbing down the game lol

SoilBurn said:
@Momo: Your views on the Oldverse lore are very biased like I said before. Good lore but not as deep or special as you think. I don't think it is worth discussing with you about it as you seem very absolute in your posts. Ashan might be generic & shallow, but at least it is fleshed out across many games (both story-wise and visually) iand creates a cohesive whole. This gives it a lot of plus points over the old universe for me personally.

Well, someone who worships A and condemns B without finding any gray areas in-between, does not sound very objective, do they?
I have stated here many times that I have played enough games in both universes, read a lot of stories outside of games (be it on Heroes-related websites or wiki articles) and I generally enjoy anything related to Might & Magic, regardless of the universe it takes place in. Of course some stories are better than others (and I agree that Ashan is generic, shallow fantasy in its core that copies other brands), but it also has its merits (which I have stated repeatedly). I am a big fan of being able to visualize the stories and the universe, and Ashan does a much better job at giving me one whole, that is not fractured in ten million pieces and several parallel worlds.


I mean, the thing is you could very easily do this same thing to anything lol

you could very easily take anything with an established setting or lore and destroy it or overwrite it, completely strip out whatever identity, themes or tone it has and repackage it to suit your purposes, that's not creatively intelligent or worthy, it's so plain and simple to do lol

take Dragon Age as a thought experiment for instance, we can probably agree that Dragon Age is trying to be a gritty, gory, slightly edgy medieval western fantasy action/tactics RPG focused on dialogue with roots in Baldur's Gate, that's the way it is for better or worse, nobody argues with that lol

let's say I am some random fedora who is a casual acquaintance with the head of Vivendi and Vivendi suddenly buys EA, and Bollore randomly appoints me and my cronies to creative direct Dragon Age going forward,
well you know I can very, very easily say meh, I don't care what Bioware and their following who bought those games did or thought or felt really, that's in the past, and it's a whole lot of continuity to look over and research, mehhhhhh, I will really not attempt to gather knowledge or adapt myself to suit this task, I will just follow whatever my own instincts are and pull my own fiction out of my ass, and they can slap the name Dragon Age on it for commercial reasons lol

suppose I'm a big fan of children's cartoon fantasy and horrible "comedic" fantasy like Epic Movie, and I apply my own vision full on to Dragon Age, and the next Dragon Age is in this out of left field setting called Erwinnia with no mention or acknowledgement of Thedas, where all the blood and gore is unceremoniously replaced by Looney Tunes style cartoon slapstick comedy, the focus on battle tactics and dialogue shifts to character action-style combat and fully scripted cutscenes, the gritty bleak setting now resembles the setting of Teletubbies, the Qunari are gone and replaced with knockoffs of the Draenei from Warcraft, the art direction is now more in line with a JRPG, etc, and this thing I've come up with is what Dragon Age is now, and you will like it or lump it lol

is that really Dragon Age in your opinion, just because the box says so, lol

well, as an individual fan, you may say yes of course it is, you may like Erwinnia, you may love it, you may well even prefer it, fine good luck to you, you've got yours,
but if one comes on to Dragon Age forums to bicker and argue, one must deal with the fact that there was no deep-reaching artistic debate or division, and resentment, about what the identity of Dragon Age was before, because nobody conceived that something so ponderous and arbitrary and weird, and purely business-driven could have happened to that property, but, there it is, lol



Momo said:
The so-called OldVerse, or original continuity has its own purpose and meaning. It makes its own decisions and has its own moral. It speaks divinity and delivers a nihilistic world in which everything you consider "divine" or "devilish" or "mythical" is just science too advanced for you to comprehend; it speaks of conflict and points out that no matter how advanced a civilization is, war comes after it nonetheless; it speaks of tragedy, of factions  who cannot ever be brought to peace no matter what because they're too fundamentally different from you; it speaks of barbarism and suggests that rebellion, even a just and legitimate rebellion for freedom, comes at the price of violence, ignorance and regress; it speaks of patriotism, faith and honor as the feelings that guide you forward but, essentially, because such feelings (and the societies built around those) are oblivious of the truth and sheltered by a limited comprehension of what happens around them. And so on. The setting of M&M is a fairly pessimistic world, very rooted in the themes that were en-vogue in the '90, with hints from Lovecraft, Conan the Barbarian, post-apocalyptic fantasy, archeo-fantasy and so on.

The old lore also had its unique traits in aesthethic and atmosphere - like humans being friend with griffins (even if that was actually enstabilished later, in H3 I think), wizards having a bizantine architecture with clockwork technology settled in snowy mountains, elves and dwarves being part of the same civilization and having a weird architecture that crossed far-eastern buildings with native-americans and celtic touches, necromances being some weird sort of nation/church culturally inspired to DrFrankenstein, a dust-grey land devoid of any color (barred spectral white and blood red), having a variety of barbaric kingdoms and cultures (ostensibly inspired to a variety of real-existing cultures as well, like mongols, mayans, vikings, arabs, etc) and races (orcs, goblins, lizards, gnolls, humans, etc). It features a nation of mercenary wizards with their pet monsters, and one of fiery demons that are actually aliens, as weird and stupid these things may sound. These are all things that could led you to instantly recognize something setted in Antagarich from something setted in, say, Azeroth or Ardania or Albion or Ivalice or Spira or Lordran or whatever the hell you like.

Now the point is not that I "worship" or "adore" these themes and traits, the point is that they are there. Some of these themes I find outdated, some of this artistic traits leave me unimpressed, some things about Ashan I even like more!

But that just isn't the point in question here. The lore that you call "fragmented" and not "fleshed out" is way more structured, recognizable, meaningful and characterized than Ashan, which doesn't just reinvent HOMM's lore, it strips that lore of everything that gave it purpose and identity.

And this is how and why Ashan, an "okay" fantasy setting in itself if not a good one, becomes insulting and spiteful - when it is forced on us wiping out a much more lively intellectual product that was already there.

And no, this isn't taste al all, it just is what happened.



verriker said:
SoilsBurn said:
You have 2 semi-intelligent creatures (Lizardmen, Gnoll) and 5 wild/mythical beasts fighting next to each other in an army. How do they do this and what keeps them together? Who is organizing those beasts, taming them and making them fight along each other? Should I assume that this "Hero" person is able to achieve such an impossible feat? This is not an army, it's a zoo - and it doesn't make any sense at all.

And even if I assume that the above army composition might be somehow miraculously possible (I don't), then I still have to somehow come to terms with the fact that this zoo of units lives together in the same "Fortress" in a Swamp somewhere? This notion is simply absurd and above all immersion-breaking. We are talking here about random mythical (mostly non-intelligent) beings, that are largely unrelated to each other from a social/co-operation perspective (for some of them you could make a stretch but - as a whole - not).

The same applies to H4 towns of course, H1/2/3 are not the only perpetrators of this. When I look at H4 Necro (combination of Demons and Undead, yeah right) or H4 Chaos (humans, harpies, nightmares, efreets and black dragons! Yay!) all I see is a beast encyclopedia, not a coherent, immersive town. And don't get me wrong, I still love that game. It just feels too random from a unit perspective.

Moving on to H5, Ubi did one good thing (among many not so good ones) and that was to rationalize the towns a bit. Now there is in all cases one main intelligent faction (or many in the case of Stronghold) leading the beasts and at least trying to create the impression that a diverse army/town composition can be logically viable. But then you might say: "And how do you tame Black Dragons as a Dark Elf? Why is a Dark Elf more able than a Lizardman to do this?". The answer is simple and lies in the well-explained setting. In the Ashan games all these little things (that would be otherwise nonsensical) are explained, either in the Scenarios themselves, or in accompanying material (Ashan compendium) or related games. This does not mean that you cannot create your own stories based on this faction. Quite on the contrary, this is as open as it ever was. I can create a Scenario based on H7 Sylvan exactly as well as I would with H3 Rampart (actually better, the town makes sense as a whole now due to the setting it is placed in). Now if you like the stories that Ubi decided to tell in this new setting or not, that is a completely different question.


I cannot understand the argumentation here as far as a comparison to the NWC approach mate, you are presenting aspects common to both settings as novel introductions in Ashan lol

first of all, as mentioned, the Lizardmen and Gnolls of Enroth are as intelligent as anyone else, they were certainly intelligent enough to kick the crap out of the more technologically advanced Erathia, I see no reason to brand them semi-intelligent, in the world that view would probably be considered a bit racist (a good example of a semi-intelligent being in the Might and Magic franchise is Queen Isabel) lol

secondly, I don't see any meaningful difference as far as logic between the random zoos of NWC Tatalian Fortress and AvLee Rampart and Erwin's Egg Chall Dungeon or Irolland Sylvan, they are all lineups stitched together by a rough theme and post-rationalized later in the specific fiction (Tatalia - swamp zoo led by Lizardmen, Gnolls and some Humans, AvLee - forest zoo led by Elves and some Dwarves/Humans, Egg Chall - underground zoo led by Dark Elves/Minotaurs and some Humans, Irolland - forest zoo led by Elves and some Humans) lol

the same applies to all towns of Enroth, Axeoth and Ashan, they are all either fully or partially a bunch of creatures arbitrarily mixed together, the Hydra in Tatalia is tamed by the Beastmasters in Tatalia there because its habitat is the swamp because they said so, same as they said so that the Hydra lives in caves is tamed by Dark Elves in Erwin's world, it just was placed there by Team Erwin and that's the way it is,
now we can write on and on endlessly some flavour text about how the Hydra came to be in Ashan, that Malassa birthed it in the cave etc etc, but this doesn't lend some divine or special scientifically-provable theory to justify why a Hydra should logically belong in a cave, it's subjective fiction local to the setting and the real-world mythology behind Hydras doesn't discriminate, one could easily have written that Shalassa birthed it in the swamp and wouldn't be more or less wrong or illogical lol

there isn't this great disjointed mess on one side and a better conceived world structure on the other, the only difference, is Erwin tended to rely more on racism and religious fundamentalism as a factor (e.g. Elves and their god vs Dwarves and their god vs Genies and their atheism vs Naga and their god, rather than Elves-Dwarves coalition vs Genies-Naga coalition), and Erwin felt it more necessary than NWC did to compile his often overwritten explanations in his various Ashan Bibles, rather than just fold out the history of the factions in the products and the stories lol

in a previous post you have said "I have played enough games in both universes" to fully understand the lore, thus I am under the impression you should be well aware the history of Tatalia and the Mudlanders is no less sufficiently explored or fleshed out than all the Egg-Challs and anything else Erwin concocted in Heroes 5,
please consider to replay the Heroes Chronicles and reread the lore and background literature of Heroes 3, this will offer you the answer to who the Beastmasters are and what they mastered the beasts cheers mate lol



verriker said:
ironically Erwin didn't do a bad job capturing the ideological essence of half of the factions, he correctly understood what the Haven, Preserve, Academy and Stronghold were all trying to achieve in past games, but he botched it by making things all about race all of the time lol

Heroes isn't (or wasn't) a clash of races or gods, it's a clash of kingdoms and worldviews lol

for me the lineup shuffles in Heroes 4 are one of the most entertaining aspects of the series in terms of world building because they show it's 100% ideologies and causes dominating factions rather than a race, a single hero class or one of the gods stolen from Disciples,

the Dwarves and Elves have split because of an ideological schism, their traditions are broken by the Reckoning and the Dwarves pragmatically realised they lost one planet already, their society needs to get on with it and is a better fit with the orderly types, while the Elf kingdom continues to obsess over whatever forest it finds itself in and tries to cope with the destruction of previous one it was attached to,

the Efreeti and Kreegans disagreed, rather than just bungling all these red, hellish guys together, they have distinct goals and motivations,
Efreeti have moved to the swamp with all the mindless lunatics and outcasts because they share the lawless and destructive attitude of the chaotic, while the slightly more cold and calculating but endangered Kreegans struck up a precarious alliance with the undead, as it's easier to preserve your race when the skeletons do the fighting,

Orcs, Trolls and Ogres have also gone their completely separate ways, the shamanistic Ogres and indeed the rugged Centaurs and Harpies finding kinship with the human barbarian tribes, the Orc society went down Tolkien's path for them and have turned into vandals and undesirables, while the Trolls abstain from politics, they just go into their caves lol

and each race has individuals who turned their back on the majority and have signed up to other factions like Yog, Damala and so forth lol

even if you disliked the Infernopolis for instance, which you're right to, you must admit it was very meta and interesting, in that at least they're not just playing into lazy expectations of what these beings would do,
like oh the Devils would never practice necromancy and mix with the Undead because it's thematically unsuitable or the gameplay doesn't fit, well of course they would mate if they have to lol, they're supposed to be intelligent beings with a hopes and dreams looking to survive in a world, not just pawns, themes or mere cartoons lol

as Erwin would say, "it's a lot like real life as we know it" lol

sure one may say it is does not seem to be in vogue with the dime a dozen fantasy approach of Humans hate Orcs hate Elves hate Dwarves etc, but that's the whole point, the most common creative mistake hacks make when they handle somebody else's license is to make the series bland, by destroying whatever stands out about that property, in order to copy and piggyback on whatever's currently trendy in the market, lacking any longsightedness or self-awareness (just look at anything Hollywood is doing or the new Metal Gear Solid zombie survival game lol) lol

certainly I'd say Erwin's reliance on a racist mentality in recent games is not at all what I'd call a modern approach anyway, that's the hoary old traditional approach both in reality and fantasy, I'd say it's more regressive and easy than anything lol



Momo said:
verriker said:
ironically Erwin didn't do a bad job capturing the ideological essence of half of the factions, he correctly understood what the Haven, Preserve, Academy and Stronghold were all trying to achieve in past games

Exactly so.

I suppose you'll disagree, but he also got quite well what made the undead of the HOMM unique - the fact that they don't see undeath as a means (for revenge, for power, for whatever) or as a curse (imposed by others or by their own pain, attachment to life, or whatever). They actually do consider undeath a purpose in itself, a desirable state for all humanity, an evolution of the mortal life.

HOMM3 went about this by making them all a bunch of drFrankenstein-minded individuals, HOMM5&co tried a more evoluted approach by making them literally lovers and preachers of undeath, celebrating their most fascinating aspects like eternity, tranquility, spiritualism etc. I don't think it was a bad approach per se.

On preserve I am not entirely sure, instead. By separating elves from dwarves it seems to me that he missed the inherent and important non-racial theme of the town. It's different to miss a detail or atmospheric touch (eg the wizards use arab architecture in snow territories because they're magical and they can do whatever the f*** they want) from the core spirit of a faction (rampart is about the fairy aspect of nature, not about a race).

verriker said:
he botched it by making things all about race all of the time lol

verriker said:
Heroes isn't (or wasn't) a clash of races or gods, it's a clash of kingdoms and worldviews lol


While this is very true, I don't entirely agree you see. It was a clash of worldviews, but it was sometimes nice that even the main actors didn't actually act as expression of a faction but as their own.

I made an example of the undead vision of things, but bear in mind that among the five main undead heroes in HOMM3-4 (Finneas Vilmar, Sandro, Lich King Gryphonheart, Gauldoth Half-Death, Master Kalibarr) actually only one shared the vision of Deijya, the others merely took advantage of it for their own feelings, ambitions and philosophies. Take on the opposite Arantir: he just walks around in ToTE to preach the creed of his faction, forwarding the purpose of his faction, leaving the scene as soon as his faction does. Period.

I think they "botched" it for a variety of reasons, not just because the Ancients' backstory is better than the dragon gods' backstory. I think that making everything easily schematic, classified, ruled, and dictated by lore (speaking aesthethics, of plots and of characters here, but notice that gameplay is also dictated by lore, and that their marketing is virtually centered only about lore and 0 about gameplay) is how they went overboard and ruined even the good parts the lore had.

Example, I saw Cate Griffin's portrait for half a second in HOMM6 and I could tell: "Hey so Cate went with the Dark Dragon Malassa!" Why so? She didn't say anything about Malassa in that scene. Because it was color-paletted. Because everything and everyone in Ashan is clearly divided, catalogued, colored, branded, and finalized. To Erwan LeBreton's lore.

I also think this is why is LeBreton who capitalizes so much hate from the fandom.


verriker said:
Momo said:
I suppose you'll disagree, but he also got quite well what made the undead of the HOMM unique - the fact that they don't see undeath as a means (for revenge, for power, for whatever) or as a curse (imposed by others or by their own pain, attachment to life, or whatever). They actually do consider undeath a purpose in itself, a desirable state for all humanity, an evolution of the mortal life.

HOMM3 went about this by making them all a bunch of drFrankenstein-minded individuals, HOMM5&co tried a more evoluted approach by making them literally lovers and preachers of undeath, celebrating their most fascinating aspects like eternity, tranquility, spiritualism etc. I don't think it was a bad approach per se.


yeah I guess you're right about that when you mull it over, the basic concept from Erwin as you describe it is not really a contradiction of previous games, when you take away the god aspect lol

I left it aside because I do think it needs to be more multidimensional than Erwin would have it though, there ARE the power-hungry crazy cartoon villain Necromancers harvesting entire populations for their own crazy revenge, just as there are the mad fundamentalist fanatics of the Haven who want to destroy everything heretical to them, IMO Erwin underrepresented these too much,

as you pointed out, outside of Heroes 4 we spend more time in the games taking charge of the megalomaniac Necromancers, neither for Darkmoor (Heroes 2) nor Deyja itself do we ever control them in an incarnation where they're not twisted, in Heroes 3 even the sane Necromancers who later rebel against Gryphonheart are still vindictive people out for revenge against Erathia, who gleefully ravage their lands, murder them and raise their dead,
so you could argue the toss over what the normative, representative state is for those kingdoms and the faction's motivations (historically Deyja's politics and motivations are similar to your description, but Krewlod is historically similar to Mel Gibson's Scotland and later angry shamanistic barbarians, yet in Heroes 3 they're more like a money hungry foreign legion, which of these three things best represents the H3 Stronghold, well that's up for debate) lol

the Necropolis is a bit different to other towns in that sense, it's not a race-oriented town per se, they are a uniquely discriminatory town (only undead need apply), since undead is not a race but a subset of various other races I think the factions need to be able to encompass the rational side of necromancy, the mindless slave side, the tragic emo side, and the beautiful side, but I think it's a mistake to pretend all the undead can ever have a singular goal and present them all unified as part of one god's cult, who are all sniffing spider venom, etc lol

Momo said:
On preserve I am not entirely sure, instead. By separating elves from dwarves it seems to me that he missed the inherent and important non-racial theme of the town. It's different to miss a detail or atmospheric touch (eg the wizards use arab architecture in snow territories because they're magical and they can do whatever the f*** they want) from the core spirit of a faction (rampart is about the fairy aspect of nature, not about a race).


true indeed, well that's what I'm getting at more or less, he wasn't wrong apart from the Elves racial thing lol

IMO, the racial monopoly is a problem with that town both in Heroes 4 and Heroes 5, even though Heroes 5 is more extreme about it it's still the Elf town in both incarnations (dominated by only Elf heroes and some humans),
if it were up to me, I think it would have been logical to fold the Lizardmen into that town for Heroes 4 to give it a bit more diversity and spice, however the complete absence (extinction?) of the Lizardmen and Gnolls in Heroes 4 is a powerful decision which works to amplify the tragedy of the Reckoning and extend the story's themes, so maybe it's better off the way it is lol

Momo said:
While this is very true, I don't entirely agree you see. It was a clash of worldviews, but it was sometimes nice that even the main actors didn't actually act as expression of a faction but as their own.

I made an example of the undead vision of things, but bear in mind that among the five main undead heroes in HOMM3-4 (Finneas Vilmar, Sandro, Lich King Gryphonheart, Gauldoth Half-Death, Master Kalibarr) actually only one shared the vision of Deijya, the others merely took advantage of it for their own feelings, ambitions and philosophies. Take on the opposite Arantir: he just walks around in ToTE to preach the creed of his faction, forwarding the purpose of his faction, leaving the scene as soon as his faction does. Period.


I should have clarified that IMO in the bigger picture overall we have kingdoms/worldviews/themes/terrains clashing (as in, that's the basic premise the factions themselves are built upon, even in the most changeable example we can still recognize a very obvious legacy, motivation and line of commonality between The Warlock Faction, The Swamp Faction and The Chaos Faction, but The Dark Elf Faction and The Malassa Faction cease to follow) lol

of course certainly, the actual stories themselves don't always represent the premise of the faction or flow directly from it, or it would be a predictable and boring story, we'll see characters of other factions gradually coming around to the philosophy of the new ones (Tarnum and Yog), characters advancing or shifting the faction from within (like Emilia and Kilgor), etc, often the stories will subvert the premise of the faction to keep things fresh, but the premise is what it is lol

Momo said:
I think they "botched" it for a variety of reasons, not just because the Ancients' backstory is better than the dragon gods' backstory. I think that making everything easily schematic, classified, ruled, and dictated by lore (speaking aesthethics, of plots and of characters here, but notice that gameplay is also dictated by lore, and that their marketing is virtually centered only about lore and 0 about gameplay) is how they went overboard and ruined even the good parts the lore had.

Example, I saw Cate Griffin's portrait for half a second in HOMM6 and I could tell: "Hey so Cate went with the Dark Dragon Malassa!" Why so? She didn't say anything about Malassa in that scene. Because it was color-paletted. Because everything and everyone in Ashan is clearly divided, catalogued, colored, branded, and finalized. To Erwan LeBreton's lore.

I also think this is why is LeBreton who capitalizes so much hate from the fandom.


lol you got that right for sure lol

well when I say he botched this or that for this or that given reason here, I'm still firmly focused on this whole NWC compared to Ashan narrative where lore and themes and the like is the topic, certainly I'm not disagreeing with the borsuk posts where he's arguing that binary narrative is wrong and that lore shouldn't even be near the forefront, and I could write a lot longer about everything that feels wide of the mark in Erwin's work from all sides, but that'll take all day lol



Momo said:
Apologies for the lenght fellow readers but I just enjoy debating on interesting things! The gameplay doesn't offer much of them, so! Sorry everyone!

And thanks verriker for the good stuff! That said...

verriker said:
there ARE the power-hungry crazy cartoon villain Necromancers harvesting entire populations for their own crazy revenge,


Yes, true. But see that from their perspective, in their eyes they are sacrificing a few guinea pigs to complete the path that goes from religion (---> sorcery ----> alchemy ----> necromancy --->  ...) to a universalized godhood state, which means basically to create an humanity that trascends death and pain. And they are hated and persecuted for it. Notice that Bracada and Erathia don't wish to regulate their research or avoid abuse of it, they just want to flat-out wipe out them and all of their knowledge without compromise. Queen Catherine is the first who actually shows some measure of diplomacy toward undead except Archibald Ironfist which, well, was a twisted guy so he doesn't count.

So yes - they want revenge, and they use the magic they aptly mastered to get it.

Finneas Vilmar is described as a guy who wanted to end the moderate policy of Deyja and get payback for their persecution. It plays intrigue and becomes actually king of Deyja, then he brings Gryphonheart back for the purpose. And dies, ok, but he still makes sense as a character.

It is also mentioned of a Church of the Sun adverse to a Church of the Moon (the latter condoning the use of necromancy) that was so stubborn and extreme in their persecution that they led themselves to ruin and their country along with the rival Church of the Moon. Basically for erathians institutions to erase undeath and researches on it is a holy call.

This doesn't mean the necromancers are good people of course or a bunch of misunderstanded benefactors (they think they are though, probably). It means they have a credible motivations, which is exactly what Erwan LeBreton accused them to lack (it was in some interview I think?)

You know, just because a videogame's lore isn't thrown in our face with wall of texts it doesn't mean it isn't there. If you are interested in motivations (you might not be) these are there to be found and they are solid and even fascinating.

NB: I knew nothing of most, actually nothing at all, of this before I started doing researches to understand why old school fans hate the new lore. The more I delve deep in the 3DO lore, the more fascinating and full of potential it sounds.


verriker said:
just as there are the mad fundamentalist fanatics of the Haven who want to destroy everything heretical to them, IMO Erwin underrepresented these too much,


Well we got to be fair to Erwan LeBreton and admit that the fanatic side of Haven was barely hinted in the original games (Church of the Sun could be considered a minor example). Haven (Castle) and Inferno actually had an apparent flat morality that would make everyone cringe.  On the other side, there are background reasons for that. Kreegans expecially are bio-engineered weapons created by some eldritch civilization to disrupt the order (=ravage the worlds) created by the Ancients, so they have not much space for a morally valid standpoint.

verriker said:
so you could argue the toss over what the normative, representative state is for those kingdoms and the faction's motivations


Yes, which made things more interesting!

Are the barbarians and the mudlanders really the remnants of a noble resistance against the Wizards Kings of Bracaduun, or maybe they are crude, brutish, power hungry mercenaries reveling their uncivilized state? Is AvLee truly the sanctum that encompasses all life in nature, or they are just naive idiots who don't ever act when they should (Shaera's father, king Parson) or let psychos command them (Gelu, Harke) without having a clue? Is Bracada a light of progress and science or the heritage of a century-long tyranny? Are  necromancers just medics who went very extreme in fighting death or they're just maniacal sadists?* Does a middle ground even exist, between preserving life and trascending death, or between techological/magical order (=control) and an uncivilized freedom?

*(interestingly, there's also a long-standing question of ancient philosophers about surgeons actually being repressed sadists)

This is moral complexity! This is having contradiction and conflict! This is an adult story! These are themes! Not Isabel burning a few peasants alive to act all gritty dammit!

And once again yes - nothing of this is thrown in your face in the games, but all of this is part of the lore.

verriker said:
who are all sniffing spider venom, etc lol


Good heavens, the spider venom. Why do I have to remember about the spider venom? How goddamn stupid.

It's probably my own personal taste though - I hated the spider venom idea and I love the undead sphinx (lammasu) unit, surely there are some out there who feel the opposite.

verriker said:
*stuff about factions in HOMM4*



Yeah but to be generous with HOMM4, it gave its story-related reasons as to why races where mixed, divided, etc etc etc

I think you made a post about that yesterday?

verriker said:
The Dark Elf Faction and The Malassa Faction cease to follow


Because Dark Elves are the most unrelated thing to the old lore Erwan LeBreton could ever hope to conceive ever. By no coincidence is also the one that most screams Warcraft.

verriker said:
of course certainly, the actual stories themselves don't always represent the premise of the faction or flow directly from it, or it would be a predictable and boring story,


Just like so.

verriker said:
I'm not disagreeing with the borsuk posts where he's arguing that binary narrative is wrong and that lore shouldn't even be near the forefront,


I don't think b0rsuk is entirely off the mark, but I still think that a subtly hinted lore, or an hard-to-research lore, or a lore distributed into a lot of chapters, by no means are lore with less dignity or strenght. I genuinely think 3D0's lore was pretty good. Not being forced down your throat could be considered a plus, anyway.

____________
#Give JVC Might and Magic rights back!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted September 30, 2016 06:16 PM

Couldnt you do those quotes better? Eugh

Its funny. People here who say Ashan vampires ripoff from Twilight are right for the wrong reasons. They say it because they are pretty (which ignores pretty much every vampire depiction post nosferatu but w.e.) but the actual reason is the "vampire venom replacing their blood" thing


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted September 30, 2016 06:42 PM
Edited by Galaad at 18:43, 30 Sep 2016.

Better how?
____________
#Give JVC Might and Magic rights back!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 43 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 39 40 41 42 43 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1994 seconds