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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 423 pages long: 1 50 100 ... 145 146 147 148 149 ... 150 200 250 300 350 400 423 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted March 31, 2016 04:39 PM

Noticed some mana issues regarded to new spell requirements

Pixies can cast Wasp swarm only once cause it costs 6 mana and they have 10.
Pit fiends cannot cast fireball - they have 10 mana and it costs 12 (not verified yet but when I fought them they did not cast it).

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rottenvenetic
rottenvenetic


Known Hero
Derusticated
posted March 31, 2016 05:46 PM

Seconded on sprites. Pit fiends can still cast Fireball as they have 15 mana. At least mine do but the AI doesn't seem to value it highly, using Vulnerability instead.
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tr808drumz
tr808drumz

Tavern Dweller
posted March 31, 2016 06:26 PM

A barbarian hero getting a level 4 talisman (with town portal) loses the Town Management ability. Too bad I saved the game after I bought the talisman. Besides that, I was approaching an empty town with lots of troops to purchase (found out later when I conquered it), but I managed to walk in without battle the next day. According to the tavern info, the AI has 640k gold, so it could possibly buy any amount of troops to defend the town.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 31, 2016 09:01 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 21:03, 31 Mar 2016.

magnomagus said:
@thGryphn: I have no issue with this change itself, but it affects a lot of entries in the txt files. If you really want to do it then create a new separate folder  in which you put all your changed txt having exactly the same folder structure as my file so I can later simply merge and overwrite them (prefering yours). Do not edit the mmh55-txt.pak itself. I have been over this files so many times and have no willpower to do it again.



I really don't think any change is needed in the txt.pak file. I looked into it, and the description for the 'Elemental Summoning' (which shows on mouse-over) reads like this:

"For every shatter skill the hero masters at advanced level a number of elemental guardians will be summoned in the garrison of every owned town every week. The town needs to be of the same alignment as the hero and the amount of summoned elementals depends on the level of the hero and the Mage Guild. The type of elementals depends on the faction of the player: Haven (Air), Sylvan (Water), Inferno (Fire), Necropolis (Water), Academy (Air), Dungeon (Earth), Fortress (Fire), Stronghold (Earth)."


This already does not match the description that you find on the current SkillWheel pages, where the detailed formula for the number of summoned elementals are given. So, I think this in-game description can stay as it is. It serves as a summary info, and the skill wheel will give the details as intended.


About "Learning" vs "Enlightenment", I think I get it now why it should actually be named differently for the Barbarians. I mean, Barbarians are conceptually different: we don't expect them to be 'enlightened' or sophisticated but they can have rather experiential 'learning' which amounts to the bonuses provided by the skill. So, very different at the core, but only the same benefits from the skill.

That lead me thinking, wouldn't it be nicer if "Learning" used different (but somewhat similar) icons. Barbarian version of the icons, if you will, which I developed like this:



What do you think?

This way, Learning would be recognizably different from Enlightenment. You know what got me thinking on this: when I saw the Druid class icon next to the Veteran class icon, in the Classes Overview page. They are identical, and it makes you think Veteran class specialty is also Enlightenment, which it is not.

If you like them, I can develop all the necessary dds copies in all sizes required...



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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted April 01, 2016 01:09 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:11, 01 Apr 2016.

@dredknight: the pit fiends already have 12, the sprites can arguably use +2.

@ThGryphs: the desc txt matches the skilltree txt minus the formula, because it became too long. But they were intended to match.

I cannot see this way whether the colorization on these icon looks good without the perk icons and the brown background, but I have a feeling you are coming up with another 10 of these minor suggestions, please  leave those things until the job is done.

If there is still energy left after all that work we can focus on polishing these very minor details when I can see them in the product as a whole.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 09:09 AM

No, I don't have any other suggestions (for now). This last one came up when I was finalizing the icons on the wheel, where Learning will find its place too

OK, I have two important questions, answers of which will impact the Skillwheel design:

1) @mango, Each class has their probabilities to acquire those 12 skills. The question is, does it prohibit them from acquiring any other skill from Witch Huts, etc? (I'm guessing and hoping, no)

2) POLL: For each class, what would be the 2 skills (other than the 12) that would be likely candidates for a player to pick, that suits well with what the class is about?

To preempt your answers to the poll, some special case skill requirements (that you see at the current Appendix page) mandate adding a particular skill. For example, for the Knight, Dark Magic should be there for the Twilight perk.

The other way to solve the problem above is to ignore those special cases, but then they should not appear on the skill wheel "for that class only". E.g. remove Twilight perk from the Knight's skill wheel.

I'm waiting for your input, thanks


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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted April 01, 2016 10:59 AM

1) Yes, you can get skills, which otherwise are unattainable for a class, from Witch Huts. However, not all of them. Some skills get replaced, like Occultism with Combat, some do not, like Necromancy. I consider the latter as a flaw. Builds are complex enough without Witch Huts random element thrown in.
2) General rule of thumb is might classes benefit from Empathy + Light Magic and magic classes aren't very dependent on the race or the amount of units in the army, so the Dark + Summoning Magic is a generic pick for a mage.
But even between heroes of the same class there could be a difference. Irina is a perfect candidate for going Preparation (Attack + Combat + Defense) + Light Magic, while Bertrand is more suited for Stunning Strike + Empathy + Power of Speed.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted April 01, 2016 11:35 AM

strigvir said:
2) General rule of thumb is...


I agree that some witch huts throw confusion but rule of the thumb does not exists here. Everything is good and can be utilized efficiently.

For example I am playing Inferno Demon lord with no Dark and no Gating (just picked it up on week 2, month 2 actually) and I am currently doing quite well.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 12:43 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 12:45, 01 Apr 2016.


strigvir said:
1) Yes, you can get skills, which otherwise are unattainable for a class, from Witch Huts. However, not all of them. Some skills get replaced, like Occultism with Combat, some do not, like Necromancy. I consider the latter as a flaw. Builds are complex enough without Witch Huts random element thrown in.
2) General rule of thumb is might classes benefit from Empathy + Light Magic and magic classes aren't very dependent on the race or the amount of units in the army, so the Dark + Summoning Magic is a generic pick for a mage.
But even between heroes of the same class there could be a difference. Irina is a perfect candidate for going Preparation (Attack + Combat + Defense) + Light Magic, while Bertrand is more suited for Stunning Strike + Empathy + Power of Speed.


Hmm, so those replacements are done by MMH5.5? If that's the case, I would think it's for a good reason, to make the WH suggestions more relevant and useful. In any case, one can always deny WH suggestions, for a desired build.

And, that's exactly what I was asking about: Given the choice, what specific 2 skills (not perks, and other than the 12) would you pick for each of the 24 classes? I'm asking for this input because I will include a total of 14 skills for each class on the skill wheel.

Thanks for the input so far, and keep more coming

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted April 01, 2016 12:47 PM

the only reason wh do not always exactly match the heroclass is because it was to much work to create 22 different patterns.
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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted April 01, 2016 01:14 PM

@antalyan where is mmh5.5 page on http://www.heroes-centrum.com/ ?
@magno Fortress Heroes & Classes

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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 02:05 PM

thGryphn said:

strigvir said:
1) Yes, you can get skills, which otherwise are unattainable for a class, from Witch Huts. However, not all of them. Some skills get replaced, like Occultism with Combat, some do not, like Necromancy. I consider the latter as a flaw. Builds are complex enough without Witch Huts random element thrown in.
2) General rule of thumb is might classes benefit from Empathy + Light Magic and magic classes aren't very dependent on the race or the amount of units in the army, so the Dark + Summoning Magic is a generic pick for a mage.
But even between heroes of the same class there could be a difference. Irina is a perfect candidate for going Preparation (Attack + Combat + Defense) + Light Magic, while Bertrand is more suited for Stunning Strike + Empathy + Power of Speed.


Hmm, so those replacements are done by MMH5.5? If that's the case, I would think it's for a good reason, to make the WH suggestions more relevant and useful. In any case, one can always deny WH suggestions, for a desired build.

And, that's exactly what I was asking about: Given the choice, what specific 2 skills (not perks, and other than the 12) would you pick for each of the 24 classes? I'm asking for this input because I will include a total of 14 skills for each class on the skill wheel.

Thanks for the input so far, and keep more coming




So, you wish to expand every class for 2 more skills, is that it?
The way I understand and feel inner workings of the classes, not only that that isn't needed, but this arrangement of 12 skills, as it is, really gives extremely interesting kinds of specializations.
So, I think that 12 skills per class are just fine. I like choice that addresses the process which of those 12 will become 8. Of course, there are things that I would like to change, like give Warden Sorcery instead of Leadership, but, that doesn't mean that I would like 14->8 choice instead of 12->8.
In my opinion, 12->8 carries greater punch than 14->8.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 03:07 PM

^ You misunderstood what I'm trying to do. I'm not suggesting classes should have access to 14 skills as part of natural level up. I'm saying that I want to "show" 2 extra skills on the skill wheel, to address external skill acquisitions thru WH, etc. I well know that such acquisitions are not intended by MMH5.5 (in fact, just the opposite). I'm just trying to provide a tool that will be useful for even those fringe cases.

For example, what if you decide to pick up Dark Magic for your Knight?

More drastic situation that's guaranteed to happen: Chieftain with Shouting and Veteran with Learning.


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Belisarius
Belisarius


Promising
Known Hero
posted April 01, 2016 03:41 PM

Assassin: Combat and Light magic.
Warlock: War Machines and Leadership
Overlord: Light magic and Summoning magic

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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 04:16 PM

thGryphn said:
^ You misunderstood what I'm trying to do. I'm not suggesting classes should have access to 14 skills as part of natural level up. I'm saying that I want to "show" 2 extra skills on the skill wheel, to address external skill acquisitions thru WH, etc. I well know that such acquisitions are not intended by MMH5.5 (in fact, just the opposite). I'm just trying to provide a tool that will be useful for even those fringe cases.

For example, what if you decide to pick up Dark Magic for your Knight?

More drastic situation that's guaranteed to happen: Chieftain with Shouting and Veteran with Learning.




Bugs should be debugged. Skillwheel should not cherish cognitive dissonance provided by bugs that should be debugged.
I mean, this is a popular mod, why not stand up to the challenge of consistency?
The polls about certain issues are different thing from attempt to treat bugs as a source of possible consistency.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 04:44 PM

Skeggy said:
thGryphn said:
^ You misunderstood what I'm trying to do. I'm not suggesting classes should have access to 14 skills as part of natural level up. I'm saying that I want to "show" 2 extra skills on the skill wheel, to address external skill acquisitions thru WH, etc. I well know that such acquisitions are not intended by MMH5.5 (in fact, just the opposite). I'm just trying to provide a tool that will be useful for even those fringe cases.

For example, what if you decide to pick up Dark Magic for your Knight?

More drastic situation that's guaranteed to happen: Chieftain with Shouting and Veteran with Learning.




Bugs should be debugged. Skillwheel should not cherish cognitive dissonance provided by bugs that should be debugged.
I mean, this is a popular mod, why not stand up to the challenge of consistency?
The polls about certain issues are different thing from attempt to treat bugs as a source of possible consistency.



Look, I'm all for bugs being debugged. Heck, I'm just learning that this (the fact that you can learn a skill outside the 12) is actually a bug.

However, until those bugs are ironed out, I cannot bury my head in the sand and act as if those instances are not possible. As I said, I'm trying to cater to the player.

This whole idea of including more than 12 skills on the wheel started with my observation of the Chieftain and Veteran. Those classes "start with" skills that are not on the list of 12 (due to a hard-coded issue, I know, but the fact remains at the time being). So, what am I supposed to do in providing a Skill Wheel? Ignore that? Come on...

I get that you're a purist, and believe me, I'll easily "fix" the Skill Wheel as soon as this bug is resolved. Until then, I'll provide a useful tool that addresses these cases.

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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 05:25 PM

thGryphn said:

Look, I'm all for bugs being debugged. Heck, I'm just learning that this (the fact that you can learn a skill outside the 12) is actually a bug.

However, until those bugs are ironed out, I cannot bury my head in the sand and act as if those instances are not possible. As I said, I'm trying to cater to the player.

This whole idea of including more than 12 skills on the wheel started with my observation of the Chieftain and Veteran. Those classes "start with" skills that are not on the list of 12 (due to a hard-coded issue, I know, but the fact remains at the time being). So, what am I supposed to do in providing a Skill Wheel? Ignore that? Come on...

I get that you're a purist, and believe me, I'll easily "fix" the Skill Wheel as soon as this bug is resolved. Until then, I'll provide a useful tool that addresses these cases.



I can understand and respect your wish to chart the inconsistencies.
I suppose you can extensively test every possible hero with every possible deviation for MMH55_RC6.exe and create skill wheel that will show individual tendency of deviation for every hero.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted April 01, 2016 05:37 PM

thGryphn said:

1) @mango



Ideal post for today
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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted April 01, 2016 05:44 PM
Edited by Antalyan at 15:20, 03 Apr 2016.

Belisarius said:
@antalyan where is mmh5.5 page on http://www.heroes-centrum.com/ ?



Unfortunately this site is not updated much during last months.
Also many sections are half-finished and I doubt they will ever be done.

The only information about this great mod I have found on this site is the info on the forum, written by myself.

Heroes centrum forum



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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2016 06:01 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 18:05, 01 Apr 2016.

Skeggy said:

I can understand and respect your wish to chart the inconsistencies.
I suppose you can extensively test every possible hero with every possible deviation for MMH55_RC6.exe and create skill wheel that will show individual tendency of deviation for every hero.



I respect your view too. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have this conversation, but the current reality requires a skill wheel that covers beyond the ideal.

A completely optimized approach would require what you're suggesting above, but I'll settle with an approximate solution. That's why I asked people's input. Given whatever input I can get, my limited experience playing MMH5.5, and my overall Heroes experience and intuition, I will decide on those 2 extra skills. In a short while, I will share a tentative list and ask what people think about it.

One thing I believe is written in stone about this is that all Stronghold classes will get Shouting and Learning.


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