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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 01, 2016 06:22 PM |
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This is overall hardcoded from everywhere.
Another thing that just hit me is that Frenzy balancing is going to hell as well.
the minus damage is ok but I think we forget about the other creature retaliation damage? What if the frenzy creature hit hydra ? I have seen this between battle of my 2 folks at work, hydra retaliates and hits all surrounded allies... Moreover if the creature is not a hydra you still get plenty of damage transfered between those 2 units.
Even if the damage of berserk is 0% you get retaliation from the other unit. May be if frenzy can give no enemy retaliation but I guess this is harcodded too.
Meh..
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 01, 2016 06:53 PM |
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Are you sure it wasn't the hydra that was frenzied, normally a hydra doesn't attack friendlies.
btw you are right about puppet master duration, but that is fortunately not hardcoded.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 01, 2016 07:16 PM |
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 01, 2016 08:03 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Maybe a possible solution for frenzy:
Make it a much weaker lvl 2/3 spell that can only be cast on FRIENDLY units to boost damage
This actually sounds fresh! Assasins teleporting hydras and then frenzying it. Heretics are alright as well. It will come very handy for fortress and thanes/bears/dwarves.
Stronghold also will not suffer that much against dark.
Necros wont be able to use it though. But I doubt this will be a problem Dark is not even close to weak with this change cause it still has puppet and Blindness (which can be cast multiple times).
And for god`s sake I want to see a player that actually use dark as a cursing school and not constantly spaming berserk and puppet...
Make the changes I share a test pack if you want. I will try the same battle with them.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 08:08 PM |
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magnomagus said:
If that town is owned by an AI, you will get a CTD and be unable to continue the game.
What does CTD mean? Also, the AI has owned the town before - it just doesn't have an Artifact Merchant in it.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 08:15 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Maybe a possible solution for frenzy:
Make it a much weaker lvl 2/3 spell that can only be cast on FRIENDLY units to boost damage
That's not so bad as H3 had something like it - but it also reduced defence during its use and could still be controlled by the player. If we do this, will the AI have any idea how to use it, or will it Frenzy its own units and just have them attack each other?
Anyways, I still think that reducing damage to near-zero is a perfectly sensible alternative on Expert, since you're effectively knocking a unit out of combat for two turns, stealing retaliations, and making it get hurt, all at once. That's a LOT.
Also, re: Dredknight on Puppet Master - I don't know what's possible here, but my thought on solving this is to give Puppet Master a flat duration (like Frenzy - let's say 2 turns or 3), and make Spell Power affect how much the Initiative is reduced. So with low Spell Power, you can control the unit a little but at will to smash things, and at higher Spell Power you'll get more opportunities to smash things, but not THAT much more. I think this would be a viable control mechanism for the spell, without making Spell Power have no part in it.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 01, 2016 08:54 PM |
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I have tested my idea and i think it works great, not only does it fix the balance and puppet master+frenzy almost identical in purpose it also opens a whole new array of tactical moves (since the old spell was too expensive for that)
I don't think the AI will be a problem since the spell could already be cast on friendlies, I think it will simply not use it.
@Gizoda:
CTD =Crash to desktop, you will not have taht issue as long as the scripts break down the merchant
with your frenzy idea the name frenzy doesn't make sense and also keeps it similar to puppet master.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 09:33 PM |
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Elvin said:
Charge seems too high at lvl 5, battlerage is simply better. But it is bound to be imbalanced regardless of its tier. Most Toh maps had it banned back when multiplayer was still blooming.
Resurrect seems too low at lvl 3. I'd rather keep it at 35-40% and move to lvl 5. Then it can actually rival battlerage.
Agree with Elvin.
I'd be careful of nerfing frenzy as both Necro and Inferno depend on hitting either frenzy or Puppet to be competitive in the endgame.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 01, 2016 09:48 PM |
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Quote:
Agree with Elvin.
Have you looked at the replays that were uploaded?
Quote:
I'd be careful of nerfing frenzy as both Necro and Inferno depend on hitting either frenzy or Puppet to be competitive in the endgame.
You are thinking too much about TOE, this is outdated advice not applicable to H55.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 10:08 PM |
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Quick note... I took Inferno for a couple of spins over the weekend on Impossible, and I have to say Mag's gate change was genuis. With quality gating, dark mage guild pref, high attack, and good skill combos, they now feel like a faction with solid assets at their disposal.
I particularly liked the Gatekeeper succubus mistress hero and her ability to turn chain shot into a deadly weapon. Plus, the gatekeeper's class ability to have solid attack/battle frenzy, sorcery speed dark, gating, and shatter light/storm-wind was great.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 01, 2016 10:14 PM |
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 10:20 PM |
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I also tried out Inferno (not as extensively, I'm sure) and it really does feel a whole lot better!
Overseer's Explosion is crazy powerful and fun with them acting shortly after arriving. Thankfully it's somewhat balanced by how long it takes for the original stack to gate and the new stack to arrive.
I think for how powerful it is, it should also damage the overseer stack. They are exploding, after all.
Great work, as always!
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted June 01, 2016 10:20 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
Agree with Elvin.
Have you looked at the replays that were uploaded?
Quote:
I'd be careful of nerfing frenzy as both Necro and Inferno depend on hitting either frenzy or Puppet to be competitive in the endgame.
You are thinking too much about TOE, this is outdated advice not applicable to H55.
Nope, haven't looked at the replays  .
I fully get occultism has made destruction an option (my favorite hero in 5.5 is Sandro), but you also need to take into account the faction mage guild preference for spell schools..
I don't object to nerfing frenzy, just stating that it may have unforseen balance impacts.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 01, 2016 10:28 PM |
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azalen said:
I don't object to nerfing frenzy, just stating that it may have unforseen balance impacts.
Until hero has a proper chance of getting Blindness or Puppet the school is still very potent.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 01, 2016 10:32 PM |
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I watched the replays.
In the first one, academy made some mistakes. As far as I can tell..
- Ballista is a poor choice vs dwarves and even more so that late in the game. Two decent shooters and probable use of destructive makes ballista a bad investment. That ballista was fantastic but still, too risky a build.
- Saboteurs instead of master gremlins. That ballista could have been repaired.
- Ballista did not focus on taking out the shooters first.
- From my personal experience, summoning alone is lackluster, especially vs fortress. I always accompany it with light or dark.
- The viziers did not debuff the hell out of the dwarven troops. That could have helped a lot.
- Academy is not meant to take the offensive vs dwarves. It didn't seem so terribly important to send academy units to their death just to block the skirmishers. Academy could still outshoot them at the time.
- And finally, no mini arties. Perhaps the skill was not picked but a lvl 3 mini on titans and rajas would have had some impact on that game.
In the second game archmages should have had a blocker nearby, since it was known that fortress had puppet. That attack hurt!
Third game was more interesting. That early battlerage slaughter could have been prevented by gargoyles and thanes were a bigger priority over skirmishers for the ballista. I do not believe academy could have saved that one with fortress units having rune of charge but it could have been closer.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 01, 2016 10:57 PM |
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- Balista is a worthy and strong choice. I think all Mech units actually lack some HP. Actually this is the strongest balista one can get around.
- Saboteurs vs Gremlins - My bad I did not know they can repair balista. Can they do it if it is broken?
- Ballista did not focus on taking out the shooters first. - Not on round 1 but actually it did not matter as you can see I did just that on the other 2 rounds.
- Summoning is completely alright it just cant counter Frenzy.
- Vizier debuf - actually tried it but not a big deal. Fortress had 2 luck while vizier cast a random debuf between 1 and 3.
- Academy is not meant to take the offensive vs dwarves - Staying at home getting myself killed with Puppets and Berserk doesnt seem like a better option either.
- no mini arties - I decided to play like this deliberately. As you can see my hero has much better stats than the opponent. Instead of minis I picked Logistics and actually owned the map. Before we fought I passed 140k gold and a total of 100 of rare resources to the other player so he can buy his army and catch up cause his economics sucked. (he is curently not so advanced in h5).
I just didnt see a point in taking him out without a proper battle because:
- it will prove nothing as I know the game much better than him
- it wont help for further making this mod better.
You already see I have twice more titans than him. Easily I could have had nearly three times I just didnt bother to build the third town.
I actually didnt expect sucha great resistance but dark cought me offguard!
There was a fourth battle actually - after the 2 castle fights and before the open battlefield one but thegame crashed midgame so we coundnt save the replay.
I already knew he was tryin to get my mages with puppet so my initial setup was mages at one end and golems near them (front row).In front of mages there were 3 squares of rock so nobody could pass (including them). Here is a rough map R is rock. M is mage stack. G is golem stack.
R R R x x x x x
M G x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x
On round one I casted Blade barrier behind the mages so you can imagine this.
R R R x x x x x
M G x x x x x x
B B B x x x x x
Than mages shoot and he puppets mages.
I move my golems and cast second blade barrier so map becomes something like this.
R R R x G x x x
M B B B x x x x
B B B x x x x x
So now he had my mages puppeted but he couldnt kill anything with them or get a proper retaliation. Unfortunately the game crashed a few turns after so the outcome perished down the void but hands down this was my best effort to block the puppet but I dont think I would have won it... My balista was alive and his mages were down so probably if balista could hold for 2-3 turns a miracle may have happen but who knows...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 01, 2016 11:12 PM |
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Quote:
- no mini arties - I decided to play like this deliberately. As you can see my hero has much better stats than the opponent. Instead of minis I picked Logistics and actually owned the map. Before we fought I passed 140k gold and a total of 100 of rare resources to the other player so he can buy his army and catch up cause his economics sucked. (he is curently not so advanced in h5).
I often play academy without artificer on my main, but there is no excuse for not having a HP boost artifact on the gremlins (no matter how weak), a secondary hero can always make a few useful weak artifacts.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted June 02, 2016 12:20 AM |
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Have you noticed how no one talks about the poor orcs in 5.5 anymore?
Poor, sad orcs... attack stat nerfed... rage nerfed... still dark dominated by 8 skill heroes...
So very, very sad... If ony Mags could find it in his heart to forgive the orcs for past transgressions and give them back their mojo...
t's just not the same without the terrifying site of an uber attack power untamed cyclops crossing the battlefield in one turn to sweep 3 stacks at once...
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 02, 2016 01:54 AM |
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
- no mini arties - I decided to play like this deliberately. As you can see my hero has much better stats than the opponent. Instead of minis I picked Logistics and actually owned the map. Before we fought I passed 140k gold and a total of 100 of rare resources to the other player so he can buy his army and catch up cause his economics sucked. (he is curently not so advanced in h5).
I often play academy without artificer on my main, but there is no excuse for not having a HP boost artifact on the gremlins (no matter how weak), a secondary hero can always make a few useful weak artifacts.
So, Seer didn't have Magical Immunity, Divine Vengeance, Resurrection, Cleansing…
Better positioning, much more protection for shooters, ideally with blade barrier, but other units are also ok, right hierarchy of targets could do much. Still, that runes… I must admit I would like to try to replicate that game. Of course, there is a difference playing it live or analyzing it.
Dredknight, could you post what was configuration of the Heroes?
Besides that, now that frenzy is being ported to ‘friendly’ dark spells, probably to level 3 spells, wouldn’t it be nice that Pit Lords have a go with it? Meteor Shower was too grandiose spell for them anyway.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted June 02, 2016 03:09 AM |
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isti1222 said:
Ereinion156 said:
@gidoza: About the speed of heroes: the files for movement are under Characters/Heroes. the deathknights use the files of Duncan. In the move files theres one line called "MovementSpeed", if you change it to something around 9, this heroes should be at average speed (DemonLords=around 9.3, Warlocks=around 8.7).
I have observed, that the death knight currently use the Duncan-arena.xdb (strangely it still moves, but it doesn't even use move animation) for AdvMapAnimSet instead of Duncan_LOD-adv.xdb. (found out today, working on sareth recolor for Dougal  ) by changing that line, the deathknight will be as fast as the real Duncan
This is the file, in the DM folder: Sareth_M.(Character).xdb
Which file is this in? I'm not quite sure.
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