thGryphn said:

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More directly, I am trying to achieve this: If the attacker has Offense and the defender has Defense at the same skill level, then the damage modifications should cancel each other.

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magnomagus said:

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Quote:

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+6 A with (A-D)=0 to begin with increases damage by 19.8%

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Ok I think it still wasn't clear what i meant:

if A-D = 0 then the value of Offense SECONDARY SKILL = 6A on melee

because 1.2 x 1 = 1.2

BUT

if A-D = 6 then the value of Offense SECONDARY SKILL is already more than 7A on melee

because 1.2 x 1.2 x 1 = 1.44 and NOT 1.4

So what I'm trying to tell you is you can't raise Offense over 20% because than it becomes more powerful than the invested slots allow.

So while offense can grow up to being worth 10A, with defense secondary skill it is the other way around, it is worth around 10D at the start but lowers in value the more D primary skill you have.

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strigvir said:

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thGryphn said:

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More directly, I am trying to achieve this: If the attacker has Offense and the defender has Defense at the same skill level, then the damage modifications should cancel each other.

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No, they should not. The defending stack at disadvantage because of reduced number of units after being attacked. Defense should really contribute the damage reduction to worth a skill slot, especially since its skills are kinda trash anyway, if not playing heroes with T1-2 specialization.

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Quote:

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That's the only way you can say Offense and Defense skills are balanced.

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magnomagus said:

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Quote:

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That's the only way you can say Offense and Defense skills are balanced.

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That's is not entirely true, If both modify damage by 100% they are both overpowered even if they cancel each other out perfectly.

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magnomagus said:

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I don't want them to be worth exactly 6A or 6D since they only affect melee, they are therefore allowed to boost more and also if they don't work as primary skills that is a good thing otherwise they are even more boring skills (so I disagree with dredknights idea).

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magnomagus said:

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My conclusion so far is that I prefer setting both to 10-15-20, because I don't like the weird numbering that will be incomprehensible by people who didn't read all this stuff.

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magnomagus said:

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ok, that makes sense, but i would keep evasion and archery both 20% to further downgrade shooters vs melee

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thGryphn said:

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You should really read my posts before commenting on them. I am not assuming anything and I sure know how H5 combat works. I am trying to balance the impact of Offense and Defense secondary skills on the damage outcome. If it wasn't clear, we are talking about the Offense of the attacker and the Defense of the defender.

More directly, I am trying to achieve this: If the attacker has Offense and the defender has Defense at the same skill level, then the damage modifications should cancel each other. For example, Expert Defense should nullify the damage bonus of Expert Offense. Vice versa, Advanced Offense should nullify the damage penalty of Advanced Defense. Currently, this is not achieved, and Defense is trumping Offense.

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azalen said:

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For example, undead are already bad late game, but with a nerfed defense skill, they'd become nearly unplayable.  

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dredknight said:

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azalen said:

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For example, undead are already bad late game, but with a nerfed defense skill, they'd become nearly unplayable.  

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I am not convinced than undead are unplayable. I have had numerous overwhelming wins by overrunning the enemy with numbers. Also undead never ever have losses since day 1 due to raise dead spell and vampires.

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azalen said:

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dredknight said:

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azalen said:

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For example, undead are already bad late game, but with a nerfed defense skill, they'd become nearly unplayable.  

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I am not convinced than undead are unplayable. I have had numerous overwhelming wins by overrunning the enemy with numbers. Also undead never ever have losses since day 1 due to raise dead spell and vampires.

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I'm not arguing that Undead are a bad faction.  

Their advantage is creeping easy mode, as you state, with raise dead, vampires, and ghost blockers.  Their path to success is to break the gatekeeper stacks early compared to other factions and then proceed to overwhelm their opponents with sheer stats from major artifacts.  

However, if the opponent happens to be Sylven, Dwarven, Haven, Dungeon, etc... and they get to the late game, they are at a major disadvantage due to weaker units and their opponent having access to morale effects.  

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