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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 03:13 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 15:20, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
It is also worth mentioning in regular games tier1-4 start growing much earlier sometimes, so can be relatively stronger than in duel games (where numbers are often fixed on weekly growth). For H55 I need to take this into account.
HRTA is not duel format but PvP arena. Tier 7 has ~6-8 week growth (for example, 6-8 angels) but tier 1-2 has ~15 week growth + 2-3 from 2 heroes starting armies.
And magic heroes have 20-30 spellpower at ~20 level.
So you can compare this values with yours.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 24, 2017 03:18 PM |
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Just to fill in a few words about Diciano issue.
For some reason on his side reanimation patcher did not make the map LAN compatible. In the editor one can see mapscripts value but in the game you see it is still RMG.
What we did is: open the map with editor, change the mapscripts value manually and save the map. The issue is now gone.
I am not sure why this happens but he also claims mapmixer did not fix the map as well. He has no antivirus, we tried steps to go around windows 10 UAC as it can deprive some files from being edited if in C: drive. No idea...
Also the map I send him through the forums worked so I am confused why you said it is not lan compatible.
Cheers
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 03:22 PM |
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Quote:
Also the map I send him through the forums worked so I am confused why you said it is not lan compatible.
That is not what I meant, in any other case your map should be good. But apparently it is now good anyway. So RTMG is not needed.
EDIT:
Quote:
For some reason on his side reanimation patcher did not make the map LAN compatible. In the editor one can see mapscripts value but in the game you see it is still RMG.
As far as I know, mapscript activation has NOTHING to do with 'failed to load' error. Mapscript activation only fixes functionality bugs after the map is already loaded!!
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 04:04 PM |
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@Nargott:
Alpha version of Diamond Map
Diamond Alpha
L version with 16 towns
all connections done
balanced according to pattern 1=Haven, F=Haven.
This is what I currently specified
-starting zones 1 wood, 1 ore, 1 prison, 1 witch hut
-neutral zones 1 abandoned mine (I figured 4x each resource is too much)
2 versions:
M + underground
XL no underground
I first thought XL was best size, but I think Mu is better for short game. what is your opinion on current zone sizes and mines?
H55_BanksDifficulty = 1; this setting must be lowered in MMH55_Settings.pak otherwise Battle Sites will be much too strong.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 06:18 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 18:51, 24 Sep 2017.
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@magnomagus:
Thanks.
If it is no difficult, XL + underground is interesting too. Or it can be generated on the same other settings in ARMG without any problems?
So I have some questions about PvP in later game:
1) In HRTA there is imba if there are 1000 goblins against 20-22 level Magic hero, because they blocked his spells very hard. So you have 30-40 levels but how many goblins in late? What about 2-3 thousands of goblins, what Magic hero can do against them?
2) The same question about imps. How many mana in MMH5.5 they collect per thousand and how many thousands are in typical final battle in late game?
3) And counterspell. If both heroes have 200+ mana (which I called "unlimited mana" at PvP) and there are no 0.5 ATB mass spells, so counterspell may block many spells of the Magic hero, until mana runs out, if casters are killed. Do you check this moment for imba?
EDIT:
Quote:
what is your opinion on current zone sizes and mines?
Try play this template at Heroes 3, there may be any details which I don't remember. Or you don't have this game and don't play Heroes 3 anymore? 
How I remember there must me gold mines.
Plus different banks like Dragon Utipia, of cause.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 07:30 PM |
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Quote:
@magnomagus:
Thanks.
If it is no difficult, XL + underground is interesting too. Or it can be generated on the same other settings in ARMG without any problems?
A template is best used for only one size or 2 sizes that are almost the same. But I'm planning to turn this into a series of templates for multiple sizes.
1. Haven't paid attention to this recently but didn't get any complaints, but various shooters and the hero should be able to deal with them (ini 9)
2. I did get complaints about this and nerfed them, I'm not 100% sure it is enough.
3. No problem, since might classes have no access to sorcery.
Quote:
Try play this template at Heroes 3, there may be any details which I don't remember. Or you don't have this game and don't play Heroes 3 anymore? How I remember there must me gold mines.
Plus different banks like Dragon Utipia, of cause.
I have Heroes 3 and made a 108x108 + underground Diamond map to compare with. I estimate 136x136 + underground is more similar in gameplay, but since you have more experience with these maps I'm curious which you think is closer?
If you can tell me which of these has likely best gameplay I can design the other templates sizes based on that one.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 10:37 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 22:40, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
1. Haven't paid attention to this recently but didn't get any complaints, but various shooters and the hero should be able to deal with them (ini 9)
ini 9 is not a problem because of +1 ini aura and, if necessary, active ability of chieftains.
What about shooters, it is need to be tested, because there is fear my roar, for example.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 10:43 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 22:48, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
If you can tell me which of these has likely best gameplay I can design the other templates sizes based on that one.
I think that 16 zones is good for L, because lesser is bad.
But for XL if you want to try more than 16 zones, it is difficult to imagine them, so I think 16 zones is good also.
What is dynamic advantage of this template is that there are many zones and many ways, but if you find the path, you may come to your opponent quickly (only 3 zones between starting zones).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 11:16 PM |
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It looks like mana cost and spellpower penalties from defile magic can be modified:
<DefileMagicSpellPowerCoef>0.5</DefileMagicSpellPowerCoef>
<DefileMagicManaCoef>2</DefileMagicManaCoef>
But I don't know if those were the problematic ones, or was it just high failure chance?
Larger Diamond template will have same zoning yes, but can possible have extra dwellings in areas. But if zones are large I'm not sure players are very motivated to leave them early, isn't it possible for them to turtle and make game last much longer?
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 11:26 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 23:43, 24 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
But I don't know if those were the problematic ones, or was it just high failure chance?
The main problem is high failure chance (100% ban).
Quote:
But if zones are large I'm not sure players are very motivated to leave them early, isn't it possible for them to turtle and make game last much longer?
Players are always motivated to open new zones if they can do it. There is no point in dully sitting in the starting zone, completely clearing it, if there is a possibility of easy access to new zones.
General motivators are new towns (expansion). There is only one strategy with one-base game ignoring to capture towns - is rush, so rush is still linked with the opening of new zones.
Imagine that picture: one player is sitting in the starting zone with the only one town, while second player is capturing many new towns. So 10 towns > 1 town, who will win?
So the next motivator is scouting: if you sit in the starting zone, it means you don't see what is happen at other zones and what your opponent do, how many towns he is already have and when, from where and with what army he plan to attack you. In strategic game if you don't see what is doing your opponent, then you don't know how to react and your lose is nearly guaranted.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 24, 2017 11:38 PM |
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I did some quick tests in duel and yes you are right this is going to be a problem at 1000+ goblins.
Generally I'm not very happy the way stronghold defends against magic in combat, on the one hand they have defile magic. But if defile magic does not work or is weak they have nothing to 'cleanse' spells and can be puppeted and frenzied endlessly.
I wonder if it wouldn't be better if tier 4 can do a cleansing spell after sacrifice, ..or the witch doctors have cleansing instead of defile magic, but then nobody will pick the trappers, so this is difficult issue.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2017 11:52 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 00:09, 25 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
I did some quick tests in duel and yes you are right this is going to be a problem at 1000+ goblins.
This is one of the reason why a huge number of troops is bad (another is weak magic). Remove defiling? Not the most popular solution but I don't know what to do.
Quote:
I wonder if it wouldn't be better if tier 4 can do a cleansing spell after sacrifice
In WGE I do so (but giving mass cleansing).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 25, 2017 12:11 AM |
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Those defile coefs only affect the results, not the trigger chance. Only their creature growth affects the trigger chance. If defile works often you could weaken the effects but the chance to completely block a spell would remain unaffected.
After many tests on week 6 army strength, the original defile has a high chance to fail. But that is only true for a single town and no dwellings.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 25, 2017 12:34 AM |
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The issue with defile becomes unsolvable at some point because the success chance for goblins keeps growing linearly with their numbers, but for heroes the countereffect pretty much stops when they don't level fast anymore.
The good news is I was able to make them do their ritual dance when casting a cleansing spell, so this solves both issues except that they will become a must have in PvP and trappers are only good in PvE, but that was already the case anyway.
Quote:
In WGE I do so (but giving mass cleansing).
I believe mass spells on creatures cause AI to crash, but I guess that is not your problem.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted September 25, 2017 03:28 AM |
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Have you thought about moving Vampirism to Light and calling it 'life-link' (similar to how Magic the Gathering themes it?). There would be the thematic issue of making your units undead, which doesn't fit with light. Not sure if that can be changed or not.
magnomagus said:
I don't think this is something summoning desperately needs to do,to be a valid spellschool
Another idea: I think it is actually possible to move teleport to Dark tier 3, despite the connection with teleport assault, since the spell is almost completely mastery level neutral.
Teleport is actually a dark themed ability (vampires/devils) and H6 has another puple style icon available for it.
this will make:
Dark
Level 1: Sorrow, Weakness, Slow
Level 2: Decay, Vulnerability
Level 3: Confusion, Suffering, Teleport
Level 4: CotN, Blind
Level 5: Vampirism, Frenzy
Destruct
Level 1: Stone Spikes, Eldrich Arrow
Level 2: LB, IB
Level 3: FB, CoW,
Level 4: MS,CL
Level 5: DF, Implosion, Armageddon
Light
Level 1: Bless, Haste
Level 2: Endurance, Cleansing
Level 3: Deflect Arrows, Righteousness, Regenration
Level 4: MI, DV, Holy Word
Level 5: Resurrection, Celestial Shield
Summoning
Level 1: Magic Fist, Land Mine
Level 2: Wasp Swarm, Arcane Crystal
Level 3: Earthquake, Elementals, Blade Barrier
Level 4: Phantom, Hive, Firewall
Level 5: Mind Control, Phoenix
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 25, 2017 07:15 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 07:50, 25 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
I believe mass spells on creatures cause AI to crash, but I guess that is not your problem.
No crash but not effective use, often targeting only one target instead of several (so AI can't choose effective 4x4 area at ally troops).
Or there is really crash by issue with 3.0 exe in MMH5.5?
EDIT:
Dark teleport is the most strange decision from any other reshuffles. So I have practice to move Teleport to Summoning and Celestial Shield to Light but there was strong argue - allow targeting neurtal targets for teleport (when I had thought its ok for balance), so it was thematical for Summoning/Order school.
But targeting allies is not thematical to Dark (the only exeption is Vampiric, so Berserk is often casted to enemies). Also Light is aggresive school increasing your damage (Bless, Haste, Rightous Might - 3 increasing damage spells) but Dark is not (only Disrupting Ray increase damage, so Berserk is more controlling spell like Mind Control). And teleport often is aggresive attacking spell (especially with Teleport Assault) which is typical for Light.
If you put Mind Control to Summoning/Order, you deprive Dark to counter Phoenix. And if you put Teleport to Dark, you deprive Light to counter Berserk.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 25, 2017 09:54 AM |
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Tbh I never liked how hard puppet counters phoenix. In my version I have made phoenix immune to mind effects. It has the added benefit of making them immune to fear as the orcs could slow and keep spamming fear on them.
I always liked using teleport as a frenzy counter. It doesn't have many counters after all.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2017 10:10 AM |
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Elvin said:
Tbh I never liked how hard puppet counters phoenix. In my version I have made phoenix immune to mind effects. It has the added benefit of making them immune to fear as the orcs could slow and keep spamming fear on them.
I always liked using teleport as a frenzy counter. It doesn't have many counters after all.
I had suggested before making the Phoenix "elemental" and I'm still for it. It is an elemental being after all...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 25, 2017 10:15 AM |
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But then it becomes immune to regeneration and wasp swarm. More gameplay possibilities with living units.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2017 11:09 AM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 11:10, 25 Sep 2017.
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Elvin said:
But then it becomes immune to regeneration and wasp swarm. More gameplay possibilities with living units.
Surely, but I don't think that's a big concern. If no Regen, there is Celestial Shield. For ATB manipulation there is Ice or Lightning Bolt, or the Combat skill perk. My point with that suggestion was mostly about lore/fit but also a desire to make the Phoenix into an even more eccentric creature, something that you can not do away easily but only fight with and kill.
It makes the Conjure spell a bit more powerful only due to mind immunity. If you make it immune to mind without taking away the benefits of being a living creature, the spell becomes way too strong. Regen and Resurrect on the Phoenix makes it virtually indestructible, along with mind immunity.
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