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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 420 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 295 296 297 298 299 ... 300 350 400 420 · «PREV / NEXT»
StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 06, 2017 07:15 PM

magnomagus said:
@StrikerX: If your CPU is also very old, I think the crash is a performance issue since I remember the dungeon campaign much more demanding than others


It's a quad core with 8 gigs of ram.  I don't have any crashes other than the one on first turn.  But I am running Windows 10 64bit.  Well luckily the 32 bit one got me thru that.  For awhile I didn't think I'd get to finish the campaigns.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 06, 2017 08:50 PM

Ok then it was the issue explained in FAQ
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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 11:00 AM

magnomagus said:
Alright so now this thread has calmed down a bit, I can post my current findings on balance.

I have played a huge amount of duels comparing 5 week, 10 week and 20 week growth and the verdict is magic is in various cases still underpowered in late game, but they also have some issues that overpower them (both early and sometimes even late)




Hi, I have been quite enjoying 5.5 RC9b and with your mod it has been much more fun than any other HOMM game.

I almost always play against AI under almost the utmost level of difficulty. Only played once or twice in hot-seat against another human. And therefore my experience and suggestion might not be appropriate.

Still, I think MMH5.5 is quite biased towards magic skills, especially Summoning and Light, and therefore biased towards some hero classes that favor those two skills.

With only a few levels in Summoning, the heroes is equipped with firewall, summoning fire warrior spells. Adding light magic skills, the heroes will also learn regeneration at very early stage of the game. And resurrection a bit later. These are the skills that will preserve your army in any battle. Regeneration is very valuable and powerful when used upon top tier creature and summoned phoenix.  

In any HOMM games, the player is supposed to accumulate resources and build town structures so as to build a strong army; and then use the army to collect more resources and conquer. Thus it is very important to control battle field loss. If an army is crippled during one battle, the game will become very difficult thereafter, at least for a while.  

On the other hand, with only a few level of summoning and light magic and the bonus powerful spells, a player can build an advantage right from the beginning, keep or even widen the advantage gap thereafter.

In my experience, if I pick sylvan and start with a druid, I can always end the game much sooner than picking a ranger, or even the warden. Only exception is one special Warden hero, Ivor, who gain magic resistance after every level-up. With Ivor and unicorn, any shatter skill is unnecessary.

I understand that a hero with summoning and light will have a hard time facing a hero with shattering summoning and shattering light. But I still believe that the former will develop much faster against neutral armies and might be able to end the game before it enters the late stage.

Just 2 cents.

Looking forward to the newer version. And please bring more maps. Thanks.


 



 

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted October 07, 2017 11:20 AM
Edited by dredknight at 11:20, 07 Oct 2017.

Welcome to the community Sleepyfox !

I believe you may be interesting in this article with MMH55 strategies.

You make an interesting point about light and summoning.
Summoning is a great helper early game indeed but light magic lacks a lot of punch at that time (Besides regeneration) because the hero has no significant army to strengthen with boosters.

Did you try playing dark or destruction? They are quite versatile as well. Here are a few tips about them:
- Destruction allows you to carry small to none troops with you because the main damage dealer is the hero. This way your troops are rarely exposed so it helps gathering units for the late game.
- Dark magic is a bit tricky early game because just like light it is not strong enough to weaken the enemy units but spells like forgotfulness and blindness help a lot against PvE casters and ranged units. Actually we did miscalculate a few things and in RC9b slow is overpowered (in comparison to haste) which will be fixed in the next release. Mid-late game dark is very potent when it comes to Puppet or vampirism they help you keep casualties away. Check this replay as an example.
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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 11:50 AM

dredknight said:
Welcome to the community Sleepyfox !

I believe you may be interesting in this article with MMH55 strategies.

You make an interesting point about light and summoning.
Summoning is a great helper early game indeed but light magic lacks a lot of punch at that time (Besides regeneration) because the hero has no significant army to strengthen with boosters.

Did you try playing dark or destruction? They are quite versatile as well. Here are a few tips about them:
- Destruction allows you to carry small to none troops with you because the main damage dealer is the hero. This way your troops are rarely exposed so it helps gathering units for the late game.
- Dark magic is a bit tricky early game because just like light it is not strong enough to weaken the enemy units but spells like forgotfulness and blindness help a lot against PvE casters and ranged units. Actually we did miscalculate a few things and in RC9b slow is overpowered (in comparison to haste) which will be fixed in the next release. Mid-late game dark is very potent when it comes to Puppet or vampirism they help you keep casualties away. Check this replay as an example.


Hi, thanks a lot for the tip. I've got the impression that in the early stage, destructive spells and skills cannot deal as much damage as creatures with spell ability or summoned creatures (summoned creatures or barrier also block the battle field), and more than occasionally I find that in battle field it is better to use spell to boost/resurrect the friendly creature, summon creatures, or to block the enemy, instead of directly damaging the enemy creatures. Keep the friendly creature (especially shooters) in safe and comfortable position and let them do the damage.

I agree that destructive skills/spell can also have lasting effect (like freezing) and I haven't quite look into this.

Slow is more powerful compared to haste (And yes haste sometimes can seem not so useful in the battles). Puppet master is too much valuable but its success depends on chance (if the enemy has magic resistance, shatter skills, or have unicorn in the army). A close battle depends too much on the success of our puppet master spell and the failure of the enemy's.

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Ughduty
Ughduty

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 12:01 PM
Edited by Ughduty at 13:14, 07 Oct 2017.

Original campaign not working

Hi magnomagus,

I have a problem while playing the original Haven campaign. Im using version 5.59b of your mod and starting the game using the file MMH55_64.exe (having Windows 10 64bit and have Win7 compatibility mode activated for the exe, otherwise it always crashes). When I first met a opponent hero on the map "The Siege" playing on hard difficulty, the opponent hero did at no point started to move till the end. When I use the utility 64 bit exe he moves around like one would expect and like it is when plaing the game without the mod. I wonder why this is because you said that the Haven campaign should play fine?

Beside that nice mod.


One other thing, I tried to use your blurry texture fix but unfortunately when I put the dll file in the bin folder and start the game it immediately crashes with the generic message "... Heroes 5.5 has stopped working ...". When using the utility exe of your mod however it is working. In the event viewer is the following entry afterwards:
Faulting application name: MMH55_64.exe, version: 3.0.1.0, time stamp: 0x4ea07667
Faulting module name: unknown, version: 0.0.0.0, time stamp: 0x00000000
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x00000000
Faulting process id: 0x2028
Faulting application start time: 0x01d33f54eca9837e
Faulting application path: C:GamesHeroes of Might and Magic VTribes of the EastbinMMH55_64.exe
Faulting module path: unknown
Report Id: c5957d0b-8b40-4f06-8acf-4421fdb1bf6f
Faulting package full name:
Faulting package-relative application ID:

I'm havin 8GB RAM and using Windows 10 64bit patched to the latest version. Grahics card is a integrated Intel HD4400. Only thing that works for me is limiting the ram usage in Windows to 3GB.

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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 12:17 PM

dredknight said:
Welcome to the community Sleepyfox !

I believe you may be interesting in this article with MMH55 strategies.

[/url]


Read the strategy post and agree with most tips and that Sylvan has the mightest army. Strangely, I still believe druids are better than Rangers to start and win a Sylvan game -- they support the army better (and they benefit dearly from high druids' channeling).

Vingaal is really impressive in TOE especially with the bugged "Unicorn Horn Bow + Treeborn Quiver" set. Ossis is too good but only with bonus shooters at the beginning. Now that HOMM5.5 can start with bonus army, the advantage of choosing Ossis diminishes -- the increased stat on elvish archers are really not decisive in later games. Most druids are better. Ivor is a bug.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted October 07, 2017 12:46 PM

sleepfox said:

Read the strategy post and agree with most tips and that Sylvan has the mightest army. Strangely, I still believe druids are better than Rangers to start and win a Sylvan game -- they support the army better (and they benefit dearly from high druids' channeling).


Channeling is overpowered as hell but we cannot fix it because it is harcodded. Try playing with Druid class without channeling and see the difference .

sleepfox said:

Vingaal is really impressive in TOE especially with the bugged "Unicorn Horn Bow + Treeborn Quiver" set. Ossis is too good but only with bonus shooters at the beginning. Now that HOMM5.5 can start with bonus army, the advantage of choosing Ossis diminishes -- the increased stat on elvish archers are really not decisive in later games. Most druids are better. Ivor is a bug.


Very good points that you make Sleepfox .
You will start seeing even more with the time I can promise you that. A thing I have noticed is that people new to the mod always refer to old tactics - either they are too weak here so they complain, or they say that things have improved as they are not so overpowered anymore.

Some factions (and classes) require very different approach from what you know in ToTe. Here are a few examples that you can try - Dungeon with Overlord or Assassin, Inferno (any class), Stronghold (any class). It is very possible that you fail miserably in PvP game if you try old school ToTe approaches.


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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 12:53 PM

dredknight said:
sleepfox said:

Read the strategy post and agree with most tips and that Sylvan has the mightest army. Strangely, I still believe druids are better than Rangers to start and win a Sylvan game -- they support the army better (and they benefit dearly from high druids' channeling).


Channeling is overpowered as hell but we cannot fix it because it is harcodded. Try playing with Druid class without channeling and see the difference .

sleepfox said:

Vingaal is really impressive in TOE especially with the bugged "Unicorn Horn Bow + Treeborn Quiver" set. Ossis is too good but only with bonus shooters at the beginning. Now that HOMM5.5 can start with bonus army, the advantage of choosing Ossis diminishes -- the increased stat on elvish archers are really not decisive in later games. Most druids are better. Ivor is a bug.


Very good points that you make Sleepfox .
You will start seeing even more with the time I can promise you that. A thing I have noticed is that people new to the mod always refer to old tactics - either they are too weak here so they complain, or they say that things have improved as they are not so overpowered anymore.

Some factions (and classes) require very different approach from what you know in ToTe. Here are a few examples that you can try - Dungeon with Overlord or Assassin, Inferno (any class), Stronghold (any class). It is very possible that you fail miserably in PvP game if you try old school ToTe approaches.




Admit that I am way too impressed with channeling and that might contribute to my impression that the game biased towards magic. Thanks for pointing that out. Cheers.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 07, 2017 01:37 PM

Quote:
When I use the utility 64 bit exe he moves around like one would expect and like it is when plaing the game without the mod. I wonder why this is because you said that the Haven campaign should play fine?


I know 2 instances where this happens, this mission + necro mission 1.
They used loopping scripts that cause too much performance issues (perhaps not on your pc). But it is not necessary for those missions the heroes move.

Quote:
One other thing, I tried to use your blurry texture fix but unfortunately when I put the dll file in the bin folder and start the game it immediately crashes with the generic message "... Heroes 5.5 has stopped working ...".


Since you are the only one reporting this, I think there is something with your drivers or directx software this file doesn't like. I have no clue what since I didn't make this dll.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 07, 2017 01:49 PM

Quote:
Channeling is overpowered as hell but we cannot fix it because it is harcodded. Try playing with Druid class without channeling and see the difference


Actually no, in RC9b, in my duel tests Direal+channeling gets completely obliterated by any might class.

The real issue is much more complex. Magic classes need both a lot of nerfs early and a lot of buffs later to balance it all out.

Current issues worked on:

-Lots of spells are too cheap
-Lots of spells don't scale enough (must be stronger very late)
-Light magic is too weak later
-slow is overpowered
-White unicorns are overpowered
-Occultism SP boosts must be delayed (but get stronger very late)
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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 02:32 PM
Edited by sleepfox at 14:34, 07 Oct 2017.

I still remember the days I played HOMM3 (Also mostly against AI though). Pick Haven, at the early stage (first 2กซ3 weeks), combine the troops from two starting heroes and town, fight the neutral army (sacrifice these low-tier armies when necessary), and get resources as as to build level 7 dwelling and to recruit archangel. In the middle stage, bring the archangels and conquer. In late stage, get master level earth/light magic, use dimension door and town portal to travel fast across the map and wrap up the game. This was very effective strategy, and boring. There were only two creatures, archangel and others (only archangel has unique and valuable ability). The game is not balanced. Most fun came from lots and lots of different maps.  

In HOMM5 especially the 5.5 mod, every battle come to life! Every creature has its own unique ability and can be decisive at some point of the battle, and the battles are dynamic with new definition of turn. I tend to believe that armies dominate the battle while heroes merely provide support/boost to armies, or play some tricks like puppet master on enemy stacks which might turn the battle to the other direction. I suspect that spell/non-spell direct attack from hero is not as valuable as supporting skills. One miscalculation could cost you dearly. With severe loss, you lose the momentum built. (Every opponent has a very strong army) Depending too much on luck, you might end up reloading the game and restarting the battle. I suppose that has been why I favor summoning and light (and dark at later stage, but I almost always use blind / puppet master only). Not because they are better directly compared to other skills, but they can carry you through the game more smoothly.

Light magic might not be as powerful at late stages. However, when boosted by channeling, a resurrection spell could easily bring more than 150 tier3 creatures back to life, a regeneration spell can heal/resurrect 600% or even more top-tier creatures. As for summoning, with channeling, a phoenix summoned can have HP of 3000~4000 or more and you can still throw a regeneration on it.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted October 07, 2017 03:10 PM
Edited by dredknight at 15:14, 07 Oct 2017.

Magno,

I am not sure about the  channeling as I  have seen Druids with ~100 spellpower. They can still lose late game this is true but it is because Light magic does not stack well not the other way around.

I have had some ideas a long time ago before MMH55 about the perfect balance. I would mix them with what is already done and propose a few things though I do not know if it is possible to adjust with scripts.

I take this as base:
Both players have one castle for the whole game, heroes of different classes (might vs magic) and they both develop (building, grinding and leveling up) with equal pace.
Heroes get X army per week. Where at week 8 his army will be 8*X [ this is purely abstract, I am aware that early game players do not have all 7 tiers and magic should be way weaker ] enforced by a multiplier incorporating all army bonuses where for the might hero it will be stronger one but the for the magic it will be weaker one. Thus the magic hero will compensate with spells.


With the above knowledge in mind - at any time of the game both players should be somehow equal in strength anytime between months 1-10.

Because both players' gains are absolutely the same the only possible solution is to make spellpower and knowledge stack in such way that they compensate the additional might hero boost. Lets say this is something you have already done (including the latest changes where spells will stack better late game and knowledge gives more army to the hero because of artifacts and some perks in magic department).


So far so good.

But what happens when second castle of the same faction is introduced to both players (same goes with adding more dwellings)? Both armies are doubled but magic hero strength remains more or less the same while Might hero advantage is doubled (or more than doubled because more army > more damage > faster battle pace).

So the question is how to reward the magic hero for owning more castles?

One way is to try to reverse engineer the answer starting from what does magic hero needs to win the battle?
On a very abstract level the hero success depends on the time he has to cast his spells and win the battle before his troops perish. So more or less Magic heroes play defensively and try to maneuver their army (and use their spells) in a way that cripples might hero army damage is possibly the lowest every round.

However the need for time is reduced with the increase in spellpower.
For example a 100 spellpower Meteor Shower can end the battle in one round on week 4 no matter what skills the opponent has.

So one possible answer is to find a way to give bonus spellpower to each magic hero the more castles they own but here we meet another problem - if both players have 2 castles the magic hero will get his bonus right away while the might hero has to build the castle to get the army.

Looking it in abstraction this means that the magic hero gets bonus for just capturing a second castle while might hero is disadvantaged by time and economy factors.

So lets give the same penalty to the magic hero. Make the bonus connected with resources by asking him to build the mage guild. I am not sure how the balance will be here but you can give small bonuses for each level or just a big one when he gets to level 5. This has to be played around very carefully as the Magic hero also needs to build creature buildings too in the second castle.

So the real question is can you give bonuses to the Magic class heroes for each magic guild level build in each new castle after the first one? Also those bonuses should be removed if any of the castles are conquered by foreign players.

Another idea that came to my mind is to give bonus per new castle per month. Disregard the values but what if each Magic guild level 5 gives 1 spellpower per magic hero per month for example?

Forgive me for the long post but I felt it could be misunderstood without the background info.


P.S.
This would create some additional strategic situations where the magic heroes can play for a lot of castles without army just to be very strong. On the other hand players with might heroes will try to cut the spellpower by stealing castles thus secondary heroes with army will be even more useful throughout the game!

Also I do not have an idea how the bonus spellpower can be balanced because what if a player has 8 magic heroes. Do all benefit from those bonuses?

Also looking at "Channeling" I cannot understand how this ability fits the unit because based on the 1-castle-per-player architecture it seriously boost the magic hero where the unit continues also to do damage. It is a win-win situation that is too good compared to other units and their abilities. Take as an example the succubus seducer - great ability but for the sake of the Succubi actions.

P.S.S

Can someone verify if this is true about "Channeling"? This kind of balances things a bit if it works that way.

Quote:
This creature can increase the hero's Spell Power by its own Spell Power value, but not greater than the hero's Knowledge.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 07, 2017 03:38 PM

@sleepfox: thanks for your support

@dredknight: I think you are highly exaggerating a lot here, if a magic hero has double the army it also has double the amount of time to cast spells, also it is not like magic heroes don't have any might. i played a testing game just yesterday with a necromancer, my stats at week 2 month 3: 19A, 18D, 34S, 18K

meteor show with 100SP week 4? dream on

channeling works as you quoted and in PvP battles, the druid will often be able to cast only ONE spell with it because after channeling all attention moves to the druids, so before the 2nd spell the druids stack is already dead.
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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted October 07, 2017 03:57 PM

magnomagus said:

@dredknight: I think you are highly exaggerating a lot here, if a magic hero has double the army it also has double the amount of time to cast spells, also it is not like magic heroes don't have any might. i played a testing game just yesterday with a necromancer, my stats at week 2 month 3: 19A, 18D, 34S, 18K

channeling works as you quoted and in PvP battles, the druid will often be able to cast only ONE spell with it because after channeling all attention moves to the druids, so before the 2nd spell the druids stack is already dead.


magnomagus said:

meteor show with 100SP week 4? dream on


Everything is exaggeration in my post sure I know that magic heroes can rely on their army as well. I also did not put inside the bonus for creatures and economy based on the knowledge strength which is advantage for the mages. Simply I wanted to say that if spells are getting behind with time (6+ months) it can be because they do not stack as they power fades due to the enormous quantity of the army so some SP boost based on magic guilds could be implemented.

Another thing that this small bonus improves is that same faction magic guilds are not necessary to be built after castle number 2 because hero learns most of the spells with 2 magic guilds + map bonus spells from buildings and sites.

If you already have better idea do it just decided to throw in what was on my mind.

Druids are instantly killed in PvP because of channeling, this happened in all my PvP games there is no doubt in that but what about PvE isn't that bonus too much?
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 07, 2017 05:04 PM
Edited by Nargott at 17:10, 07 Oct 2017.

dredknight said:
But what happens when second castle of the same faction is introduced to both players

Try to avoid it if possible (<= 8 towns), the most interesting thing is different faction's towns because giving different armies and/or mixes.

Do you test chanelling to Wizard with 45% knowledge?

Quote:
This creature can increase the hero's Spell Power by its own Spell Power value, but not greater than the hero's Knowledge.

This is true, Spellpower bonus = min (Spellpower of Druids, Knowledge of the Hero).

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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 05:42 PM

Agree that a might hero has (much) better defense and attack which is permanent boost on his army stacks; while a magic hero has to cast a spell to boost his army, the spell can last but can be voided and takes a turn. And thus on paper a might hero could be better at late stage.

However, a magic hero may be able to clear the map much faster and gain bonus stat and resources, including attack and defense, much faster from orc tunnels / demon cages etc. For example, in one huge map "H55-5P-Ultima", one of the very great huge-sized maps with lots of H55 dwellings and adventure spots (more of these kind of maps please), I was able to KO three opponents and capture all three towns of the last opponent and eliminate his strongest army on day 5, week 2, month 4. The game difficulty level was impossible and I enable the option that the AI can recruit at a discount for 3 months. I need just another few days to finish the game. I was using Ivor but I let him develop summoning/light magic as priority. His stat was 21, 25, 39, 31 on this day at level 35 (with some good artifacts); and 14, 22, 26, 24 without any artifact. He was expert on defense, luck, enlightenment, summoning, light, offense, logistics and leadership. He does not need any shatter skills that is why he is a bug. Dark/Destructive spells fail or work miserably on his army. I am sure that I can still finish the game within 4 months with most Druids. I tried but it was much harder to start and win with rangers.

Playing against human could be very different though.

Anyhow, I quite enjoy your mod. and look forward to playing the new version. Cheers and thanks a lot for the great work.    

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 07, 2017 06:04 PM

I agree Ivor is overpowered, stacking up with the unicorn resistance.

Quote:
I enable the option that the AI can recruit at a discount for 3 months


This doesn't do very much, if you really want to crank up the difficulty, you have to modify the settings in MMH55-Settings.pak file as described in moddb tutorial "customizing town management".
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 07, 2017 06:15 PM

Quote:
For example, in one huge map "H55-5P-Ultima", one of the very great huge-sized maps with lots of H55 dwellings and adventure spots (more of these kind of maps please)


Ok I see now you probably missed something important, these maps are random generated ,you can make billions of them yourself, read ARMG manual (shortcut)
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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 07, 2017 06:22 PM

magnomagus said:
Quote:
For example, in one huge map "H55-5P-Ultima", one of the very great huge-sized maps with lots of H55 dwellings and adventure spots (more of these kind of maps please)


Ok I see now you probably missed something important, these maps are random generated ,you can make billions of them yourself, read ARMG manual (shortcut)


Thanks. Will look into ARMG later.

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