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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 418 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 296 297 298 299 300 ... 350 400 418 · «PREV / NEXT»
StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 07, 2017 11:05 PM

dredknight said:
Actually we did miscalculate a few things and in RC9b slow is overpowered (in comparison to haste) which will be fixed in the next release. Mid-late game dark is very potent when it comes to


I haven't really seen a need to cast haste or slow in Homm 5.  Both seem weak compared to other versions of Homm where I cast haste or slow every combat.  I was just playing a game and cast slow and didn't move them back on attack bar at all.  

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 07, 2017 11:14 PM

Since the next release is going to be a tryout of enhanced tactics, there is one more thing I like to discuss: Speed

I think in TOE there is a little too much of it.

The battlefield are quite small in h5 and it is not possible to make them bigger, but the issue can still be improved by making units move less tiles.

In KB The legend for example the battlefield is also small in tiles, but since units move less it feels bigger and tactical movement is more important.

There are lots of units in h5 that can walk to the other side, makes you wonder what all those speed boosts and tactics perks are even good for.

So in order to improve it without making any significant changes I was thinking the following:

Haven T7 8>7
Sylvan T7 9>8
Academy T5 8>7 Ksatri 7>6
Dungeon T5 8>7 T7 9>8
Inferno T3 8>7
Necropolis V Prince 8>7
Fortress T6 8>7
Stronghold - no changes, only t5 can make 8 after rage level 1


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 08, 2017 12:05 AM

Sounds good though it'd be a pity if cerberi and dino riders could not charge. Otherwise, haven and fortress are pretty strong with angels and thanes being able to reach the opponent on first turn, esp in lategame.
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azalen
azalen


Responsible
Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 06:21 AM

Dryads -1 speed, Unicorns -1 Speed, Wind Dancers -1 Speed.

Feeling some Sylvan hate right about now

Definitely Dryads though....


magnomagus said:
Since the next release is going to be a tryout of enhanced tactics, there is one more thing I like to discuss: Speed

I think in TOE there is a little too much of it.

The battlefield are quite small in h5 and it is not possible to make them bigger, but the issue can still be improved by making units move less tiles.

In KB The legend for example the battlefield is also small in tiles, but since units move less it feels bigger and tactical movement is more important.

There are lots of units in h5 that can walk to the other side, makes you wonder what all those speed boosts and tactics perks are even good for.

So in order to improve it without making any significant changes I was thinking the following:

Haven T7 8>7
Sylvan T7 9>8
Academy T5 8>7 Ksatri 7>6
Dungeon T5 8>7 T7 9>8
Inferno T3 8>7
Necropolis V Prince 8>7
Fortress T6 8>7
Stronghold - no changes, only t5 can make 8 after rage level 1



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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 07:20 AM
Edited by Nargott at 08:03, 08 Oct 2017.

Speed is very good theme for improvement of combat, it was the first thing I change in my WGE mod.

There were such concept in WGE:
1) basic speed is 3-5
2) if a creature is big, get +1 (4-6)
3) if a creature is flyer, get +2 (5-7 or 6-8)

I have many years of practice this idea and think that it works very good. But in WGE slow units (with speed of 3-4) are strong and main power, not weak and useless like most of zombie-type units in classic game.

So this is a classical way, because in Heroes 1-4 only flyers can move to opponent on the first turn (with exception of imba tactics or haste in Heroes 3). In Heroes 1-2 flyers can move to anywhere (speed is unlimited), in Heroes 3 flyers have double speed, and in Heroes 4 flyers have speed always greater than non-flyers (with the only exception of a genie which is a spellcaster).

More conservative variant is:
Get all TotE creatures -1 speed or get all non-flyers -1 speed.

Quote:
Haven T7 8>7
Sylvan T7 9>8
Academy T5 8>7 Ksatri 7>6
Dungeon T5 8>7 T7 9>8
Inferno T3 8>7
Necropolis V Prince 8>7
Fortress T6 8>7
Stronghold - no changes, only t5 can make 8 after rage level 1

If you want to have more local change, then additionally:

Haven T6 8>7 (because knights are non-flyers so must be slower than flyers)
Sylvan ok
Academy ok
Dungeon ok (T4 riders?) but +T2 8>7
Inferno ok but +T5 8>7 and T2 leap range is 3-7 (not 3-8)
Necropolis ok
Fortress ok
Stronghold ok (but T3 is unpleasant having basic 5 plus 2 for rage 1, plus 1-2 for war cry, plus 1 for aura, plus 1 for artifact, so speed bonuses for rage 1 and for war cry better to remove).

Also you may change bonus for Aura of Swiftness from +1 speed to +1 initiative.

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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 08, 2017 07:51 AM
Edited by sleepfox at 07:54, 08 Oct 2017.

azalen said:
Dryads -1 speed, Unicorns -1 Speed, Wind Dancers -1 Speed.

Feeling some Sylvan hate right about now

Definitely Dryads though....




No really. Elvish archers and druids are now even stronger if speed is decreased for most creatures. Especially with unicorn horn bow.  

If speed is going to be decreased, maybe it is a good idea to let tactics to be able to form the army 2 lines (instead of 1) forward.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 07:57 AM

sleepfox said:
No really. Elvish archers and druids are now even stronger if speed is decreased for most creatures. Especially with unicorn horn bow.  

If speed is going to be decreased, maybe it is a good idea to let tactics to be able to form the army 2 lines (instead of 1) forward.


Yes, global lower speed means that you must do weaker damage of shooters.
Changing Tactics is not real and is toxic (I remember horrible tactics in Heroes 3).

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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 08, 2017 08:32 AM

sleepfox said:


No really. Elvish archers and druids are now even stronger if speed is decreased for most creatures. Especially with unicorn horn bow.  

If speed is going to be decreased, maybe it is a good idea to let tactics to be able to form the army 2 lines (instead of 1) forward.



I was thinking same thing.  If speed is reduced then ranged are gonna be that much more powerful.  Even though I don't like when Nightmares gallop across map and destroy a stack on mine it's probably more balanced then being able to destroy alot of them before they can get to me.  Would be kind of a nerf to Dragon types too which I think are pretty under powered in this game

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted October 08, 2017 08:44 AM
Edited by dredknight at 08:46, 08 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:

So in order to improve it without making any significant changes I was thinking the following:

Haven T7 8>7
Sylvan T7 9>8
Academy T5 8>7 Ksatri 7>6
Dungeon T5 8>7 T7 9>8
Inferno T3 8>7
Necropolis V Prince 8>7
Fortress T6 8>7
Stronghold - no changes, only t5 can make 8 after rage level 1




I agree with all. Somehow I cannot accept inferno T3 change but if you do not touch nightmares I am kind of alright.

Also have in mind that the alternative upgrade of cerberi was already nerfed from 8 to 7 for the sake of more HP. You may want to decrease its speed to 6 just to make it fit the new scheme.
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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 08, 2017 09:09 AM
Edited by sleepfox at 09:46, 08 Oct 2017.

StrikerX said:
sleepfox said:


No really. Elvish archers and druids are now even stronger if speed is decreased for most creatures. Especially with unicorn horn bow.  

If speed is going to be decreased, maybe it is a good idea to let tactics to be able to form the army 2 lines (instead of 1) forward.



I was thinking same thing.  If speed is reduced then ranged are gonna be that much more powerful.  Even though I don't like when Nightmares gallop across map and destroy a stack on mine it's probably more balanced then being able to destroy alot of them before they can get to me.  Would be kind of a nerf to Dragon types too which I think are pretty under powered in this game


When playing Sylvan against AI, one can preserve almost all the shooters throughout the game, with the help of summoning and light. Unicorns provide magical resistance and treants block the battle field. Treants taking root, empowered by luck and "stand your ground" and "regeneration", is among the most ridiculous scenes in the battle. Even more so when shooters hide behind. You really don't need Sylvan tier7 - they perish too quick; it is much more efficient and effective to spend all the money to build up shooter, unicorn and treant stacks.

By the way, in earlier HOMM games, a hero cannot move too far during a day if there are slow creature in the army. In HOMM5, there doesn't seem to be such penalty. Maybe this can be put back to the game?  


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 09:25 AM

sleepfox said:
By the way, in earlier HOMM games, a hero cannot move too far during a day if there are slow creature in the army. In HOMM5, there doesn't seem to be such penalty. Maybe this can be put back to the game?

Bad idea because abusing support heroes getting slow creatures at end of day and returning them to army at the start of next day.

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sleepfox
sleepfox

Tavern Dweller
posted October 08, 2017 09:28 AM

Nargott said:
sleepfox said:
By the way, in earlier HOMM games, a hero cannot move too far during a day if there are slow creature in the army. In HOMM5, there doesn't seem to be such penalty. Maybe this can be put back to the game?

Bad idea because abusing support heroes getting slow creatures at end of day and returning them to army at the start of next day.


Very true. Unless like in HOMM4. But that would be hard to mod I guess.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 09:43 AM
Edited by Nargott at 09:53, 08 Oct 2017.

sleepfox said:
Very true. Unless like in HOMM4. But that would be hard to mod I guess.

H4 system is bad also, because players spent more time to separate/run/dismission with many "one peasant" armies each turn. That's why H4 is game with very poor dynamics in terms of time needed per one game day.

But there is one fundamental improvement in H4 - is ban transfering the army through the chain. This idea can be implemented in MMH5.5 by scripts if the authors want. I mean the system where if 2 heroes meet and transfer army, so their movement will set to the minimal remaining movement of them. But this game will be more multi-armies oriented and need to have weeker guards (because it is difficult to support one super-army to defeat them).

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 08, 2017 10:40 AM

@magno, I support the speed reduction idea especially for some creatures but balance will need to be thought through with the changes. Tough job to get it right.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 08, 2017 11:23 AM

Since I found the idea of WGE mod interesting(and had actually wanted to try a speed reduction for some time now), I made a mod version with speed ranging between 4-6 and have had a number of games in it. Personally, I quite enjoy the change of pace and it certainly gives some breathing space to factions like academy that could at times face 2-3 enemy melee/flyer units attacking them in the first turn. Unit placement and movement becomes a lot more strategic and it no longer makes a difference whether a specific enemy unit is placed on the left or the right since you won't be able to reach it on first turn anyway.

I should mention two things though:

- I do not necessarily believe that it is wrong to reach the opponent on the first turn. But we should avoid cases like sylvan being able to charge with all units(except treants) with tactics and aura of swiftness. Such a charge may not phaze a might haven but it could give a lot of trouble to a magic dungeon or academy. It places a lot of pressure on them, especially in lategame. I think a faction should be able to reach the enemy with 2 unit stacks at the very most.

- Obviously, 4-6 speed is restrictive and radically changes the H5 gameplay we know and love. So magno's decision to only reduce the speed of certain units by 1 is sound. But it is worth checking out in a separate mod if only to see how it plays out. What I had in mind was:

* 6 speed for fliers, elvish units, hounds or horses.
* 5 speed for somewhat fast or large walkers.
* 4 speed for regular melee or ranged units.
* 3 speed for slow shooters like liches and dwarven priests.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 11:36 AM
Edited by Nargott at 11:43, 08 Oct 2017.

+1 to opinion of Elvin, but if all flyers will have the same speed it will be a little monotonous that's why I did not limit the speed of the flyers. But in WGE flyers are weak at melee and can't rush by yourself without supporting of footmen. In TotE and MMH5.5 flyers are top and strongest units so they may not need to have a speed of more than 6.

And I don't understand why are you ignoring speed of 3 for some melee creatures (slow), this is very interesting and skillful tactical speed, more interesting than running through all battlefield for the one move.
Speed 3 is analogue of speed 4-5 in Heroes 3, but speed 4 is analogue of speed 6.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 12:54 PM

The stronger shooter issue is already dealt with if A&D dmg boost goes to 0.25%.

For treants & hydras I'm also thinking -1 speed +1 initiative (basically  maintaining a minimum initiative of 8 for all creatures)

While flyers being the fastest is very logical, it has the unpleasant effect of significantly modifying how factions play.

For example in haven and inferno people are really used to having paladins & nightmares charging and having t7 as support units, if you change this charging is suddenly only available late game.

It also makes resurrection and summon pit lords less valuable since they are supposed to be used later in battle after the charges.

@Nargott: changing aura of swiftness to initiative is not possible in 31j.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2017 01:16 PM
Edited by Nargott at 13:20, 08 Oct 2017.

7 speed is enough for charge, because you may have tactics, artifact of +1 speed or aura of swiftness.
7 is sub-rushing speed, player can easy turn it to 8 or even 9 in some cases.

Quote:
The stronger shooter issue is already dealt with if A&D dmg boost goes to 0.25%.

You look only to PvE shooters, but not EvP (which are much stronger) and PvP shooters.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 08, 2017 01:43 PM

Nargott said:
+1 to opinion of Elvin, but if all flyers will have the same speed it will be a little monotonous [...]

Maybe but the initiative would still differ. Ofc in such a setting an initiative boost might be warranted to compensate for the lack of speed, ie 12 init for archangels. Even so, it remains quite different from the 14 initiative emeralds.

Nargott said:
And I don't understand why are you ignoring speed of 3 for some melee creatures (slow), this is very interesting and skillful tactical speed, more interesting than running through all battlefield for the one move.

3 speed for melee might be warranted for some extreme cases like zombies but.. it just feels too slow - especially considering they'd get 2 speed on diagonals. For now I'm reserving it for the leapers since their jump would have to be restricted at 6 tiles.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 08, 2017 01:48 PM

Quote:
You look only to PvE shooters, but not EvP (which are much stronger) and PvP shooters.


No I don't,

EvP shooters are mostly standing in back row so 7 or 8 doesn't even matter.
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