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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 02:10 AM |
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About "melee preference" I have the same way in WGE but only to the red monks and using combo with "no range penalty", which make more difference from assassins.
So if you will use this combo, it means that unit have poor short-ranged damage (because of shoots with halfing strength), normal long-ranged damage (because of no range penalty) and good melee damage (because of no melee penalty).
At the long range is better to shot, but at the short range is better to strike.
Using the same combination in MMH5.5 is not necessary, but I wanted to share an idea.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 03:16 AM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 03:45, 16 Oct 2017.
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That's actually a good point.
"Melee Preference" (old "Range Penalty") without "No Range Penalty" means that the creature makes 1/4 the normal damage in long range (more than half the arena).
@magno, I don't know if you considered this for Haven T5.
EDIT: To be specific...
Shooter:
Half damage in melee, Normal damage in short range, half damage in long range.
Shooter+NoMeleePenalty:
Normal damage in melee, Normal damage in short range, half damage in long range.
Shooter+NoMeleePenalty+MeleePref:
Normal damage in melee, Half damage in short range, quarter damage in long range.
Shooter+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, quarter damage in long range.
Shooter+NoMeleePenalty+NoRangePenalty:
Normal damage in melee, Normal damage in short range, Normal damage in long range.
Shooter+NoMeleePenalty+NoRangePenalty+MeleePref:
Normal damage in melee, Half damage in short range, Half damage in long range.
Shooter+NoRangePenalty+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, Half damage in long range.
Shooter+NoRangePenalty:
Half damage in melee, Normal damage in short range, Normal damage in long range.
Yes, I'm sure.
Pick accordingly 
EDIT: To complete it with the (upgraded) Cyclops...
GoblinThrower = Shooter(with neighboring goblin stack as #shots)+NoMeleePenalty
So, since (upgraded) Cyclops have GoblinThrower+MeleePref, they actually have Shooter+NoMeleePenalty+MeleePref = Normal damage in melee, Half damage in short range, quarter damage in long range.
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sol7721
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 16, 2017 03:57 AM |
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@magno
It looks like I'll just have to deal. disabling the H55 scripts did not fix the issue.
In other technical news, I found an odd potential issue with the RNG maps generator.
I used a hero with scouting to look at a neutral "army". It was undead and the creature count was this : lich 5 Vampire 4 Ghost 3 and Zombie 1
now I'm wondering, isn't that backwards? This count is taken on day 6 of the first month of game play (shouldn't the stack have grown?).
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 16, 2017 08:42 AM |
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Great article @Magno! There are 2 points I want to add.
1. As primary attributes power is lower you can increase class starting skills to a more than 5-point-primary-skill distribution to make them more diverse. Also I bet some magic heroes that start with higher tier spell will require higher mana pool to be able to cast it.
2. What do you think about "Confusion" specialization ? Considering the advantages and disadvantages listed below level 50 specialization looks unflattering compared to others.
+ mass version will suck mana from all creatures.
- weaker effect
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Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 09:51 AM |
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thGryphn said:
Shooter+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, quarter damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty
Quote:
Shooter+NoRangePenalty+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, Half damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty + No range penalty
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 09:58 AM |
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Nargott said:
thGryphn said:
Shooter+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, quarter damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty
Quote:
Shooter+NoRangePenalty+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, Half damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty + No range penalty
No.
"Melee Preference" alone does not give "No Melee Penalty".
Go ahead and test it. I did.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 10:35 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 10:47, 16 Oct 2017.
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thGryphn said:
Nargott said:
thGryphn said:
Shooter+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, quarter damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty
Quote:
Shooter+NoRangePenalty+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, Half damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty + No range penalty
No.
"Melee Preference" alone does not give "No Melee Penalty".
Go ahead and test it. I did.
Does not, of cause.
But 50% damage in melee, short range and 25% damage in long range =
50% x (100% damage in melee, short range and 50% damage in long range) = 50% damage + No melee penalty
50% damage means that simply decrease basic damage 2 times (it is not ability).
That's why the options where 100% damage is never applied are meaningless.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 10:52 AM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 10:56, 16 Oct 2017.
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Nargott said:
thGryphn said:
Nargott said:
thGryphn said:
Shooter+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, quarter damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty
Quote:
Shooter+NoRangePenalty+MeleePref:
Half damage in melee, Half damage in short range, Half damage in long range.
=50% damage + No melee penalty + No range penalty
No.
"Melee Preference" alone does not give "No Melee Penalty".
Go ahead and test it. I did.
Does not, of cause.
But 50% damage in melee, short range and 25% damage in long range =
50% x (100% damage in melee, short range and 50% damage in long range) = 50% damage + No melee penalty
50% damage means that simply decrease basic damage 2 times (it is not ability).
That's why the options where 100% damage is never applied are meaningless.
Well, I see what you meant now but you need to work on vagueness of your posts, lol.
I didn't say they're meaningful. I just put the whole picture of what happens when you combine those creature abilities.
EDIT: The only other relevant ability is "precise shot". I didn't include it because I didn't test it. I can speculate but it would be interesting to test...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 16, 2017 11:39 AM |
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If I use melee preference + no range penalty, there is no scenario possible where I significantly boost the melee attack, without also significantly boosting the long range attack.
@dredknight:
1. true, but need to evaluate how much work
2. I already gave them knowledge bonus.
Quote:
So, for example your hero have +20 attack and +30 initial difference, total to +50 difference (at 2.5% stats is 225% damage). So +8 attack is 58 difference = 245% damage, which is only 245/225 = +9% DMG in this case.
I have some doubts about your method, if you apply the same logic to initiative you get the same result, so if a creature already has +30% ini and gets +10% ini, it will be an increase of 140/130 = +7.6%
So why do I care comparing 10% vs 10% or 7.6% vs 7.6%?
Quote:
It looks like I'll just have to deal. disabling the H55 scripts did not fix the issue.
At least it is good news for me, but leaves me with no clue.
Quote:
I used a hero with scouting to look at a neutral "army". It was undead and the creature count was this : lich 5 Vampire 4 Ghost 3 and Zombie 1
now I'm wondering, isn't that backwards? This count is taken on day 6 of the first month of game play (shouldn't the stack have grown?).
The RMG doesn't necessarily make the strongest tier the lowest number, if that is what you mean?
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 11:50 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 12:35, 16 Oct 2017.
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magnomagus said:
If I use melee preference + no range penalty, there is no scenario possible where I significantly boost the melee attack, without also significantly boosting the long range attack.
Double strike.
But it is meaningless because "no range penalty" is about normal long-range damage.
So if you want to have only melee normal damage without long-range, like cyclpos, it is not needed.
Quote:
I have some doubts about your method, if you apply the same logic to initiative you get the same result, so if a creature already has +30% ini and gets +10% ini, it will be an increase of 140/130 = +7.6%
So why do I care comparing 10% vs 10% or 7.6% vs 7.6%?
Bonuses to initiative are rare factor (artifact dependent) and you can easy avoid it by choosing other atrifacts, but non-zero difference A&D is very common, in every combat, and you can't avoid it.
This is correct model because when you give bonuses to natural damage (for example, 4-6 damage +1 for battle frenzy = +20% damage; or +3 luck to +20% damage; or expert offense to +20% damage) it works the same way (as multiplier to current damage). And the most effects are multiplier to current (or near to it), that's why "multiplier current" model is objective standard metric.
How to reduce the value of the initiative in this approach, this is another matter, but much lesser reducing than A&D, of cause.
And I haven't test about how works bonuses of ini specialization + ini artifacts, maybe they are multiply already, not sum?
EDIT:
For example, how many costs +20% offense/archery by attack stat?
If the difference is ~20 (150% damage), x1.2 multipluer means 180% damage or (150% + 30%) or +12 to 2.5% attack.
If you estimate this only at +8 of 2.5% stats (=the same +20% formally), you get 170% damage only (compared with 180% by skill).
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 01:36 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 13:51, 16 Oct 2017.
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Interesting variants with shooters:
(I put bold to all ideas that are new for your game, most of them used in WGE mod)
1) Shooter = standard (50/100/50% melee/short/long)
No Melee Penalty:
2) Shooter + No Melee Penalty (100/100/50%) is Monk
Shooter + Half-Shoots (50/50/25%) is meaningless
3) Shooter + No Melee Penalty + Half-Shoots (100/50/25%) is Scout
No Range Penalty:
4) Shooter + No Range Penalty (50/100/100%) is blue elf
5) Shooter + No Range Penalty + No Melee Penalty (100/100/100%) is Titan (by Lightning)
Shooter + No Range Penalty + Half-Shoots (50/50/50%) is meaningless
6) Shooter + No Range Penalty + Half-Shoots + No Melee Penalty (100/50/50%) is red monk (WGE)
Double Shot:
7) Shooter + Double Shot (50/200/100%) is elf
any combo Shooter + Double Shot + No Melee Penalty (100/200/100%) is meaningless
any combo with Shooter + Double Shot + Half-Shoots (50/100/50%) is meaningless
8) Shooter + No Range Penalty + Double Shot (50/200/200%) has no units
Double Strike:
Looks like "almost" No Melee Penalty and (Double Strike + No Melee Penalty) looks like "almost" No Melee Penalty + Half-Shoots
No Retaliation:
Weak ability for shooter, but:
9) Shooter + No Melee Penalty + No Retaliation (100/100/50%) is interesting subvariant of melee shooters (is Centaurs Marauders in WGE)
Fierce Retaliation:
Weak No Melee Penalty subvariation for shooter, but there are 2 special cases:
10) Shooting + Fierce Retaliation + Ranged Retaliation = ranged enforced retaliaton (is alt. Succubus in WGE)
11) Shooting + Fierce Retaliation + Maneurer = 100% short-range shoot retaliation (is Centaur in WGE)
Incineration (special No Melee Penalty + No Retaliation subvariation, if forcing Incineration from 150% to 200% damage):
12) Shooter + Incineration (100/100/50%) is interesting subvariant of melee shooters (is Fire Elemental in WGE)
Effects:
13) Shooter + Fear (can fear by shoots and strikes) is Succubus (WGE)
14) Shooter + Bash (can bash by shoots and strikes) is Scout (WGE)
15) Shooter + Blind (can blind by shoots and strikes) is Shadow Witch (WGE)
16) Shooter + Torpor (can torpor by shoots and strikes) is alt. Rune Priest (WGE)
17) Shooter + Hexing Attack (can debuff by shoots and strikes) is Lich (WGE)
There are subvariants of: Cursing Attack, Sorrow Strike and Evil-Eye debuff (have no units), Evil-Eye is interesting because can deal multiple targers (any area we wish)
18) Shooter + Cleave (double strike + double shot in most cases) is Centaur Nomad (WGE)
19) Shooter + Wound is Skirmisher
20) Shooter + Poison is Assassin
21) Shooter + Assault (can assault by shoots and strikes) is Archer (WGE)
Area attacks:
22) Shooter + Crossfire = Rune Patriarch
23) Shooter + Death Cloud = Lich
But we can use any areas, for example:
24) Shooter + Diagonal Fire (X area for shoots only) = Gremlin (WGE)
25) Shooter + Lightning Breathe or Storm Strike (work at shoots and strikes) = Shadow Matriarch (WGE)
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 01:50 PM |
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ur wge dead and u want do some of this here?_)
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 01:53 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 14:45, 16 Oct 2017.
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I'm active in many interesting mods themes, this does not interfere with the development of my project.
WGE is Russian-language only and not actual for English-language community yet.
I think that the exchange of ideas is good.
I do not care, there will be some ideas implemented in MMH5.5, or not, I just share experiences simply because can it.
EDIT: There are many players who don't want to play more than 2 months per game. I'm such a player who don't want to play more than 1 month per game. This is very principled difference between having 50-100 dragons and having 1-3 dragons in army. This is very principled difference between having 2.5% stats and having 10% stats (like in HoMM2 or WGE). Any PvE-oriented game has very principled difference from PvP-oriented. So the community of both these projects is so different that it is meaningless to look for competition here, but some ideas/things can work well both of them.
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sol7721
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 16, 2017 02:32 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
The RMG doesn't necessarily make the strongest tier the lowest number, if that is what you mean?
Sort of, however I'm noticing this effect in multiple armies. The example I gave was just a sample of what's been happening. the majority of the armies on the map seem to turn out this way from what I've seen, so long as they are tiered like the example I gave.
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 02:35 PM |
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can u show in h5.5 manual magi talismans and their bonuses from knowledge???
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 16, 2017 02:46 PM |
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ea0o said:
can u show in h5.5 manual magi talismans and their bonuses from knowledge???
What is Magi talismans? Is this the stronghold amulet that gives adventure map spells?
P.S.
Magno, on FB people are really loving the changes some of them are even gearing up for the beta already xD!
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 02:52 PM |
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Do you support competition enough? How about to organize some tournaments at MMH5.5? I think it's very good time for tournament when release, especially tournament with streamers.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 16, 2017 02:57 PM |
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Quote:
Sort of, however I'm noticing this effect in multiple armies. The example I gave was just a sample of what's been happening. the majority of the armies on the map seem to turn out this way from what I've seen, so long as they are tiered like the example I gave.
was this after chnaging neutrals with Mapmixer?
Also you seem to set amounts very low, I never have had issues with RMG neutrals.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 03:20 PM |
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dredknight said:
ea0o said:
can u show in h5.5 manual magi talismans and their bonuses from knowledge???
What is Magi talismans? Is this the stronghold amulet that gives adventure map spells?
Academy talismans crafting spec.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 16, 2017 06:32 PM |
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@ea0o,
Oh.. I forgot about them  . Sure I will find a way to add them in the wheel.
@Nargott,
I have made a H55 group so people can find an opponent but setting the environment and helping here and there with the setup is the most I can do at the moment.
However if you want to start organizing such thing give it a go I will anticipate as just as much as I do Starcraft ASL league  !
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