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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 06:36 PM |
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dunno where nargot get his cosmic values/
but +- ini specs must be nerfed hard.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 06:40 PM |
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magnomagus said:
Allright, I think in future I want to move staff of netherworld effect to ultimate item, but this will not happen in next release yet.
Staff of -20% ini works as ~+25% ini at PvP (1/0.8 = 1.25).
And +25% ini both army and hero against PvE troops.
In your game PvE have giant value, so -ini is much stronger than +ini. I think that in PvE -20% ini is 2 times stronger than +20% ini, and in PvP 1.25 times stronger.
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 06:42 PM |
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 06:48 PM |
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ea0o said:
nerf staf to 10%))
This is not real now.
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 06:51 PM |
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Nargott said:
ea0o said:
nerf staf to 10%))
This is not real now.
or just add more penalty for using it
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 07:01 PM |
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ea0o said:
or just add more penalty for using it
This artifact is best for Magic heroes, so -morale penalty is less important and zero if you are necromancer.
If +1 of 2.5% stat will cost 5k, so +20% ini costs like +16 = 80k.
Staff is ~100-160k (PvP - PvE).
Lets give -2/-2 to morale AND luck penalty and cost about ~100k.
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 07:21 PM |
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Edited by ea0o at 19:55, 15 Oct 2017.
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for might heroes with high ini army its strong too.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 07:55 PM |
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ea0o said:
for might heroes with hight ini army its strong too.
For Might heroes there is +20% ini art and this is enough.
-20% ini must be specialized to Magic heroes.
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 08:06 PM |
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Nargott said:
For Might heroes there is +20% ini art and this is enough.
-20% ini must be specialized to Magic heroes.
ring +20% ini deleted in h5.5
u say must... i take it in all games if can get this on map, coz it best option almoust in all scenarios.
anyway, i think, all +%*lvl ini specs/-20% ini weapon/maybe +10% ini ring - must be nerfed.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 08:21 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 20:23, 15 Oct 2017.
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ea0o said:
Nargott said:
For Might heroes there is +20% ini art and this is enough.
-20% ini must be specialized to Magic heroes.
ring +20% ini deleted in h5.5
u say must... i take it in all games if can get this on map, coz it best option almoust in all scenarios.
anyway, i think, all +%*lvl ini specs/-20% ini weapon/maybe +10% ini ring - must be nerfed.
But there is +20% ini sword (and +12! attack additional).
I say must because maximal bonus is for Magic (especially in PvP).
Now this is an imba artefact that's why is useful very good for all heroes.
Quote:
dunno where nargot get his cosmic values/
You say about "cosmic values" but that values explain very well why to do:
Quote:
+- ini specs must be nerfed hard
+
Quote:
all +%*lvl ini specs/-20% ini weapon/maybe +10% ini ring - must be nerfed.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 15, 2017 08:26 PM |
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ea0o
Hired Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 08:33 PM |
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magnomagus said:
The ultimate artifacts are not available of normal games, so I want to move the -20% there too.
good idea, think about ini specs.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 15, 2017 10:00 PM |
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2017 10:08 PM |
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magnomagus said:
I think I rather go for an immediate boost of 5% + 0.15% per level.
I.e. you don't agree that specialization is very strong, because at 20 level nerf is only 20% (8% instead of 10%) and at 10 level is even stronger (6.5% instead of 5%).
You don't believe that ini is very strong because it does not correlate with your mathematical model but the question is whether this model was tested in practical battles (ini bonus versus attack bonus).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 15, 2017 10:20 PM |
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I have added new article to moddb, although it mostly summarizes what has been scattered over the last 30 pages of this thread. I simply cannot put so much info in one article with the release so have to spread it:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/might-magic-heroes-55/news/mmh55-tactical-enhancements
@Nargott: I have no problems abandoning my simple mathematical model, but this formula will work better on XXL maps if level cap is raised to 60 and will give the more casual campaign players a strong enough early boost so they can still 'feel' it.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 12:22 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 00:45, 16 Oct 2017.
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magnomagus said:
@Nargott: I have no problems abandoning my simple mathematical model, but this formula will work better on XXL maps if level cap is raised to 60 and will give the more casual campaign players a strong enough early boost so they can still 'feel' it.
So that fact hero have advantage at earlier than 40 level (if you are mistaken) you do not mind. It is a pity that you didn't test, but don't believe a man who had tested values of many combat factors.
UPDATE (about your tactical post):
Quote:
The reason is they now use mostly 0 base values, for example expert Lightning was 20 + 20 * SP, now it is 0 + 24 * SP
Yes, this looks much better than using negative base values. Unambiguous improvement.
Quote:
A side effect of this change is it will make neutrals a little stronger and shooters a little weaker.
It's more correct to say: make neutrals stronger, especially against your shooters.
Quote:
Buff and Nerf durations are calculated like 1+0,1* Spellpower. To maximize dynamics of spellcasting.
Like.
Quote:
Righteous Might, Endurance & Suffering are more dependant on spellpower to help magic heroes better.
Like.
Quote:
Analysis of Combat logs showed retaliation damage bonuses from combat skill were too low and are now increased to 15%,30%,45%.
Like, but not enough.
Quote:
To make up for combat base skill weakness, martial arts is improved to give 70% for double damage. On average across all tiers the heroes melee damage with 70% martial arts is roughly equal in value to a damage spell with formula 20 + 16 * SP. (If you count spellpower as levels). Without martial arts it is more like (10 + 12 * SP).
I don't understand these formulas. (10+12*SP)*1.7 = 17+20.4*SP (not 20+16*SP).
Quote:
Stunning Strike will reduce ATB by 0.4.
Like.
Quote:
Wasp Swarm on them is almost completely pointless (2*SP) except for annoying the player in very early game. I basically tried to fix this with negative base value, but doesn't help enough. It had no ATB reduction in RC9b, but if I add it, it will become overpowered against neutrals since the player will just always push the target behind the shooters at begin of battle.
You simply don't want to use 10% ATB for the none-skill swarm.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 16, 2017 12:41 AM |
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 12:48 AM |
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Edited by Nargott at 01:56, 16 Oct 2017.
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magnomagus said:
? I did not say any of that.
So, if you test it, and after all count that +8 of 2.5% attack is much better than +10% ini, then I have the same doubts about the validity of the results, as in the case of a retaliation strike.
EDIT:
Sorry for obtrusiveness, but initiative is a very important factor. You must have strong experimental confirmation of any using model.
My experimental way was (starting many years ago):
- Checking melee units, ini = hp = damage? Oh not, against shooters ini and hp is greater than damage (ini = run faster, hp = run with lesser loses)
- Checking ranged units (and furies), ini = hp = damage? Oh not, ini and damage is much greater than hp
- Next iteration: checking melee units at complex army, ini have lesser value against shooters than hp (because often fast run is not enough to block closed shooters, but hp is universal)
- Checking ranged units: surprisely, but ini is greater than damage (formally two stats have similar boost to damage per round, but the key difference was starting ATB < 0.5 = great first strike advantage)
- Next iteration: checking slow melee units versus slow melee units: surprisely, but initiative is less important than damage or hp (the key difference was retaliation strikes which are weakly dependent on the initiative)
- Overall: if we count both melee and shooters, initiative ~ damage (and < hp) for melee but initiative > damage (and >> hp) for shooters
- But when we add first strike ability (fast rushing units with very big speed able to strike at first turn) than melee initiative get immediate advantage over damage, like in case of shooters (because retaliation strike is not enough to compensate loses after the first attack)
- If we compare basic damage and attack stat, both have similar combat influence (if we use correct statistic formula): if attack bonus give +20% of statistic damage, is equal to +20% natural damage bonus; but if you use non-statistic formulas like straight 1 + 8*2.5% than attack is much less than damage (so +20% to natural damage is near to "+30%" of 12*2.5% attack), so I had test for 5% attack of cause, but no matter
- If we compare basic hp and defence stat, than hp is greater even we use correct statistic formula for defense, because hp defends from magical damage while defense is not
So practical conclusion for TotE: +1 speed ~ +10% hp ~ +10% ini ~ +4 attack = +4 defense (at 5% stats).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 16, 2017 01:04 AM |
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My retaliation strike tests already arrived at same conclusion as yours, but I'm not boosting it further because of preparation, I like to have the rest of the power come from the perks.
Quote:
I don't understand these formulas. (10+12*SP)*1.7 = 17+20.4*SP (not 20+16*SP).
Those formulas were not calculated, but estimated looking at a chart of numbers that were not based on this formula, but the real average combat damage against tiers 1,3,5 & 7.
Quote:
You simply don't want to use 10% ATB for the none-skill swarm.
No I want to use 20% ATB for the none-skill swarm
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2017 01:50 AM |
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Good find with "Melee Preference" name, and fits perfectly to Haven T5 (visually and tactically).
I love all changes and I can't wait to play it 
Let me know if you need help with the SkillWheel or Creaturepedia 
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