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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 03, 2015 08:19 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Lets focus on this please because it affects gameplay. I know in here gameplay comes second,but people they are becoming xtra cheap with those things! Can we address that and stop nitpicking for a while?
I'll focus on gameplay when UBi does 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 09:24 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
ChrisD1 said:
Lets focus on this please because it affects gameplay. I know in here gameplay comes second,but people they are becoming xtra cheap with those things! Can we address that and stop nitpicking for a while?
I'll focus on gameplay when UBi does
That translates to never ubi should have us decide on gameplay stuff and not about aesthetics -.-
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 03, 2015 09:37 AM |
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How about Ubi let us decide on gameplay AND aesthetics? But in all fairness, if we should decide on everything in community, game would never materialize, but still, that does not excuse them for some of the atrocious decisions they have made.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 10:51 AM |
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The special abilities of the creatures are:
1: A sign they really don't have much cash to spare, at this moment I think I have a lot more cash than they do.
2: Very cheap, most abilities are boring and copies of other creatures, almost none are about magic they are all about evading damage or double attacks or no retaliation or immunities and undead & Co, extremely boring.
I know HOMM3 also has few abilities, but this is freaking 2015, not 1999! At least give the creatures 1 very unique, special ability, not 1 or 2 abilities that other creatures already have, if you can't balance a game right, then don't make it and sell your game to a company that does have money to spare.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 03, 2015 11:16 AM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
I know HOMM3 also has few abilities, but this is freaking 2015, not 1999! At least give the creatures 1 very unique, special ability, not 1 or 2 abilities that other creatures already have, if you can't balance a game right, then don't make it and sell your game to a company that does have money to spare.
I don't agree with you on this from a basic game-design point of view. I think one of the mistakes they did in H6 was that each creature was given a super-duper interesting powerful unique ability that made it do something that no other creature could do. Obviously on paper that looks like a good idea, but the problem is when every creature is super interesting and special, then suddenly no creature really stands out from the mass. So I think actually we get a better game when some creatures *don't* have a unique and interesting ability but just are average creatures. When that is said, I *do* think that Champion creatures should have unique and interesting abilities to make them something really special.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 11:20 AM |
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Well some dull creaturs like Gnolls, Orcs and all humans don't need awesome abilities, but elites and champions could use some love and a special ability that isn't just a copy or boring (i'm looking at you dryad)
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 03, 2015 11:29 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Enroth community strikes once more.
balanced, analytical, critically thinking community strikes once more, no purpose to throw salt at that harmless and insightful opinion post lol
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 03, 2015 11:40 AM |
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I still think we get too few abilities. H5 succeeded in creating memorable and enjoyable units to play without adding too many of them. And when it did they made perfect sense with each other.
Hunters being an offensive shooter did not need more than double shot. Golems on the other hand were given magic proof, immunity to slow and unlimited retaliation to make up for their lack of speed and initiative. Enemies could not gang up on them and they had the tools to cross the battlefield without suffering high casualties. It gave them the feel of an unstoppable marching machine.
H7 attempts to do that through high health, defense and immunity to slow as the only ability. Being ridiculously durable, it still gives that feeling but.. it feels like something is missing. I very much liked giving a unit character through abilities that support its gameplay. Stats can differentiate units alright but it is the abilities that truly set them apart. There are many durable walkers but the H5 golem was the only unit that played as it did. H7 plans to use a dark elf crossbowman with the exact same ability as the haven crossbowman. They could have dramatically different stats but wouldn't you feel like it is a different version of the exact same unit?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 03, 2015 11:48 AM |
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Elvin said:
H7 plans to use a dark elf crossbowman with the exact same ability as the haven crossbowman. They could have dramatically different stats but wouldn't you feel like it is a different version of the exact same unit?
Certainly, I agree with your there. And I agree that H5 had a good balance in its number of abilities - however, H5 was not without its own flaws. For instance, I feel H5 failed to properly use stats to distinguish units - most specifically, units that were supposed to be tanks generally had too few HP to really make a difference in battle, thus most commonly just ending as trash units. The Treant was a notable exception to this, because it was a level 6 unit with more HP than several level 7 units, and that was a good example of how far you sometimes must - and should imo. not be afraid to - go in order to really make the unit work in its intended role. Because for example the H5 Golems that you mention - even if they had unlimited retaliations, immune to slow, etc., they still were basically free XP when sitting as neutrals on the map, simply because your archers would decimate them before they cross the combat map, and as such, they failed their purpose of being tough and durable imo.
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 11:53 AM |
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alcibiades said:
Rakshasa92 said:
I know HOMM3 also has few abilities, but this is freaking 2015, not 1999! At least give the creatures 1 very unique, special ability, not 1 or 2 abilities that other creatures already have, if you can't balance a game right, then don't make it and sell your game to a company that does have money to spare.
I don't agree with you on this from a basic game-design point of view. I think one of the mistakes they did in H6 was that each creature was given a super-duper interesting powerful unique ability that made it do something that no other creature could do. Obviously on paper that looks like a good idea, but the problem is when every creature is super interesting and special, then suddenly no creature really stands out from the mass. So I think actually we get a better game when some creatures *don't* have a unique and interesting ability but just are average creatures. When that is said, I *do* think that Champion creatures should have unique and interesting abilities to make them something really special.
Absolutely agree, too many abilities is bad fot the game. It makes the game confusing, hard to balance and in the end if all creatures are really special, then none of them is. Let's not forget that it was done on purpose this time, the focus in the battles will be on the positioning of the units, which I really like. That is why most of the abilities have something to do with the placement on the battlefield. The abilities of the elder druid, blade master and ancient treant are all about good positioning...
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 03, 2015 01:37 PM |
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To be honest, i think that each unit (or most of them) having an ability of their own is not a bad thing. If we take core units for example, in later games, they become meat shields if they are not archers. So having an interesting ability gives them more purpose throughout.
Now, i don't mean we should flood the game with abilities, but with 2 abilities per basic form and up to 4 in upgrade, it wouldn't feel that much. And i consider Construct, Alive, etc abilities as well.
You say that having each unit be interesting makes them feel like they don;t stand out, but the same happens if they have too few abilities that are being reused, such as the Raksasha and the blade-dancer that share a lot of abilities.
Dunno, i feel that i'd much more prefer that each unit had at least one ability to make them different than the others. Like Hunter could have Giant-Slayer to differentiate for their archery prowess etc
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 03, 2015 01:48 PM |
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articun said:
To be honest, i think that each unit (or most of them) having an ability of their own is not a bad thing. If we take core units for example, in later games, they become meat shields if they are not archers. So having an interesting ability gives them more purpose throughout.
Now, i don't mean we should flood the game with abilities, but with 2 abilities per basic form and up to 4 in upgrade, it wouldn't feel that much. And i consider Construct, Alive, etc abilities as well.
You say that having each unit be interesting makes them feel like they don;t stand out, but the same happens if they have too few abilities that are being reused, such as the Raksasha and the blade-dancer that share a lot of abilities.
Dunno, i feel that i'd much more prefer that each unit had at least one ability to make them different than the others. Like Hunter could have Giant-Slayer to differentiate for their archery prowess etc
Sorry but that is a flood. H6 had such numbers and it was cluttered mess. The problem here is that this is a strategy game, and the moe variabless you put into it, the less impact you will have. It's like a card game. Make basic ruels, and it will work. Expand it and it will break. For example try to pla MtG with a deck from the first set and one made from the last one.
Not all of us are special in combat btw.
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted July 03, 2015 01:53 PM |
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Dunno if that can actually work as a metaphor as in MtG, having abilities means increasing the mana cost, which means having to wait more to play the card or trying to work harder to make the deck work.
I don't think this truly applies to Heroes though. I mean it wouldn't be that bad to have Ghost be Incorporeal, Hunters having Giant Slaying (double attack is like having two strikes), Cabirs being able to repair all kind of contrsucts, Liches having the animate dead ability, Vampires having strong Life Drain, Treant with Living Shelter and so on. These are just one ability but could make each unit interesting.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 03, 2015 02:15 PM |
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articun said:
Dunno if that can actually work as a metaphor as in MtG, having abilities means increasing the mana cost, which means having to wait more to play the card or trying to work harder to make the deck work.
I don't think this truly applies to Heroes though. I mean it wouldn't be that bad to have Ghost be Incorporeal, Hunters having Giant Slaying (double attack is like having two strikes), Cabirs being able to repair all kind of contrsucts, Liches having the animate dead ability, Vampires having strong Life Drain, Treant with Living Shelter and so on. These are just one ability but could make each unit interesting.
It actally can do very well. Since the mana economy is limited in a certain matter. In order to make cards more attractive they added abilities. To balance this they added stronger cretures, but the only thing that they did not change was the aprox. number of mana in game. A 1 mana creature was a plain 0/1 or 1/1 creature, and mighty dragons for 5+ mana were 5/5 creatures. Now you get the same value and states from a common card with more abilities, not a rare one. The game is so filled with abilties and combinations that they have to arbitrarely limit what can and cannot be played. A PC game should not fall back to this. A simple tight designe that uses few mechanics and abilities to their maximal potential is much better then a system, which is purpusfully bloated by abilities only for the sake of diversity.
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Adilmaru
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 02:18 PM |
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For H6, a lot abilities sound great on paper, but in the game, not really. I mean, it was pretty much: is unit power off cd? Yes? Cast it. No? Move or attack or defend. It was so boring and repeatitive.
I like this style, some units are with unique abilities, some are not.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 03:22 PM |
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properkheldar said:
Rakshasa92 said:
LOLLLLLL!!!!!!
Wyverns and Green Dragons/Emerald Dragons
Have the exact same abilities! They are both about regeneration, both have earth immunity and both have acid attacks in the upgraded forms.
What a cheap ass game.
Wyvern = elite, flyer, resistant to earth, regeneration, dot and aoe poison cloud (lingering)
Dragon = champion, walker, immune to earth, regeneration, armour reducing aoe
Similar, but not the same.
yeah, wyvern isn't immune to earth.
At first, it was cool to look at so many abilities in h6, but I agree with what others have said. Too much abilities can cause more harm than good, fewer abilities can also open more room for interesting skills, remember we have 7 magic schools to fill. If most of units are too much special, the impact of skills/spells/positioning will decrease, I think.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 03, 2015 03:29 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Elvin said:
H7 plans to use a dark elf crossbowman with the exact same ability as the haven crossbowman. They could have dramatically different stats but wouldn't you feel like it is a different version of the exact same unit?
Certainly, I agree with your there. And I agree that H5 had a good balance in its number of abilities - however, H5 was not without its own flaws. For instance, I feel H5 failed to properly use stats to distinguish units - most specifically, units that were supposed to be tanks generally had too few HP to really make a difference in battle, thus most commonly just ending as trash units. The Treant was a notable exception to this, because it was a level 6 unit with more HP than several level 7 units, and that was a good example of how far you sometimes must - and should imo. not be afraid to - go in order to really make the unit work in its intended role. Because for example the H5 Golems that you mention - even if they had unlimited retaliations, immune to slow, etc., they still were basically free XP when sitting as neutrals on the map, simply because your archers would decimate them before they cross the combat map, and as such, they failed their purpose of being tough and durable imo.
I 100% agree with you here, Alci. If anything, I would add that in general H5 units did too much damage compared to the average HP, which led to fast battles - too fast for my liking.
In contrast, in H6 (and H7 too) they've gone to the completely opposite direction - units tank too much damage, leading to very slow battles.
I really wish devs reached a middle ground in this area, they have missed the line for 3 games in a row now
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 03, 2015 03:38 PM |
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More ability variables means more options in combat. Not all creatures should have an active ability and by no means should it be brainlessly spammable. I like situational abilities where you have to make the best out of them.
But I really hate that artificial limit in H7. The number of abilities should depend on how powerful or how reliable they are, as well as creature tier. More powerful abilities should be reserved for higher tier creatures or we risk core unit domination like in H6. But if there is an average of say 2 abilities per unit, weak or situational abilities should not count towards the ability total. I don't see how 0-2 passive and 0-1 active abilities would break the system, if anything I believe they would enrich it.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 03, 2015 03:48 PM |
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And please, let's bring back creature spellbooks instead of having every creature with magic related attacks as active abilities. It would help in making creatures even more distinguishable.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 03, 2015 03:50 PM |
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That's what made archmages so great. Magic immune enemies? Fist of wrath. In need of a damage boost? Righteous might. Enemy curses? Cleansing. Destructive urges? Good ol' fireball. Amazing unit 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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