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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted June 28, 2015 11:46 AM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 11:48, 28 Jun 2015.
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Galaad said:
I think I wasn't clear enough. My main critic with this unit is that it seems they took the h5 druid, only to gender-bend it. I see this as unimaginative and counterproductive.
Hypothetically speaking, what would you have done differently? Personally, I don't mind the "mere genderbending" approach, though off the top of my head, my thought process went "Druid... plants... antler cowl... pseudo-antlers made from repurposed roots? Conveniently-shaped plant crown/cowl? Or... what if the roots are growing into OUT of her? Half-plant, but not quite dryad?"
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted June 28, 2015 12:01 PM |
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I am quite pleased with this Sylvan in terms of design (and not just because I was a Fury voter). It looks colourful and magical, which is great. Here are some of my thoughts on the individual units:
Hunter/Master Hunter: Basically what you would expect. I like the upgrade's hood.
Dryad/Oak Dryad: Looks a bit different than I expected, which is probably because of the artwork they showed. At least they do not look much like the Pixie. However, the question remains whether they will be useful in their own right without the presence of a Treant.
Pixie/Sprite: I like this concept, as they look mysterious and somewhat dangerous. This is a welcome change in my opinion.
Druid/Druid Elder: I like the unupgraded version more than the upgraded one, as the latter looks a bit overdesigned. The former looks good.
Moon Doe/Sun Deer: They look suitably majestic. The Moon Doe's design is a bit simple: a blue doe, but I really like the look of the Sun Deer.
Blade Dancer/Blade Master: Probably the biggest disappointment. The artwork they showed during the voting process looked much better. Maybe the ingame model will look better, but the artwork does not look good.
Green Dragon/Emerald Dragon: From a gameplay perspective I would rather have seen a winged dragon. However, if the Treant will indeed be a shooter, then it may just work. Otherwise, they look solid.
Treant/Ancient Treant: We already knew what the unupgraded version was going to look like, and I love it. The upgrade looks good as well.
So overall, I am quite satisfied.
____________
Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted June 28, 2015 12:25 PM |
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Galaad, forgive me if i am wrong. I am merely trying to understand some things here. So...
1. In Heroes V Ashan was not yet entirely established and there was a lot of Axeoth and Enroth references and plot copying. Am i wrong here? I think it was said as such in an interview of Erwan (as much credibility as we can get from here).
2. Heroes VI was the first truly Ashan based game that tried to go back in time and fix or retcon some mistakes of the story of Heroes V. But Heroes VI only had 5 factions and a limited campaign, so not many plot hole were able to be fixed. Though at this point the term consistency of Units with Ashan started to emerge. We even saw the Dark Elves changed a lot from the Heroes V counterpart and the Spider theme expand in Necropolis. Then, again Ubisoft came to odds with the studios producing the game and thus Heroes VI never became a finished Heroes game.
3. In Heroes VII they are trying to continue what Heroes VI started but while trying to provide a better game overall. That is why, each faction has a story not connected to the main story of the game. It offers a way to fill some plot holes or play through events that were mentioned before. This has the + elements and the - elements.
If these points are correct, then i can continue saying:
1. This is the true Ashan Sylvan. Thus, Dryads and Pixies are separate beings.
2. Since the male Druid figure in heroes VI is canon, as we have seen in follow up games such as Clash of Heroes, i don't see why the female Druid should not have the same attire.
-Trying to make logic out of it (a dangerous pastime i know), maybe the reason they wear the deer head, is to be connected with the Deer (as it seems in Ashan they are spiritual protectors of the forests). This gives two different points of view: 1. It is a form of status among the elves, much like a crown for a king that distinguishes the greater or master druids from the rest of the order and 2. It may be a connection with the totem animal and through it, with the rest of nature, thus providing the Druid the ability to communicate better with Nature.
3. I see no reason why the blade dancer should be an elite unit, but i can understand that the core variant are the upper-class or graduates of the trainees, while the new ones we got are the Teachers or the ones that have dedicated their lives in learning all forms, thus becoming Master of this craft.
4. Strangely enough, Sylvan is the only faction to have two Spirits in core. Which is unique in many a lineup we've seen so far. Some Factions use the Humanoid/Beast/Spirit approach (Skeleton/Spider/Ghost, Golem/Gargoyle/Cabir, etc) and others have some variation of this rule.
Got tired for now. :/
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 28, 2015 12:27 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 12:34, 28 Jun 2015.
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Galaad said:
I think I wasn't clear enough. My main critic with this unit is that it seems they took the h5 druid, only to gender-bend it. I see this as unimaginative and counterproductive.
it'd be worse if they just made it all sexy because it's female. making it just a "genderbend" shows they're equal, which is way better than treating it differently.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 28, 2015 12:41 PM |
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@Articun
What is it, that you are not understanding?
@Kiryu
Galaad said:
there is a whole grey area between your usual Ashan prostitute and being dressed with a bag!
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted June 28, 2015 12:45 PM |
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The fact as to why you have a problem about male/female druid being with different attire. Since if what i wrote is correct, this Sylvan is now the "official" one.
And mainly i wanted to get my facts right so as to not try to bring logical comments with illogical background 
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 28, 2015 12:50 PM |
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I think you people missunderstad the core of Galaads point.
The problem is not that she is unatractive or a "copy" of the H5 version (or so I hope). But that her destinguishable features, the headgear and staff, are directly inspired by their H5 counterpart which feels forced, especialy when compared to the simplistic basic form.
Unlike other units, this one is new, made from scratch and it feels kind of sad that rather then to expand the vizuals of the world, they went for a referrence to the old form. They could come up with something totaly new. A crown from and Owl, flowers or mistletoe or anything else.
Look at things like orc in H5, H6 and H7, even if some work on the same base, each expands how they can look. This was an oportunity to show that not all druids look the same, but they went for that same option as they did before.
If that is not the case, then this is my problem with the druid. I actually love the basic form. It is perfect imho. But the upgrade feels forced.
Also I think Galaads Sylvan opinion was one of the best written post from him in a long time. He expressed his personal opion whitout forcing it onto anybody. So +1 for that.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 28, 2015 01:42 PM |
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@Dave_Jame
i can agree with this, though i got the impression that somehow not succumbing to gender stereotypes or some snow was a bad thing, which is ludicrous. We don't need cleavage or a form-fitting dress (i find the cut in the dress to be too much).
The druid is great but a bit too similar to the h5 one, even if i can find that to be just as much of a positive as a negative and the upgrade does get too busy even if it's tame compared to most upgrades.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 28, 2015 01:43 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:47, 28 Jun 2015.
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Thanks for the kind words Dave Jame but I never intended to force my opinion on anybody, but I do come out a bit blunt at times, and some can't handle it.
Aside that off-topic note, you perfectly got my point.
I also stressed out that if they wanted to stick to an old model this kind of look fits better a male. IMO
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 28, 2015 01:50 PM |
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Galaad said:
Well is true she doesn't HAVE to be pretty, but then should be a design decision. The way they went with it, I can't understand why they didn't do male druid instead.
omg because they wanted to represent the druid with a female which is all the reason they need.
Galaad said:
I think I wasn't clear enough. My main critic with this unit is that it seems they took the h5 druid, only to gender-bend it.
It's almost as if it was the same unit
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 28, 2015 03:31 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:02, 28 Jun 2015.
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I'll go through these snowers one by one, telling you guys what i think since you all care so much about my opinion. based on artwork only though.
Hunter/Master hunter
classic elf bowman. nothing special. like everything in this game the basic form would work better as an upgrade since the current upgrade is too detailed and busy in it's design. Not a fan of the hood and it's too green but far from bad. good creature.
Dryad/oak Dryad
Not bad. definitely too green. upg should be some other colour like blue and some more effort to differentiate it from the pixie would've been appreciated. I'm thinking something like the warhammer dryads (being closer to treant saplings) would've been better since it'd move away from the magic-floating-lady concept used by two core creatures. I like them though colour should be changed for the upgrade.
Pixie/Sprite
love em. colourful, vibrant and alien. fantastic design and the upgrade isn't too detailed. it's quite perfect i'd say. favo of the lineup 
Druid/Druid Elder
the best ELite by a longshot. Simple, down-to-earth design that doesn't make a big deal out of her gender (though heels is certainly a bit iffy though i'll doubt they'll be noticeable). Upg is simpler than most though she has a tad too many braids and the deer-helmet is kinda pushing it. still, best elite and second best sylvan creature.
Moon doe/Sun deer
Should've been a unicorn. Does break up the green so it's not terrible. really should've been a unicorn though. It better shoot lazers from its eyes or i'l be pissed.
Blade dancer/Blade master
The most redundant and crap creature. better than the voting art by a thousand miles, but still a blade dancer. should be a griffin or mantis or anything else. Say, that h4 plant could make a comeback...
Green dragon/Emerald dragon
It's cool. too many branches on the head there (a single bonsai would be way cooler) and it's a bit too thin. otherwise great. just behind treant in coolness.
Treant/Ancient treant
third best creature. hard to get the concept of a "walking tree" better than this as it's large and imposing. upg gets blue glow which i'm torn about: different colour is nice but just adding a glow seems a bit much when the model-change should be enough (more/Longer brancher). still, good creature that i want to see in action.
good lineup. replace blade dancer and deer with waspwort and unicorn respectively and it'd be pretty fantastic.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 28, 2015 04:55 PM |
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Here is why I think sylvan is not special and could have been much better.
One by one..
The hunter: not much to say. This type of unit is like pizza, when it's good it's great, when it's bad, it's still pretty good. Don't care for the hood but it has a bow and sword and looks like a lotr ranger, so it's still pretty good. 
Dryad: this unit makes me lol in terms of unit choice and design. here we have what I thought people were tired of (naked elemental ladies) after h6 and all those glories, light and water elementals, snow maidens and those awful sanctuary elementals. But then they turn it green, call it a dryad, and everyone dances with joy. Now we can expect more in the future, yipe for me.
Pixie: I'd like it more if it didn't share ghosts model. But I see this unit as the extra thing that comes with the package of fairy creatures. That package was shipped away during the voting, so I have no idea why tinker bell would stick around. I actually liked the leafy design durning votes but the classic looks doesn't fit without classic creatures.
Core has two wasted spots. Dryad could have been cool if they didn't look so bad and I would rather have a beast in this "nature" faction's core tier.
Druid: same as most people. Heels are dumb. The unupgraded is great. Upgrade needs less color and a different head all together. I hate the deer look. Deer to sylvan is like spiders to necropolis. Lichs had spider legs out their back, Druids get deer skins for hats. But I also don't care for aged elves (?) as an upgraded, even if it's called elder Druid.
Bambi: makes the Druid upgrade look silly cause we have this forest critter in the line up. It's abilities are going to make or break the line up for me.
Bladedancer: could have made it like the voting art. These ones just don't look agile enough in about every possible way. The upgrade...again with elder elves, is just silly. Waste of a good elite spot. Pegasus I miss you 
Elites are pretty bad overall.
The_green_drag: I like the concept of the rocky dragon and the emerald scales of the upgrade. They have great color schemes for them (I wished for some gold on the upgrade) and I'm glad marzin said the models are apparently new. A less serpentine body and a much shorter tail would have made these guys look more original since they look very similar to kirin in this regard. Less tree like would have been nice since we have treants.
Treant: looks great. Upgrade is really blue but that's okay. This is how a treant should look. I still don't like them as champions but maybe a ranged attack will change my mind.
Champion tier is the best by far.
Overall I do not really like this line up or the their designs. But I play with all the factions so I'm gonna have to put up with... it just could have been done much better. All three line up choices we had were not good and that's ubis fault. I hope they get away from this humanoid sylvan faction next time around.
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted June 28, 2015 06:53 PM |
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Since Sylvan was my favourite faction in all the previous games, especially H5, I feel obliged to post in this thread. So lets begin a review of H7 Sylvan.
Core
Hunter: I liked these elven archers very much, especially the upgraded ones. Cloak just makes them look awesome 5/5
Dryad: The tree spirit ladies are fine, although they might look too similair to Necropolis' ghosts in game. 4/5
Pixie: I love how designers made them so flower-ish, and they also make Sylvan look more colorful. 5/5
Elite
Druid: Even though I think female druids are good, I must agree heels and green necro eyes look misplaced to say least. 3/5
Doe/Deer: Doe indeed looks like Bamby. Deer is not that bad, actualy, although I'd like it more if it had a megaloceros vibe into it. Also, this is no unicorn. 2/5
Blade dancer: I didn't like this unit in H5 - who am I kidding - it was the ONLY Sylvan unit I outright hated in H5, so naturaly I didin't like the idea of it when lineups were first anounced. Although I must admit I almost liked the vote's concept of it, we all can see the concepts we have now are quite... different. These blade dancers I don't like even more than H5 ones, and that stupid smirk is certainly not helping. 1/5
Chapions
Dragon: They simply look awesome. Branches, stones and especially emerald scales really make them look cool. 10/10
Treant: Another great design. I love how they were made three legged, and branch tusks look awesome. 10/10
Overall, I expected worse from this faction when Fury won the vote. Now I can say it's not that bad, although I'd really like some animal unit like lynx, tiger or even hippogriff in there. Anyway, 9/10, would play Sylvan again.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted June 28, 2015 07:54 PM |
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I wanted to put this in the general Discussion Thread, but seeing that there is a Sylvan-one now, I might as well put my thoughts here, where they belong. Here's what I wrote on the SC:
"I'm extremely late to the reveal-party, because I was off for the weekend. Let's have a look at these champions. Those dragons are quite beautiful. Why should they need wings if they can play hide-and-seek with their opponent and emerge out of nowhere when said enemy least expects them? It's good to see how they resemble Sylanna herself, being covered by plants, trees and glowing rocks. Truly worthy avatars of this majestic goddess, and true to their name Green/Emerald .
You might consider them overdesigned compared to the H3 and H5 Green Dragons, but they are now perfectly the forces of nature, maybe even the essence of it in a dense package. I like the sight of them, now let's have them trample and dissolve some mediocre wolves :3...
Treants. We know the slow but deadly Dendroids from H3, and the entangling bulky stuff from H5. Effective, durable and strong. These treants look like they can put up a hell of a fight too. Taking root to make themselves even tougher, while throwing boulders or logs at their enemies, whenever they have the chance. Up close they'll stampede about and wave their massive branches to crush whatever comes at them. It's gonna be Ents/Groot all over if you ask me. Those Ancient Treants...the blue glow is interesting. Not autumny yellow/orange like in H5. I suppose the blueness corresponds to the Night-setting of the Town Screen. They carry some of that wherever they go."
Do I have any issues with the current line-up? Well, the question is: "to smile or not to smile". Should this unit have that mysterious smile on his face? I interpret it as being calm, but also certain of himself, his skills...not afraid of what enemies cross his path. He faces battle without fear, in service of Sylanna and his own brethren. Maybe the smile is a bit too overdone and should be...toned down. The smile-less version of him, posted by ChrisD on the general Discussion Thread, appealed to me. A smile isn't bad, it can express a certain emotion, or state of mind.
Druids and their green eyes. I've seen the black version mod on the DT already, not badly done if I may say so. Green glowing eyes have a Necropolis feel to them, so maybe the designers could have another look at them (I don't think it would be thát much work). On the other hand: Druids are magic-users, keepers of the Forest, so why not show some of that magic in their appearance?
The pixie-art is very different from what we first saw a handful of months ago. I believe that the current art is based on the fact that the Town Screen will be Night. This Day/Night vote hadn't taken place yet during the line-up voting.
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 28, 2015 08:40 PM |
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A few simple changes to the dancer and Druid would do wonders. Hopefully they don't be stubborn about it. As the for Deer, an extra elite choice with expansions may save me from it.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 28, 2015 10:27 PM |
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Overall I do like Sylvan pretty well, although there are a few disappointments:
Hunter: This unit is ok. It's not great for me, but it's not bad either.
Dryad: I think this unit looks very good if seen isolated, even great. I do have concerns that the basic and upgraded version look very similar, and then I think that the fact that we have two floating female spirits in core level of the same faction is a bit unfortunate.
Sprite: I overall like what they've done with this unit. I like how it's basically just an explosion of colours, that's a nice twist.
Druid: Like the Hunter, I think this unit looks good but not great. The glowing eyes on the upgrade is most definitely a mistake and need to go sooner than later. It's bad enough that everything remotely connected to Necropolis has eyes that glow green, we don't need this in Sylvan also!
Blade Dancer: Probably the weakest link, although I have to say I actually think it's better than most people give impression of. The face is obviously completely off and need to be changed. My other big gripe is the feet - are those tennis socks in sandals? But from neck to knees, I think it looks ok.
Deer: I love the upgraded version. The basic version is too cute to really strike me as a fighting unit.
Treant: I really hope the "ranged" thing is UbiLimb trolling us if we started datamining. That would just be wrong. The unit looks good however, even if the colour on the upgrade is a bit weird.
Dragon: I think the upgraded version looks really great. Is it better than the old dragons? Well I'm not sure, at least it's very different from what we can expect Black Dragon to look like.
____________
What will happen now?
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Raenus
Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
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posted June 28, 2015 10:54 PM |
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[quote name=alcibiades
Treant: I really hope the "ranged" thing is UbiLimb trolling us if we started datamining. That would just be wrong. The unit looks good however, even if the colour on the upgrade is a bit weird
While I agree that shooting would be a bit..... weird? Nonsensical? It would help distinguish the two Champs, which is something that I fear we need.
As it is it appears that we will end up having a choice between two tank Champs (really glad you all chose the offensive lineup ) which kind of defeats the purpose of having two in the first place. Add that to the fact that Dryads can heal Treants and I really see no reason to ever pick Dragons unless they do something to change things up. Also Sylvan is the faction most suited to shooting units in my personal opinion, so all-in-all having a shooting champ would please me greatly (even if it makes no sense). Just my opinion.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 28, 2015 11:14 PM |
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I guess we'll all find out soon enough, though just a reminder of the descriptions provided during the vote:
Quote:
Core creatures
-Hunter/Master hunter: ranged damage dealer with double attack.
-Dryad/Oak dryad: supporting creature working in synergy with the Treant to heal it.
-Pixie/Sprite: small damage dealer negating enemy retaliation.
Elite creatures
-Blade dancer: multiple targeting damage dealer.
-Druid/Elder Druid: saboteur and ranged damage dealer with entangling abilities.
-Moon Doe/Sun Deer: fast damage dealer with supporting abilities.
Champion creatures
-Green dragon/Emerald dragon: tough damage dealer with average move range and area of effect damage.
-Treant/Ancient treant: tough and resistant creature with entangling abilities and dryad protection ability.
____________
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 29, 2015 11:30 AM |
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When I think of the Treant as a Ranged creature, I actually envisioned it grabbing large rocks on the battlefield, entangling them to get a hold, picking them up once entangled and then flinging them across the battlefield. Somewhat akin to the Cyclops warmachine for Stronghold. A damaging attack that could damage walls as well as units, just like the Cyclops in Heroes3.
Additional aspects (any combination possible) that I thought of:
- If it's too powerful, make it a 2-turn attack (1 turn to pick up a boulder, 1 turn to fling it);
- Have the boulder strike a 2x2 area;
- Use a slight randomisation for the area it strikes (+/- 1 cell around the target cell ... can hit the one aimed for of course);
- When attacking choose between attacking a wall segment or a unit - or in case of a 2x2 area, hit anything (wall or unit) in the target area;
Aside from the ranged attack, I also envisioned it as a wall crusher. When it makes a melee attack against a wall, it starts to entangle it. Every subsequent turn that the Treant attacks the wall segment, the entanglement spreads further to neighboring wall segments (eventually covering the entire wall) and each entangled wall segment takes damage. Possibly with a build-up as well. Visually it could look like poison ivy starts to cover the wall, spreading out from the Treat. When the Treant moves, the poison ivy all dies off and falls away. If it sticks in place but doesn't attack the wall, no damage is done to the wall for that turn.
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emilsn91
Supreme Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 11:47 AM |
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I must admit that the green dragon is the most original dragon I have seen in ages!
It is such a dare from them and I love them for it. I really like it.
This is by far the strongest line up they have presented so far.
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