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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 19, 2015 06:08 PM |
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Sorry, I thought you understood I was talking about other places.
Well, it's a complicated affair.
Basically there lived an indigenous population initially, then in the Classical Age Greek colonists started coming, founding new cities and establishing a new order, then the Phoenicians came (Also known as Carthaginians) and colonized the Western shore, then the Romans came and after the First Punic War Sicily passed in Roman hands.
After the fall of the Roman empire it was initially invaded by Goths, but the island was reconquered by the Byzantines.
Most of the time Sicily remained a Byzantine stronghold, that's why I called them Greeks, also due to the fact that at the time the Normans called the inhabitants Greeks, and that part of the Greek heritage survived through Rome.
It's also a way to distinguish them between the Latins (Italians, Longobards and Normans), and the Saracens.
So it's a convoluted affair, but effectively there were no real native Sicilians, that's why I grouped them as Greeks.
Look at us today, we're so mixed that you could define us as a new ethnicity altogether. 
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 19, 2015 07:13 PM |
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Herry said:
My own thoughts are too straight-forward for this. So there is a slight chance that you become more dumber for reading this. I'm giving you a last chance to reconsider looking at my thoughts.
Does not matter if your thoughts are straight forward. Present them.
Also read my long post on page 4. It contains pretty much all our arguments to the core(with the exception of a few).
As for the video. It is made to make things look simple but it completely ignores the fact that EU have insane debts. We weren't standing on our own feet alone before the crisis and taking more debts won't make us stand much longer.
Secondly, when it comes to the matter of responsibility, countries should and must prio their population first.
It is true that while compared to poorer countries we have good living standards and welfare. But the truth is that we should have crashed long ago if it were not for the immense loans that goverments took rather than admit certain areas needed cuts.
In the video it is also stated that these people are like us. That is like saying we are like shoe boxes.
They aren't like us because they have different cultures, norms, ways of living etc.
He is indeed right that we are writing history right now. We always are.
But do we want history to remember us as the generation that doomed our young by letting our feelings rule instead of reason by incur debts and lie to our population in media?
I for one, already feel this situation should have crashed long ago and I fear that all of this might just increase nationalism and racism, because the subject becomes "overheated".
I don't say we should not help them. But what I do say is that we need to sit in a boat without leaks before we head out to help anyone else. Otherwise, we will all just sink together.
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted September 19, 2015 07:30 PM |
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What if Europe paid the money of loans with loans? Before you rush into conclusions, read the rest of the idea first. What if EU gives the refugees weapons, or fights to free their country, and in exchange, when it becomes stable enough, Syria pays back EU in money. Of course this would take some time, but it's a win-win for both sides. EU won't have to invest money or property for refugees and refugees can lead a good life in their own country. It's the kind of "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours back" or "Give and take" idea. Of course, in practive it won't be that simple, but the problem with this idea, I doubt it's possible or EU will even consider doing it  But meh, these are my thoughts, as straight-forward and as stupid as they might be.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 19, 2015 07:47 PM |
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Err...
It's actually too difficult to repay the loans, we don't have the money to do that already, especially us Italians and countries like Spain, Greece, Ireland and Portugal and the amount we owe is enormous.
The idea of fighting for the Syrians seems a good idea, but that's what they thought when they waged war against Ben Ali, Ghaddafi and Mubarak; look at the results, Lybia is war torn by local warlords and Egypt is currently ruled by a general since the elections turned out to be "wrong"...
By intervening we need to be as neutral as possible, and that's not possible unfortunately, the nature of the civil war in Syria is in such a way that our intervention would mean an attack on Russia, as they support Assad, even now that Russia has sent troops to Syria to deal with ISIS the west has been looking in dismay as they fear that Putin's intervention would mean the victory of Assad, thus ruining their schemes.
The west needs Syria to be war torn, otherwise they'd have a possible beach head in Europe by Russia, which means that they are still fighting the cold war...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted September 19, 2015 07:57 PM |
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Edited by Herry at 20:02, 19 Sep 2015.
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Oh yeah right, I forgot it. Damn alliances, even WW I was caused by the ****ed up system. Well, with that being said, the options are damn limited. *edited out thoughts*. It's also probably a bad idea to try and bribe someone so... You know what, these are my own thoughts, and I'm keeping them private, they won't even help... Meh I'll keep thinking. Thinking is the minimum I can do here to help.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 19, 2015 11:55 PM |
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Herry said:
What if Europe paid the money of loans with loans
Why does this sound so familiar? Hmm...maybe because that's what we have been doing for the last 30 years? See you can pay back a loan with another loan but then you will one day have to pay that back and with interest. Each event triggers the next in a never ending cycle.
Herry said:
Before you rush into conclusions, read the rest of the idea first. What if EU gives the refugees weapons, or fights to free their country, and in exchange, when it becomes stable enough, Syria pays back EU in money.
I think fighting to free their country would be a better option than to hand them arms. Considering that ISIS may have infiltrators amongst the refugees, you might just be helping them spread fear and terror.
However, the question is this. Why should, for example Sweden, lend arms and human lives to a country we have had nothing to do with? Why should we be forced into solving their problems? If we flipped the situation at hand, do you think, for example Syria, would come all the way up to Sweden if a war started here? I personally believe that would be highly unlikely.
Herry said:
Of course this would take some time, but it's a win-win for both sides. EU won't have to invest money or property for refugees and refugees can lead a good life in their own country. It's the kind of "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours back" or "Give and take" idea.
"We will soon have the economy back on track. It might take some time but it will happen." - It is exactly this kind of thinking that brought us into our extreme debt situation. In all three cases, we got no time set. "Some time", "Soon", "In the near future" might sound good at first but once you look more carefully at these statements you realise it might be anything from 3 months to 50 years, if not longer.
The EU invests money if they hand refugees weapons, boosts their forces with its military or by other means aid their cause.
I know my money rants are both monotonous and tedious but we are like I said already in a deep debt trap and adding more debts won't make it disappear.
Herry said:
Of course, in practive it won't be that simple, but the problem with this idea, I doubt it's possible or EU will even consider doing it But meh, these are my thoughts, as straight-forward and as stupid as they might be.
Few things on this scale are simple. It is noble of you wishing to help these people. I doubt very few humans on this planet enjoys seeing misery.
In my eyes Herry, there is nothing wrong with your heart.
I think what you need to give a second thought are your priorities or how others might view the matter.
You need to be debt free and stand on solid ground before you help anyone else. It's like the old saying "How can you help someone when you can't even help yourself?".
Just look on the bizarre boat example of Sweden. We scream for more in the water to climb aboard while we completely ignore the fact that we got holes in the hull, ripped sails and a malfunctioning rudder. It's only a matter of time before we sink. So all that was done in the end was to place more unfortunate souls in the water.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 20, 2015 01:48 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 01:49, 20 Sep 2015.
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Whew, I cannot read this thread. Too much for my sick body.
But once again I did catch the EU cannot deal with this issue.
This same issue is not well-dealt with here in the States. We have States that are in the red and desperate measures that are put into place and then like a few "citizens" of their own country as said; "to heck with the folks already native to said country" whatever it takes to get these new faces IN.
Refugees are NOT only from war zones. Mexico is not at war, well at least in the traditional sense, the government is at economic war and unconcerned that it's population must cross our border for relief. But, that's a heck of a topic I cannot sustain.
About the E.U. and the U.S.
I have to ask; How can any government deal with an intrusion of large numbers of people (sometimes hostile)that are free to go anywhere at any time? How is permanent social-anything supposed to be planned? You'd have to have elite mobile units that can adjust their locations and services from day to day, to wherever the next move.
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"Do your own research"
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 20, 2015 02:59 AM |
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Quote:
that are free to go anywhere at any time?
This is just it, the EU has over the years worked so hard to break down barriers and borders within its community (you can go from one end to the other without ever needing your passport), but this freedom of movement doesn't apply to non EU citizens, but the network is being abused severely.
It's why I don't get why Hungary is getting such backlash, they're clearly in the right, if Germany can sustain 800,000 refugees then that's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't warrant such a ghastly horde the right to trample everyone's borders and laws along the way.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted September 20, 2015 09:18 AM |
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I still think it would cost less to fight for them. Or else, you need some other means of keeping them off your country that isn't just pure evil. I know, you think you have to help yourself before you help others, but that's not always true, even though that isn't what I'm talking about. In Islam, it's a very great deed to help others at some cost from you, but you all probably won't agree and start some economic arguements and stuff. Well I ask you this: What do you think would cost more, pretending there's no Russia in this talk because this is theoretical: Freeing Syria, or having to deal with the refugees?
Also, suppose my idea was possible, which is better, dealing with some international(Give it enough time unattended, and a fire will burn a field, after it was burning a tree[idk how I thought of such a monological quote, but someone else probably said it before me]) danger for a fee, or having to deal with refugees? I mean, what the **** are you supposed to win with the latter? A bag of hot dog ****?
Also, if the part from the cartoon wasn't wrong, it would make sense, because EU(supposedly, ok? better now?) invested in hi-tech weapons and defenses and stuff. Think about it.
Either way, I pray EU does the right choice, whatever that is.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 20, 2015 09:52 AM |
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Herry said:
I still think it would cost less to fight for them. Or else, you need some other means of keeping them off your country that isn't just pure evil.
Pure evil? Herry what you might see as pure evil someone else might might see as pure reason. I ask you once again to answer my question: Why should we help them? Why should we go into a conflict we had no or very little part in?
Herry said:
I know, you think you have to help yourself before you help others, but that's not always true, even though that isn't what I'm talking about.
This is true to most cases unless you plan to do a intervention by sacrificing yourself. In the case of countries, it won't happen. No matter how you slice and dice this cake the argument stays the same. We do, in fact, NOT have the money. Seeing loans = money = foolish. We have borrowed and borrowed for years and if we are to even have a chance to rise up from the debts we need to stop adding more to them.
Herry said:
In Islam, it's a very great deed to help others at some cost from you, but you all probably won't agree and start some economic arguements and stuff.
Have you ever read the Quran? I doubt you have. This line will only in reality, apply to other muslims. I can also go and yap about how the Quran tells them that we are dogs and can be lied to in every sentance and much more, but I feel that would only rise the heat even more.
Herry said:
Well I ask you this: What do you think would cost more, pretending there's no Russia in this talk because this is theoretical: Freeing Syria, or having to deal with the refugees?
I think the best thing to do would be to start fixing our own leaking holes in our hulls. Like I said, one has to be in no need of help in order to effectively help others.
Herry said:
Also, suppose my idea was possible, which is better, dealing with some international(Give it enough time unattended, and a fire will burn a field, after it was burning a tree[idk how I thought of such a monological quote, but someone else probably said it before me]) danger for a fee, or having to deal with refugees? I mean, what the **** are you supposed to win with the latter? A bag of hot dog ****?
I can agree that dealing with say ISIS is a must. Besides desling with them though, I still ask you - Why should bleed for something we had no part in? As for your example, you could look at it this way. Once everything has burnt down then the ashes will provide nutrients for something to grow up stronger.
Herry said:
Also, if the part from the cartoon wasn't wrong, it would make sense, because EU(supposedly, ok? better now?) invested in hi-tech weapons and defenses and stuff. Think about it.
The cartoon comes from one of the MSMs (Mass Medias) and they have abandoned impartial journalism. Instead they now spit out what "they" think is right (which sadly tends to be leftwing thoughts).
I ask you anew though, why should we care for something we had nothing to do with?
Herry said:
Either way, I pray EU does the right choice, whatever that is.
You can stop praying for the right choice for the EU to make is to disband the EU and they won't really "do" that choice.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 20, 2015 11:09 AM |
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Saying that Europe has no part in what happens in Syria is rather naive even if we take the refugee wave as some some unprovoked alien invasion. The civil war there is financed by the US but also by some European NATO members - weapons, training the "opposition", direct financial injections, etc. There was, for example, a short-lived scandal in Bulgaria some three months ago after the testing of some weapons on a military range resulted in 1 dead and several injured. The dead turned to be American citizen, later some leaks reached the media that the weapons tested there were supposed to go to the "moderate Syrian opposition". The state officials refused to conduct any serious investigation of course, with the current government being full of US puppets up to the president himself. Sweden wants to join NATO, no? Go ahead but you won't win any innocence or impartiality points regarding the Middle East by doing so.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 20, 2015 11:19 AM |
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Zenofex said:
Saying that Europe has no part in what happens in Syria is rather naive.
I beg to differ here Zenofex. The world blames the US for acting out as a world police, by starting to meddle in affairs that we have no strings to only exposes EU to act like the US. "Stick not thy nose into the business of others." is a good saying.
As for your petty "financed by the US but also by some European NATO members" I only got this to say, actions made by a few does not mean that everyone agrees or thinks the same as the few doing it.
Zenofex said:
Sweden wants to join NATO, no? Go ahead but you won't win any innocence or impartiality points regarding the Middle East by doing so.
Atm the numbers point towards us not wanting to join NATO.
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted September 20, 2015 11:27 AM |
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Damn wars, the situation is getting ridiculous more and more with every minute passing.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 20, 2015 12:20 PM |
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Yet we have never asked ourselves why we never work with the root to it. The mind.
Humans are no strangers to war and we will continue to be familiar with it until we decide it is time to change.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 20, 2015 02:40 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
Yet we have never asked ourselves why we never work with the root to it. The mind.
the powers of the most advanced countries have been playing with the human mind since the 50's(or 60's, i forget). the problem is, they're only trying to find ways to control the minds of the masses, and further than that: to weaponize mind control. this has become public knowledge, so anyone attempting to refute that simple fact, should be able to easily google it to find out for themselves. they've been playing with controlling the weather(and to weaponize THAT), too. but that's a discussion more for the global warming thread, and not here.
the bottom line is, as long as human beings are programmed to eliminate their competition(read: "destroy", which is the core of human nature), seeking peace by "fixing minds" isn't going to work. different nations will do whatever's profitable for their own country/people/selves.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 20, 2015 03:21 PM |
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fred79 said:
the powers of the most advanced countries have been playing with the human mind since the 50's(or 60's, i forget). the problem is, they're only trying to find ways to control the minds of the masses, and further than that: to weaponize mind control.
the bottom line is, as long as human beings are programmed to eliminate their competition(read: "destroy", which is the core of human nature), seeking peace by "fixing minds" isn't going to work. different nations will do whatever's profitable for their own country/people/selves.
I was more thinking into working with our ego's, not force mind control or mass indoctrination. However you are correct that this have been attempted by many countries.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 20, 2015 03:32 PM |
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our ego's are connected to what we dominate. and i wasn't FOR the side of mind control, mind you. i was merely pointing out how your idea of trying to change people's minds isn't going to work, because of what i mentioned in my previous post.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 20, 2015 04:35 PM |
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Change our minds, no one can. Controlling, yes they can and they do.
Basically our democracies so many people fought for are down today to cunning dictatorships where every thought slipping out from the unique pensée or every attempt to rationalize or question delicate problematics, are censored, criminalized and even punished. So much for this.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 20, 2015 04:36 PM |
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fred79 said:
our ego's are connected to what we dominate. and i wasn't FOR the side of mind control, mind you. i was merely pointing out how your idea of trying to change people's minds isn't going to work, because of what i mentioned in my previous post.
To say that our ego's are connected to what we dominate is not really the most accurate way to put it. I also did not say you were for mind control but that was what the expirements would hopefully lead to.
You also do not know how I wanted to change peoples minds. In fact, I don't want to change anything at all. What I want is for people to start work with themselves, their egos (which is linked to the mind).
I am not saying X shall try to change Y's mind. Just for your information.
Edit: Well while it is true that the government and medias can take actions to limit say our freedom of speech or brainwash certain individuals with certain information, that's not really mind control, at least in my book (this is of course up for debate).
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 20, 2015 05:00 PM |
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I think fred's talking about direct mind control, with certain drugs etc, not propaganda and indoctrination. While it's true that had been experimented with on individuals back in the 60's, they failed big time. You can not hypnotize masses in that sense, you can do it with state schools and controled media to a certain level but even that is getting harder with the internet. Most peope are certainly still affected by state propaganda but not to a complete brainwashing level.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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This thread is pages long: 
