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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2015 11:47 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:48, 23 Sep 2015.
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I actually read more foreign media, like The Economist, than Swedish media. Sadly though there is a lot of desinformation about these issues, especially among the racist people in Sweden who do not read "mainstream media" but instead lock themself inside the bubble of racist alternate media.
fuChris said:
xerox said:
It is so both ironic and tragic how the very same countries that themselves were struck by war and had masses of refugees themselves not even a century ago now deny freedom to the refugees of today.
Umm...what? What's WW1 got to do with this?
I consider myself liberal by most standards but this is exactly the kind of mindless drivel that has been pushed by the liberal media during the last few weeks.
If you are talking about the Hungarian exodus of '56 then that is a completely different matter. Back then western europe had to deal with an influx of around 200k hungarians who btw they shared a cultural bond with due to being part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. The Not to mention that this meant taking a stand against their ideological enemy the USSR who was literally at their doors.
The ones who left the country back then were actually the well educated, foreign speaking, usually young people who could be said were the best our society had to offer. Even so they had to be vetted first so that they could ensure that no soviet spies were amongst them. None of this "go where you want without any registration" bs that is expected by the liberal media.
If sh*t were to go down in Ukraine and we had to help out Ukranian refugees then we would take them gladly but we can not be expected to pick up the tab for Merkels policies concerning people from literally half a world away.
So people should only be granted asylum if they're escaping from the right country and have the right culture? And here I thought Europe was done with racist policies.
Anyway, y'all should watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOnXh3NN9w
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 24, 2015 12:20 AM |
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I don't know about that. For me the racists are the people who didn't give a snow about fabulous countries as France or Sweden progressively changing into some Baghdad suburbs. And I can observe that: as immigrant -20 years ago- in awe for this culture and the people who created it, then today when I walk out, it feels like changing continent, also travel back in time, however not to the most glorious eras. Is almost like being transplanted with a dysfunctional heart when yours was perfectly healthy..
I am so sad about.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 24, 2015 12:32 AM |
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xerox said:
I actually read more foreign media, like The Economist, than Swedish media. Sadly though there is a lot of desinformation about these issues, especially among the racist people in Sweden who do not read "mainstream media" but instead lock themself inside the bubble of racist alternate media.
I wonder if you even got a bit of a human part left in you or if you have been brainwashed to the point when one is but a empty husk.
Your petty link has already been talked about if you bothered to read the thread. It is angled and allow me to remind you that it is not just Swedish media that is able to "toy" with the information flow by telling pure lies (which has been proven many times). Without alternate media people would continue to listen to the leftwinged journalists, who proclaims multiculture is awesome when they in reality life as far as possible AWAY from it.
xerox said:
So people should only be granted asylum if they're escaping from the right country and have the right culture? And here I thought Europe was done with racist policies.
No one should be granted asylum right now. Wake up and realise we have gone out of the stewing pot and into the fire.
Right now EVERY swedish person in the entire country got more than 500 000 kronor in debts. But since the young and the elderly can't work, not to mention immigrants not getting any jobs, you will end on the rather painful sum of 1.200.000 kronor in debt on each "working" person (please note that you must remove a large number of workers who are listed as working but in reality only works 1h a week.
The average Swedish household can spare around 30.000 kronor yearly. This means it will take about 34+ years to pay off the debts. The ruling generation has already doomed the next into a horrific scenario. One that will never be forgotten by the poor souls who gets struck down economically by all this and who did not vote for it.
Take this into account the next time you yap about racism and immigration, which you don't even know the true meaning of.
Sweden treats its own people worse than terrorists.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 24, 2015 12:33 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:37, 24 Sep 2015.
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Ebonheart said:
He's pretty much brainwashed by the Swedish media, so you can expect mindless drivel.
Ebonheart, please do not insult other HC members. Also, your general conduct toward other members has been provocative and demeaning lately. This is explicitly against the Code of Conduct, which is founded on respect for other posters. Please consider this your warning.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 24, 2015 12:51 AM |
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Since when did we invite the EU countries? Thought they only heard of countries like Germany or Sweden and went that path, since Egypt is in that post-Gaddafi time, the Arab countries are more or less part of ISIL and Russia only encourages Asad's regime. So yeah, I'd rather assume they "invited themselves in".
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2015 01:17 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:26, 24 Sep 2015.
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Salamandre said:
I don't know about that. For me the racists are the people who didn't give a snow about fabulous countries as France or Sweden progressively changing into some Baghdad suburbs. And I can observe that: as immigrant -20 years ago- in awe for this culture and the people who created it, then today when I walk out, it feels like changing continent, also travel back in time, however not to the most glorious eras. Is almost like being transplanted with a dysfunctional heart when yours was perfectly healthy..
I am so sad about.
Baghdad suburbs? Were are these? I spent most of my childhood and teenage years in those multicultural suburbs myself. Sure, there are issues with the prevalence of certain values that aren't exactly compatible with liberal ones but that's not really that much of a problem as long as people follow the law. And yes, a lot of people are unemployed, but the answer to that is not to let people die in Syria or drown in the sea, but to reform the labour and housing market so that more people can find a place to live and work. Once people are working and thus interacting with other citizens in the country, the integration process will come by itself, and in that, changes in everything from values to birth rates.
What Europe has is not an immigration crisis. If all Syrian refugees came to Europe that wouldn't even be 1% of Europe's population. Far from it. Rather, what Europe has is an integration crisis where the countries simply do not have much past experience with integrating immigrants from a very different cultural and economic background. As with any change, there will initially be people opposed to it and these will be fueled by legitimate questions, but in the long-term, when the syrian refugees have integrated to become a natural part of society, we'll look back upon this time and wonder what all the fuss was about.
It is also possible that we'll instead look back upon this time and have to explain to our children that we did not allow those who fled from war and drowned in the seas sanctuary, while a Europe that's closed in upon itself slowly stagnates in a demographic crisis that will inevitbly turn to an economic crisis which in turn will become a political crisis. I sincerely hope that I won't have to live in that world and explain to my children what we did that got us there.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 24, 2015 01:36 AM |
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Thread cleaned.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 24, 2015 11:23 AM |
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@Xerox (I don't want to flood the page in quotes)
Problem is:
There are Baghdad suburbs in Europe, there are Shari'a zones in both major and minor European cities, I remember being warned not to wander off in certain parts of London, no matter what there are groups that will eventually come together and form these ghettos, it's in everybody's interest to prevent this from happening, a radical solution is to not let anybody in anymore, but these zones are filled with an highly growing population, so it won't work in the long run.
I always said it, hate speech laws have been misapplied to allow this to happen, we have to disencourage this movement (but how to do it now is beyond me) and encourage them to live by our laws and to become at least more similar to us.
It's true that migrants are the size of 1% of Europe's population but they're mostly young men, they want to go to Germany, where people are old and don't make children, initially migrants will be a minority, but once the old people die and these migrants will take German wives and force them to become muslims in the worst case scenario, making them grow exponentially.
Regulating immigration isn't a bad thing, we need to protect our borders, not all of the migrants are refugees, as I always said, refugees must be given passage, the others need more scrutiny before letting them pass.
Our demographic crisis is due to the devaluation of marriage and the state's blind eye to the needs of the families, instead of encouraging couples to marry they give them civil unions, instead of giving time off to mothers they let them work full time, this way we have families that by sheer luck manage to have one child, and even more luck manage to raise a second child, this way there will be no demographic change, we don't need migrants, we need to let families have more than three children.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted September 24, 2015 01:45 PM |
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Hi everybody!
This thread caught my eye because rather unexpectedly my summer job this year came to be to write texts in an academic project about the EU’s regulation of immigration. In short, for example Sweden’s Alien Act is an implementation of EU directives and UN conventions that Sweden has ratified (which the EU legislators also follows).
While this thread is a fascinating read I’d like to add something from a perspective that is simply put missing - the fact that it is impossible to discuss immigration without considering this:
THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Link to the full text
Highlights of what the Nations of the World said:
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 14.
(1)Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Every state (inside or outside the EU) is obliged to give asylum to the refugees that have come or will come. It’s wrong to keep people in or send people to war, persecution and torture. Families are to be protected by society and states, which means that family members must be allowed to join each other in safe countries.
The current situation is a crisis because some countries are very reluctant to do this, for economic and/or ideological reasons – while those who offer asylum are under pressure in the current situation where a large influx of asylum seekers is concentrated to some countries. It’s a difficult situation for both finances and humans, especially in Greece but to some extent even in rich countries like Sweden. Since keeping asylum seekers for indefinite time in Maltese or Greek detention camps is hardly compatible with the human rights, spreading these persons across Europe is a reasonable solution to make giving asylum to these persons less difficult, for the persons and for the most pressured states.
It’s not in any way an impossible financial or cultural task for European nations to respect the Human Rights they have declared, even those in those countries who receive more asylum seekers than in previous years. While international law gives sovereign states the right to control borders and regulate immigration, the EU members (except UK, Ireland, Denmark) have decided to do most of this regulation together with the other states in the EU because they find it suitable due to the free movement within the EU. The voting on this week’s Tuesday was therefore perfectly fine.
Yesterday’s meeting about how to address the ongoing refugee crisis in the future resulted in several decisions: among other things there will be more border controls and centers for asylum seeking in so called “hot spots” along the migration routes. These centers are tasked with sorting asylum seekers from economical refugees and to organize transports into Europe or back to the state of origin. From a human rights perspective the placement of these centers is a major concern, because if they are placed behind the border controls there’s an obvious risk that the right to seek asylum is limited.
The meeting also decided to increase foreign aid to Africa and the Middle East, especially to UNHCR and the UN World Food Program in Syria and its neighbours in order to improve life in the refugee camps so that people don’t have to leave them. Lack of money has made the UN to reduce food and other necessities quite a lot, which is one cause to the migration. This foreign aid is, at least in my opinion, a good thing if it’s not
a) too temporary so that hunger returns and
b) too permanent so that the refugee camps will last for decades or generations.
In the long run I think it’s very important that the EU and other developed states increase various forms of foreign aid to improve security, economy, environment, stability and democracy so that people can live a good life anywhere and don’t have to emigrate.
It should also be noted that helping people in their home region is NOT conflicting with offering asylum, it’s possible to do both.
Nationalist parties are severely lacking in credibility when they stress the importance of helping persons abroad in troubled areas, because their economical program is that the money that is saved by reducing immigration should go to improvements for groups within the country. Every voter can get what they want: lower taxes, increased welfare spending, more of this and more of that. Voters unwilling to see other people suffer are soothed by promises about better foreign aid.
As an example, let’s have a look on what the SWEDEN DEMOCRATS suggests. In their latest budget motion the party writes that they want to make foreign aid more effective and follow the UN recommendation of giving 0,7 % of the GNI (Gross National Income) which may sound nice but since the governments for many years have allocated 1 % of the GNI, it does in fact means that the party intends to REDUCE FOREIGN AID BY 30 %.
Since everything is promised to everyone here (not there), and also since nationalists are skeptical to international cooperation which is essential for planning development, mediating peace between conflicting ethnical groups, sending peace keeping troops, or like in the EU, to reduce the risk of war by making countries mutually dependant on each other, the nationalist parties’ politics will result in that people will continue to become refugees, but since the parties also want the borders to be closed the refugees will have no safe place to go to.
Another topic that has been discussed in this thread is integration of immigrants. Interestingly, respect for Human Rights is together with a welcoming attitude and supportive politics also the keys to successful integration of newcomers. It works like this:
A
If the majority is nice to a new colleague, classmate, neighbour, that newcomer will be interested in becoming a part of your nice, cool, free and successful group and society. But if the majority avoids and blames the newcomer, he or she will lose interest in the majority and create a parallel society with other newcomers.
B
If the state welcomes the newcomer AND supports him or her through language training, validation of skills, and education for both adults and children, the newcomer will take part in the society’s economy, education system and working life, and thus contribute to the welfare state and meet the majority which will influence the newcomer. But if the state doesn’t give enough support, the immigrating engineers will become bus drivers and other newcomers will become unemployed.
C
Human rights are the foundation for different groups to get along with each other. The majority and the newcomers both have the right to follow their culture and religion and should mutually tolerate and respect each other. It must also be noted that for example freedom of religion is just one of the Human Rights, meaning that religious practices incompatible with other human rights can’t be allowed. Each person can only decide for himself or herself, not for strangers or family members, what religious and cultural practices he or she should follow.
Now, before anything from this thread is repeated again, let’s have a look on the following statements:
“Muslims don’t think their religion is compatible with human rights, and Muslims will become the majority and introduce Sharia”
Some demographic facts from Doug Saunders’ book The Myth of the Muslim Tide:
Europe’s population is 730 million people; of these are 20 million Muslims. Non-Muslim European women get 1,5 children (in Sweden 1,88) while Muslim European women get 2,2 children. (Compare this to secular Turkey (2,15) and Islamic Iran (1,7) who have quickly reduced fertility rates because of urbanization and education.) Muslims are expected to become 10 % of the European population in 2050, which is far from being a majority. Furthermore most European Muslims do not practice their religion, and most of them are sympathizing with the values present in the European states’ official policies (including Human Rights). Saunders also shows that poverty, not religion, is the cause of segregation.
As both kiryu133 and Xerox has said, even if integration isn’t flawless there is actually far fewer things that are problematic than what people think. The city I live in (Malmö, Sweden Democrats’ Worst Case Scenario) is contrary to what many believe full of secular Muslims that do everything they can to become as Swedish as possible, but without changing their names, forgetting where their families came from, or abandoning some religious traditions. I’ve heard several families saying they celebrate Id al-fitr and give their children Christmas presents. These Muslims are everywhere in any position in society and have always treated me very well.
The conclusion must be that Islamization will never happen, especially if the European states (and people) are welcoming and supporting to immigrants and increase various forms of foreign aid so that people can live a good life anywhere.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 24, 2015 02:01 PM |
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Locksley said:
The conclusion must be that Islamization will never happen, especially if the European states (and people) are welcoming and supporting to immigrants and increase various forms of foreign aid so that people can live a good life anywhere.
That's a big IF, one that certainly cannot be achieved easily.
Besides, this human rights declaration certainly won't stop countries like Hungary to reopen its borders, due to their "preserving integrity of EU countries" argument.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 24, 2015 02:58 PM |
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For some reason nobody even considers the possibility of infiltrated jihadists among the refugees/emigrants when this thing is discussed, like the whole topic could be only either some pink wonderland of love and tolerance or dark prophecy of Islamic hell in Europe. A very high number of the people coming from Syria, Aghanistan, Iraq, etc. have no documents. In the present chaos and lack of interest from many EU countries to register the people coming from Greece and Turkey, it's not very likely that the authenticity of the documents where available is checked very thoroughly. There is a very serious security aspect of the issue which seems to be omitted even on official level (at least in the public discussions). A few months back ISIS was "encouraging" the Libyan jihadists to mix themselves with the refugees going to Italy and once in Europe to start wreaking havoc, it will be incredibly stupid to assume that the same thought hasn't crossed their minds regarding Syria.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 24, 2015 03:02 PM |
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Many members of ISIS are coming to the Middle East FROM Europe, anyway. If you're afraid of potential jihadists, they already exist among EU citizens.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 24, 2015 03:13 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:14, 24 Sep 2015.
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The difference is that most of the suspected jihadists in Europe are under surveillance because they are, you know, in the public registries. Nothing like that when you have thousands of people coming from the outside with little to no means to tell who they really are. "Fear" is a wrong word here, this is a very basic precaution that nobody sane would object against in other circumstances but now it doesn't even seem to get enough attention.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 24, 2015 03:14 PM |
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Just because there's a pool of recruits from Europe doesn't counter the point that there is almost a certainty that among the millions of refugees there's members of radical organisations with the intent of causing chaos (unless their mentally handicapped and didn't take advantage of this situation, which I sincerely doubt).
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2015 03:17 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:19, 24 Sep 2015.
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artu said:
If you're afraid of potential jihadists, they already exist among EU citizens.
So lets disregard the ones that take advantage of this migration to infiltrate themselves and raise terror. You heard it folks.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 24, 2015 03:36 PM |
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No, I obviously didnt suggest to disregard anything. What I mean is, if El Kaide or ISIS or any other organization decides to plan an attack inside European borders, they are very capable of doing it any time they want. They can use EU citizen members or easily finance a secret entry with fake passports and everything. The refugee problem and a potential attack are not as interlinked as they seem in the first place.
That being said, security measures will naturally be taken but "potential jihadists" is not a very logical reason to abandon millions of people all together. Potential jihadists are everwhere.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 24, 2015 03:44 PM |
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Zenofex said:
For some reason nobody even considers the possibility of infiltrated jihadists among the refugees/emigrants when this thing is discussed, like the whole topic could be only either some pink wonderland of love and tolerance or dark prophecy of Islamic hell in Europe.
EnergyZ said:
It is possible that some of them are extremists. Simply put, if they don't meet expectations, they may start blowing things up.
You were saying...?
Anyway, it is always a possibility. Though in that case, they'd have to contact someone for equipment, or even to establish secret bases, both of which require time and money.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 24, 2015 08:10 PM |
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artu said:
No, I obviously didnt suggest to disregard anything. What I mean is, if El Kaide or ISIS or any other organization decides to plan an attack inside European borders, they are very capable of doing it any time they want. They can use EU citizen members or easily finance a secret entry with fake passports and everything. The refugee problem and a potential attack are not as interlinked as they seem in the first place.
That being said, security measures will naturally be taken but "potential jihadists" is not a very logical reason to abandon millions of people all together. Potential jihadists are everwhere.
That's not the point. Of course some way should be found to help the refugees. Currently however, on EU level there is literally zero activity and discussion on how the external borders of the union should be secured against such infiltrations and all you can hear is "we should spread these N thousand people between the member states" while many of these N thousand people are more or less anonymous. Basically you tell member X to accept, say, 5000 people who come from a war zone within its borders but otherwise you can't guarantee that you're not actually asking member X to import terrorists along with the real refugees. If even one of those 5000 people decides to blow himself up along with some innocents in Allah's name, the effect on the public opinion will be catastrophic and the attitude toward the refugees can only get worse. Neither the host country, nor the refugees benefit from lack of control in this regard.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 24, 2015 08:23 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Zenofex said:
For some reason nobody even considers the possibility of infiltrated jihadists among the refugees/emigrants when this thing is discussed, like the whole topic could be only either some pink wonderland of love and tolerance or dark prophecy of Islamic hell in Europe.
EnergyZ said:
It is possible that some of them are extremists. Simply put, if they don't meet expectations, they may start blowing things up.
You were saying...?
Anyway, it is always a possibility. Though in that case, they'd have to contact someone for equipment, or even to establish secret bases, both of which require time and money.
That's the reason why somebody sent weapons disguised as humanitarian aid, they're organized, quite efficiently actually.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2015 08:27 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 20:32, 24 Sep 2015.
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Zenofex said:
For some reason nobody even considers the possibility of infiltrated jihadists among the refugees/emigrants when this thing is discussed
everyone i've seen discuss the exodus, has brought this up. both from news media everywhere, and from people here on HC, so i don't know how in the heck you get the idea that "nobody even considers the possibility"... 
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This thread is pages long: 
