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Heroes Community > MapHaven Guild > Thread: [H3] The Mapmaker's Thread
Thread: [H3] The Mapmaker's Thread This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 21, 2016 02:39 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 02:41, 21 May 2016.

I have a doubt about the very high levels, I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask it but I'm pretty sure you are the guys I should ask it.
An hero normally starts with 5 or 6 primary skills and will gain one with each level. By my accounts that means he can gain around 506 prims before they turn to 0.
So, as I see it if I gave some player an hero of level 800 or more I'm in fact making sure this hero can't gain any prims and is a peace of cake to beat. What am I missing?

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Promising
Known Hero
posted May 21, 2016 03:48 AM

Ah I understand!

Primary stats will overflow at 128 and become negative (-127 if I recall correctly). Stats progression depends a lot based on the class of the hero, say Death Knight v. Necromancer. The exact details can be found in Tribute to Strategists in terms of percentage.

In order to get around this problem, you need to test your high level hero to determine around what number his stats wind up after the levelling. For example, a level 6424 Battle Mage will typically have around 60 ~ 70 in all primary skills whereas a level 6424 Overlord will have around -50 to primary skills as I recall.

For the Battle Mage, you can get him 99 stats by starting him with 30~40 primary stats. For Overlords it's more difficult, you will need to give them access to an Event or Pandora's Box as well as give them around 50 stats to start with.

The starting primary stats will never be exactly the same however they will typically in the same range [see above] so you can test around and get them to where you want. Just "reload/new game" enough times to avoid outlying surprises but around 10~15 is the range of difference from highest/lowest from my testing.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 21, 2016 04:23 AM

Thx, I didn't knew they turned negative.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 04, 2016 02:49 AM

I have asked this before and I still didn't got an awser but I'm sure someone that reads this thread knows, it so lets try: can AI dismiss useless heroes? If I put an hero with no prims or army stand-still in an unreachable place just as a filler, can AI dismiss it?

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted June 04, 2016 07:55 AM
Edited by Biobob at 10:30, 05 Jun 2016.

While I don't have a definitive answer, From personal experience, I'm  99% sure that Ai (at least in pure SoD) does never dismiss heroes. If that was not the case, things like these prison hero chains would never work. But well, I don't know the internals, so I could be wrong.

Greets

PS: New Guides coming soon
____________
Maps
The Mapmaker's Thread

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 04, 2016 10:16 AM

Thx

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted June 04, 2016 07:38 PM
Edited by Biobob at 00:49, 11 Jun 2016.

A hole guide about water

Let's continue our series about lesser known tricks that can be done in the editor. Today, we won't need the WoG editor, the SoD one will do just fine!

Biobob said:

A hole guide about water

You probably noticed that heroes can move differently with water walk and using a boat, for example, sometimes you cannot move diagonally when on water. But how exactly does this work? Let's test it out.

First: Water walk diagonally over different scenarios:



Let's compare this with movement in a boat:



So, we can conlude that a hero in a boat is not able to move diagonally across borderlines between different ground types! The only allowed diagonal movement is water+water!

A more interesting case is given by border gates: A hero who is water walking will not be able to get across (there is an explanation to this to make it more memorable: A water walking hero practically still moves on the 'layer' on which he was before (the layers being Land->water->rock), so he cannot pass the gate on water, which is not on his layer):



A hero in a boat can get across easily:



Vice versa, a hero travelling by boat cannot land on a garrison, while the water walking hero can pass:



Speaking of boats, which get's us to our next topic: How does summoning boats work exactly?

First of all, a boat can be summoned on a tile even when the tile is not able to be reached by a hero:



Second, when a boat is summoned and there are boats in existence already, the boat summoned will be the closest one.



Third, When a boat on the 'to-be-summoned-on' tile already exists, the boat moved will be the boat on that tile (since it is the closest one) and will move to the next allowed location in order (not being moved is no option):



But how to predict where a boat will be summoned? Follow this graphic:



Boats are summoned starting from top, continuing in a clockwise manner

For adventure map shipyards, there is a more complicated pattern:



While a rule is hard to be gotten into words in a short sentence, the pattern can be remembered easily: Starting from middle row, move from outer to inner, and from left to right. After middle follows lower row, then upper row.

Keep in mind, that even if you try to do some trickery with the WoG editor and make the shipyard only 1 tile in size and making the rest water, the same pattern still applies (the boat placing is calculated from the enter tile, everything else is ignored):



Now, for town shipyards, an interesting behavior can be observed:



The boats are summoned two rows away from the town. Of course this makes sense, as normally town entrances are not blocked off by water

The summoning order looks like this:



There are no other tiles on which boats can be summoned! If both tiles are blocked off, the shipyard will be locked in the town:



Before moving on, let's talk about the hole!
Holes have a pretty unique standing in heroes 3, as they have their own mechanics. Always remember that if the grail is placed on a hole, it can't be dug out

Holes can also be used to hide things. While in WoG editor, that would be easy, I don't consider it to be fair to hide things using the WoG editor in SoD maps. Luckily, there is one hole found in the subterranean menu of the editor:



This hole is bugged and the flag for 'part of ground' is not set by SoD means! This means it can be used to hide things. Look at this example:



Holes can also be used to hinder wandering heroes. You probably know that a hero going by boat cannot land on holes nor events:



Of course, using water walk, it is no problem:



Now it will get more interesting: Look at this scenario:



If the hero tries to summon a boat here, it doesn't work:



This leads us to the conclusion, that Boats cannot be summoned on holes nor events. However, the adventure map shipyard does not follow this rule:



It also summons boats on holes:



The adventure map shipyard places boats on holes and events.

But wait, let's investigate this even further; take a look at this scenario. I have marked the "spawning order" for boats, which seems to work as predicted:



Now, what if I told you this:
Wheter a tile is a possible boat spawning point is determined at map start.

In our scenario, the tile to the right of the shipyard is unblocked at the start; what if I block it using a hero?



Since the tile is a valid spawning point, the game wants to summon a boat here, but the tile is already taken.

It also works in the other direction. Look at this scenario, all seems fine:



If we free the hero, a boat can still be summoned (if you wonder how to place a prison on water, keep on reading!), since the tile was taken at the beginning of the map:



The same applies if the hero moves away:



However, if the hero leaves the tile and we block the other tile, no more boats can be summoned (as predicted by now):



The same applies to floatsom, empty boats, etc. If the tile is taken at the beginning of a map, there won't be a boat summoned there.

Also, one might ask, what happens when a hero is moving on a tile where a event stood, before? Like in this scenario:



If a hero now water walks on this tile and stops because of an ambush in the event, still, no boat can be built. (If you wonder how to fight a creature ambush event when water walking, change to auto combat! There is no battlefield for heroes walking on water, so game will crash if you don't.



Look at this scenario again! While boat building is a simple mechanic (can be summarized into: Every shipyard has ONE spawning point, not more), boat summoning is more interesting.



Like we said before, since there is an event here, we can't summon a boat:



However, if we clear the event (remember, as said above: When water walking, you need auto combat on to resolve ambushes in water):



We can now summon a boat! The event was resolved, so the tile is no longer blocked!



Shipyards have ONE fixed building point. If that is blocked, no boat can be summoned. Summon boat is more flexible, always checking wheter the to be summoned on tile is blocked or not

To round it up, take this information. The town shipyard also does not care about holes



(or events)



By amount of restrictions, this means

Summon Boat<Adventure Map Shipyard=Town Shipyard

Remember that in a case of emergency, you can always destroy a boat by dismissing a hero inside of it:



One more bit of information:
If a boat has been summoned on an event tile by a shipyard, the event won't trigger upon first entering the boat. It will trigger however once the tile is visited again.



And similar to that:
Wandering creature battles are not triggered upon entering a boat. The will only aggro if after the first step taken on water, they are still in reach.



Also, I promised to teach you how to put a prison on water!

wOg Trick eight: Putting anything anywhere

You probably noticed that not all objects can be put anywhere you want (like water obstacles, they can be only placed on water). Likewise, a prison will not be able to be placed on water. However, lets check the Advanced Properties of the prison! To the right of the window, you can check the allowed terrains for the object. By default, a prison cannot be put on water:



Check the 'water' box:



And now the prison can be put on water:



Also out of the same category: How to put objects on rock (unpassable terrain):



For this, it must be fully passable and not a part of ground:



After that procedure you can place the object. If you want to, you can change the passability back after setting the object on the rock as shown above:



(An alternative to the above method would be to enable 'Place objects anywhere' in the editor, as pointed out by RoseKavalier. I suggest however to not leave it on all the time, so you dont screw up accidently. It can be switched on and off swiftly anyway.)


(Property of RoseKavalier)

By placing teleporters there (or just setting the hero there in the editor), you can even set a hero 'on the rocks'. He won't be able to move, however:



Nice! You are one step closer to becoming a master mapmaker!



Greets
____________
Maps
The Mapmaker's Thread

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 04, 2016 08:36 PM

Wow, thx. Didn't knew half of these.

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potmdehex
potmdehex


Known Hero
professional ERM™ scripter
posted June 04, 2016 09:27 PM

Great post.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted June 05, 2016 10:04 AM
Edited by Biobob at 23:40, 09 Jun 2016.

A guide about hiding the truth

Today we will take a look at the SoD map editor's capabilities in terms of hiding paths and objects! It is a crucial part of any single player map, as it forces the player to stay avert even when not in combat!

Biobob said:

How to hide things in SoD

Take a look at this structure:



When we turn on the passability, we learn that this path is indeed able to be traveled through:



Let's learn how to make such a structure:

First: The tools

Most sprites in the game are not able to hide things very well, because the passability is set very strictly, meaning you'll end up blocking your path in the end. Luckily, there are some that can be used with great efficiency!

Sand Tab Objects



The sand tab is the bread and butter of the hiding process, it contains some of the most useful sprites there are (including the infamous avlplm20.def which goes to the left and upwards in a big way). Most of the time, these objects are used as the baseline, first because they cover a big area, second because most people know abut them and get cautious once they see sand objects, which is why we cover them with grass ground later!

.def list:
avlplm20.def
avlplm30.def
avlplm50.def
avlxds05.def
avlmtds4.def
avlxds03.def
avlmtds3.def


Swamp Tab Objects



This tab also holds some very special objects: The avlswtr5.def covers a diagonal line, the avlswtr9.def closes up from the bottom. Also, these objects look quite unsuspicious, making them perfect for our project!

.def list:
avlmtsw3.def
avlswtr0.def
avlswt06.def
avlswtr1.def
avlswtr4.def
avlswtr3.def
avlswtr5.def
avlswtr9.def
avlwlw10.def


Dirt Tab Objects



Another one of the utility tabs: It's objetcs blend into every environment easily, the avlmtdr7.def has it's most right upper tile passable, which is incredible!

.def list:
avlmtdr7.def
avlxdt03.def
avlxdt02.def
avlxdt00.def
avlxdt06.def
avlxdt10.def
avlxdt08.def
avlxdt11.def
avltr2d0.def
avlrd02.def


Grass Tab Objects



This tab offers not so much many more new hiding objetcs, but two particular, highly important çover-up' items! The avlct4g0.def and avlct6g0.def cover up the original ground type and make it a rugged green, which blends in nicely with all the hiding objects!

.def list:
avlxgr02.def
avlwlw10.def
avlmtgr2.def
avlmtgr3.def
avlmtgr4.def
avlct4g0.def
avlct6g0.def
avllk1g0.def
avlsh1g0.def
avltr2d0.def
avlxgr01.def


Lava Tab Objects



This is a very limited tab, but with great might. Everyone knows the avlvol50.def (the noobs toll as I call it ), the avlmtvo2.def is much more interesting, as that one passable tile is not known by all!

.def list:
avlmtvo2.def
avlvol50.def
avlvol20.def
avlvol30.def


Rough Tab Objects



These are not the most useful, but they can come in handy in some situations. Don't expect too much however...

.def list:
avlbuzr0.def
avlr12r0.def
avlr10r0.def
avlxro01.def
avlr02r0.def
avlr13r0.def
avlr11r0.def
avlct1r0.def
avltrro0.def
avllk1r.def


Subterranean and Snow Tab Objects



These are the least useful. Both tabs contain close to no usable objects...

.def list:
avlr02u0.def
avlr01u0.def
avlr11u0.def
avlstg60.def
avlr2sn0.def
avlmtsn1.def
avlmtsn3.def


Creature Dwellings and other Objects

There are numerous usable ones in this category, but since they require the entrance to be unblocked, they are a little less useful than the simple decoration sprites. These are the most important ones:




The actual thing: The hiding process

Start by roughly lining out the way you want to hide (and putting some specific objects if you like):



Next, put the holy grail of hiding paths over the way: avlplm20.def. This is already quite good:



Now, throw out the big guns! All these bugged sprites will help greatly in hiding your stuff:



Now, fill the area up with all the other hiding objects:



This looks very good now. All that is left is making the area look natural (in this example, some volcanic area would fit to the left, to make them not stand out too much). However, what if we were working on snow here?



All of a sudden it looks way worse! Luckily, we've got avlct4g0.def and avlct6g0.def to cover it up:



Again: Always remember to make the thing blend in as a whole! If you always use the same objects to decorate your lands and then once throw in a stunning place like this, people will get suspicious (but that can be a good thing).

Also, remember that your hidden path will be visible in the minimap:



If you don't want that, you can use the methods we've learned before. I don't do that however, as I consider it a little unfair (well, it depends on the situation).

You can make the path even harder to see by placing an object in the way of it. Look at this. Normally a hero is easily able to ride through. This can lead to the path being accidently discovered when hovering over:



However, if we set a sign post, it wont be as clear:



The hero now needs to visit the sign post before moving on:



You can also use ressources artifacts, etc. for this, but keep in mind that they can be spotted in the 'view world screen':

Sign post is invisible:



But ressource can be seen (tiny gold image):



Congratulation! You've built your first jungle

Some eye candy

Here are some structures which I like the most. In all of these, you CAN spot both objects, but you'll need to know them VERY well!

Marletto Tower + Stoic Watchman:



Icy Mountain + Ladybird of Luck:



Magic Forest + Keymasters Tent:



Magic Spring + Torso of Legion:



School of Magic + Talisman of Mana:



Dragon Utopia + Cape of Velocity + Ring of infinite gems:



These are just some nice ones to get you started. There are many more however!

Finally, keep in mind that towns are very nice to hide things as well I'll let your creativity flow on that!




Greets
____________
Maps
The Mapmaker's Thread

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 05, 2016 11:06 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 11:17, 05 Jun 2016.

Let me repeat my previous words: wow.
When playing I kind of hate all of these tricks but when I'm making a map I almost always end up creating some collateral task that makes use of them.

P.S. I know this is a quite advanced guide but maybe an edit to show the "hide resource to hide path" trick would look nice, too.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 05, 2016 11:34 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 11:35, 05 Jun 2016.

Basic stuff there, nice. Don't forget to add about hidden signs (or wells, anything which can be passed on) at the beginning of the hidden path, so the player doesn't see the path when hovering the mouse on.


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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted June 05, 2016 11:41 AM

I edited it in just as you were writing this

Thanks anyway! Got another guide you'd like to see? I have much free time today...

Greets

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 05, 2016 11:44 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 11:47, 05 Jun 2016.

There are so many combinations possible, a pure joy. After the sign to move on, you can place hidden water then on next square a flotsam/water chest, so water walk will not work, only summon boat. And then, on the other side, you could place an event, so the boat can't land thus the player has to pick the flotsam, return, scuttle the boat then cast water walk.

Sure this is annoying to solve during the game so is not used a lot, but it shows the potential of the best Heroes game editor.
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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted June 05, 2016 12:39 PM
Edited by Biobob at 22:09, 07 Jun 2016.

Oh yes, I love that topic

Adventure map puzzles hold an own fascination for me, because, as you said, there are also countless possibilities to be seen! This is one of my mroe recent contraptions. It servers as a puzzle and shortcut:



Can you solve it? You have one hero with water walk and expert summon boat on lower right isle and one hero with expert summon boat on leftmost isle! All heroes have expert water, expert wisdom but no scholar

Download
~Working in Age~ v1.0

Greets

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 05, 2016 04:06 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 16:15, 05 Jun 2016.

bloodsucker said:
P.S. I know this is a quite advanced guide but maybe an edit to show the "hide resource to hide path" trick would look nice, too.

So, I didn't knew half of the trick.

Salamandre said:
Sure this is annoying to solve during the game so is not used a lot, but it shows the potential of the best Heroes game editor.

I guess many people would consider your "potential" a weakness of the editor (same discussion you had some days ago about split Tactic).
"Map editor allows for absurd exploits that turn many maps unplayable" - Noobs Journal

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 05, 2016 04:15 PM

Well, no. There were some objects also in H2 editor which allowed for creative passability, they just expanded them.


Anyway, is how you told it: when you play, you are quite annoyed to solve puzzles of this style, but when you design maps, you feel much joy in experimenting with the 2 thousand objects.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 05, 2016 04:18 PM

bloodsucker said:

"Map editor allows for absurd exploits that turn many maps unplayable" - Noobs Journal


Nope, from what i've seen, some maps unplayable because editor things are due to lazy or inexperienced mapmakers, not enough testing.

like a locked shipyard, no summon boat spell, then all the passability errors, where something supposed to be reachable isn't.  
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All my Era II mods

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 05, 2016 04:25 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 17:27, 05 Jun 2016.

@Biobob I don't know how this can be explored but since you asked for sugestions I just recently learned about upgraded stacks and obstacles being part of the hex where the battle takes place. Of course I knew I could replay the battle with the same configuration but from a player's point of view you never think about it (except when you need it) but as a mapmaker it may play an invaluable roll.

@SalamandreYou don't get me. First time I tried one of your maps without cheating it was christmas and we were both on-line so you kept give me tips. I didn't even had a basic notion about how this kind of maps work. Battles that need puzzled solutions to be won were not a part of my understanding*, even today most of my intrincate WoG strategies have but one objective, build a gigantic army so I can play in God mode. Finding hidden piles of wood on the ground, trying water walk or summon boat on what looks like grass weren't part of how I understood the game. At that time those could be my words.
Basicly, if someone is playing the game by himself without participating in player's communities and then downloads one of the maps you gave a 10 in Maps4Heroes he is going to have a surprise.

Notice I'm not complainning, I take more pleasure with the game the better I understand and learn to circunvent this obstacles and I think they add interess to the game.

*Meaning, I would ask myself how to match/overpower their army and for how long would will I have to wait untill I'm strong enouch instead of how do I use this specific terrain, lure tactics or this creature special hability to win the battle.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted June 05, 2016 04:38 PM
Edited by Biobob at 11:10, 10 Jun 2016.

Well, basically every to you need for that is in this thread already  you need h3combatterrain to check for favorable battlefield tiles and h3rechner to see whether a wandering stack has upgraded creatures!

A nice bit of information for players: If you fight a wandering stack with an upgraded unit, the upgraded unit will no longer be upgraded should you abandon the battle, then engage again.

Edit: I tested this and found out that it does not work anymore, which is strange; I'm 100% sure this worked at some point...

If I can think of a bit more information on that matter, I'll write it up

Greets
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Maps
The Mapmaker's Thread

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