|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
posted July 20, 2016 10:23 PM |
|
Edited by frostysh at 22:28, 20 Jul 2016.
|
JollyJoker
+1 For the immigration problems roots (in France i.e.), obviously "the colonial-time connections" play a great role there, IMHO.
+1 For a ghettos problem, the more hardcore life for a human the more easily this individual can be recruited by radicals. IMHO.
Salamandre said:
Salamandre
Saying in 2016 that there is absolutely no problem with Islam world wide is sign of mental sclerosis or extreme blindness. Even if we can argue ad-aeternam about islam problems in the west -does it or doesn't trigger terrorism and we will never agree on that, why do you skip every time Islam's nature as it is expressed in Islamic countries, where it is supposed to shine and show its true face?
Nonsense and truth both there in the post, IMHO.
First – Islam has a different story than Christianity, regardless of the similar things in both religions .
But the the radicalism and terrorism this is are common thing for … human civilization, the examples of MADNESS in XX c. A.D. at the Europe is well-known (there was nationalism/nazi Holocost, etc..), on the East there was communistic party that wiped out ~1/4 of their own folks...
If we can it compare to the Islam-radical-Terrorist stuff – obviously, The all Islamic-radicals together killed much more less than European radicals. Even if we will metnioned that fact the Arab-radical' Islamic stuff is almost obsolete for XX/XXI c...
Is this make any sense for you?
Salamandre said:
In the absolute majority of Islamic countries there are no civil liberties, no freedom of speech, no criticism of the religion allowed -apostasy = death, no minorities rights. Conflicts occur due to clash of interests- ideological mostly. In most of the Muslim countries it looks as if ideological interests have come in forefront of all the clashes. Almost everywhere there is a rising demand for more strict adherence to the archaic rules and customs and less or no emphasis on health, education, sanitation, franchise, agriculture, industry etc.
Indeed Islamic countries is still more totalitarian than their European brothers and sisters, but if you look again on the history of XX century, you will that the totalitarianism of the Islamic countries all together will not even stand near a Nazis or Comm'.Party madness...
Anyway, I think they will change in time, but obviously making a “war against Islam” will freeze the progress of civil right in Arabic countries.
Ebonheart said:
Ebonheart
I think a summary of this thread would be the following:
Left: Immigration has a few bad sides but the majority of the newcomers will boost the country at the cost of a few terror attacks that can't be prevented anyway and it's not done after religion. Anyone who says otherwise is a cold hearted b*****d and a liar.
Right: Immigration is a calamity apart from a very few who comes actually earning their keep. Religion and culture plays a tremendous role in the peace and security of thecountry and must thus be expelled or integrated to the religion/culture of the new country. Anyone who deny these facts are a hypocrite and a fanatic.
Am I getting any close here or?
I think the summary of this thread mus be next: do not make a hysteria after the terrorist attacks going more nasty than it is. Do not make a “redemption” on the Muslims and Islam, this will helps terr. org. like ISSI instead...
The radicals of Europe will grows after the terr. acts – this will produce a more … problems, obviously this thing a well-known for terr. acts organizators.
To solve a terror problem, you need attack it's roots, not a branches or the a whole loan (I hope this is means a ground with grass near a house  )..
Corribus said:
The comparison to inner city youth in US cities isn't a fantastic one, JJ. Yes, there are gangs, poverty, and a lot of violent crime associated with that, but generally the violence is confined to those areas. Gang members in LA, Chicago, and so forth are not strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up busses filled with random (affluent, white) people. They are killing each other in droves, yes, and innocent people are felled as collateral damage (kids shot through walls by stray bullets, say). But the nature of the violence and who its targeted against speaks a lot about the different motivations and causes. We do have people here in the US going into nightclubs and spraying bullets around, but they aren't inner city African Americans.
Corribus – you have a low understanding of what actually moves the terrorist to make a terror.... You have a low understanding of what actually using the organization like ISIS in their wars.
The main weapon of this organizations – is an IDEA. The idea of making a “revenge for suffering” they actually connected it's with a “Jihad” terminology and religion of Islam.
So answer for yourself on the next question: “If you a terrorist act organizer, where the recruiting of actually “bombers” is more easy for you, in the rich and law-stable areas, where the most of folks have a good life quality, or in the poor areas where the most of folks hate anythings that living better than their hardcore-life, especially they hate the governments itself.. “
Or you think that terr. org. is stupid, and do not know a basics of a propaganda and stuff? O_o
artu
+1 - for “you can easily find a theological premise for it, if you search for a theological premise”, this is obviously make a sense for me.
+1 for Coran is a hell diverse stuff. And can exploited either by GreenPeace or ISIS....
+1 for a “Muhamed's Ali Islam” and the ISIS Islam – it is a hell different things .
+1 “the Nice attack was done by a Tunisian on French’s independence day”, hmm interesting...
-1 – IMHO, about the “Afghanistan Women's” picture – this is looks like a bloody-hell propaganda of a Soviet Union and stuff... The Afghanistan was hell-hole in the 60th, and the Afghanistan is a hell-hole nowadays.
ANYWAY I am agree about the Uncle Sam influence on radicals there, this is obviously playing a big role in what the hell happens nowadays. 
Where you get this picture, is there any source ???
+1 I am agree about 19th , century A. D. hardcore-industrializations... it's begins from Europe/US and then spreading over Earth, making a drastically changing in the life of most peoples on the Earth. And hell yes after “conservation of Islam in X c. A.D. “ the Arabic countries have a much high resistance to the changes.
+1 For an “interesting” (I mean horrible..) event in the Isthanbul Airport, and +1 again for a throwing the stone into Elodin's side about “spineless West Great Nation Rulers” whawhahhaha.
+1 For position that make an idiotic “cultural/nation/race/bla-bla” clash idea busted, of course the “leftists” is much more connected to the planet Earth itself , than their blood-brothers-and-sister from a right idio..logy, but Anyway, I do not think that they are better than right nonsense, I think they also are nonsense  ... IMHO.
Elodin said:
Elodin
No, the danger is denying Islamic terror has something to do with Islam. Islamic terror is a world-wide problem. Islamic terrorists are not poor people who have been oppressed by straight white protestant males. They are people driven by a desire to please Allah. Some are poor, some are middle class, some are rich.
When they yell the phrase commonly translated "God is great" they are saying , "Allah is the only god and because you do not worship him now you die." Denying Islamic terror has a religious motivation is not just wrong, it is dangerous.
There is little hope for France or the rest of the West if it does not even understand the enemy it faces.
Wow, I always thought that “Global Problems” it is a problems of which dying a millions year-by year, and billions suffer...
Anyway it is hard to comment your, mr. Elodin, RADICAL nonsense without a , hmm, you know, a bit of smile  . . .
I think you are an ideal translator, mr. Elodin! I have a perfect idea for – go to the Middle East, and get a translator of Islam job! There you will a life, ho it is looks like... Perhaps this is will a quite-different from your , sweet chair, peaceful, life that overwhelming with a sun-shining paladins, that eating, oops, I am sorry, again memorizing a “Siege of el Maarra” fact.., , paladins that fighting a barbarous Arabic-Islamic monsters.
More, even more religious hate, more and more … mr. Elodin, this is actually a great way of thing..
Of course own life my facts, the historical facts, the statistical data that is light upped by JollyJoker and artu is make no sense for you..
Perhaps would be a better for you, just too stay away of a real life? Just keep looking at “Camelot cartoons” with a sun-shining paladins, just keep playing in the “Call of Duty” or “Heroes...” for a Heaven faction ofc., , … Wow, this is looks like a paradise for me , I want this too ...! . I am joking.
Because the real life. Is a … , I do not know, I never saw it for myself , whahahhaha, , but somebody tolds me that the peoples like you , mr Elodin, usually showing their most dark sides when they confront a real life....
Anyway, the posts of artu and artu is much more closer to a … , idk, to the reality then your nonsense mr. Elodin, and it's a hell more interesting to read.
+1 IMHO to artu – for a good historical example and a good picture, that actually making a good questions about “religion tolerance” by a Christians folks, anyway that was a long before the XX c. A.D. but it is good to remember and bust the radical-mythology-nonsense that the posts of mr. Elodin have.
BUT where exactly is a source of this map?
Neraus -
Om.... An Another Camelot-fan. . I am joking.
Your “bunch of knights” can create a few towns in the “Holy Land”, so obviously there was hundreds thousands “knights, pilgrims, and the other stuff”...
Quote:
The armies traveled eastward by land to Byzantium where they received a welcome from the Emperor. The combined force including non-combatants may have contained as many as 100,000 people. The army, mostly French and Norman knights under baronial leadership, pledged to restore lost territories to the empire and marched south through Anatolia. The crusaders besieged Antioch, massacring the inhabitants and pillaging the city.
Crusade
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 05:45 AM |
|
|
It turns out the truck driver had been planning the attack since last year in collusion with others. Photos of the 2015 Independance day celebration were on his phone.
Meanwhile in Germany another terror attack in Munice carried out by an 18 year old Iranian-German citizen who ended up shooting himself after the attack. Authorities are looking for possibly 3 more suspects.
____________
Revelation
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 05:52 AM |
|
|
I'm supposed to go to France in November. I'm considering cancelling my plans. I don't want to be anywhere near Europe right now.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 06:16 AM |
|
|
That would be unwise. The best thing you can do about terrorism is ignore it. The media likes to blow up stories even more than terrorists like to blow up people, but the proper thing to do is to look at the statistics.
For example, the murder rate in France is a fifth of that of the US, and yet I doubt you're worried about getting murdered at home.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 06:17 AM |
|
|
Bad blood with France's colonial history and its 1960s Algerian War doesn't help anything, but the current clash of cultures is more about current events than it is about any skeletons from the past haunting the present. Radicalized Muslims aren't vindictive historians running around with an Amazon Kindle in one hand and a gun in the other. They're people being exposed and beguiled by contemporary hate material, and contemporary hate material isn't limited to a particular country. It's directed towards ideas. Germany was a fascist power, and European fascism and Middle Eastern autocracy were, in a loose sense, allies. What does any of that mean to a 20-some-year-old that's infatuated by IS?
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 07:09 AM |
|
|
mvassilev said:
That would be unwise. The best thing you can do about terrorism is ignore it. The media likes to blow up stories even more than terrorists like to blow up people, but the proper thing to do is to look at the statistics.
For example, the murder rate in France is a fifth of that of the US, and yet I doubt you're worried about getting murdered at home.
You're right. The truth is, I don't feel like going because it's a long ass way away.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 07:26 AM |
|
|
And even at its best, it's only France. When I visited several years ago, I observed that the primary activities of its residents were "selling overpriced items to tourists, washing windows/lamp posts, begging, and going on strike".
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 09:20 AM |
|
|
mvassilev said:
That would be unwise. The best thing you can do about terrorism is ignore it. The media likes to blow up stories even more than terrorists like to blow up people, but the proper thing to do is to look at the statistics.
For example, the murder rate in France is a fifth of that of the US, and yet I doubt you're worried about getting murdered at home.
Boith right and wrong. Yes it is true that the media flares things up to the extreme. However, the amnount of attacks have increased so it would at least be wise to avoid any major cities and stay on the countryside. You can't really avoid the airports though.
If I were you Corribus, I would only travel if it meant not going to a very crowded place/city. After all, it is dumb to take your chances when you don't need to.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 11:22 AM |
|
|
Blizzardboy said:
Bad blood with France's colonial history and its 1960s Algerian War doesn't help anything, but the current clash of cultures is more about current events than it is about any skeletons from the past haunting the present. Radicalized Muslims aren't vindictive historians running around with an Amazon Kindle in one hand and a gun in the other. They're people being exposed and beguiled by contemporary hate material, and contemporary hate material isn't limited to a particular country. It's directed towards ideas. Germany was a fascist power, and European fascism and Middle Eastern autocracy were, in a loose sense, allies. What does any of that mean to a 20-some-year-old that's infatuated by IS?
Well, historical events wouldn't directly affect a 20 year-old like that but they certainly mark the nature of relationship between the immigrants from ex-colonies and local Europeans, and the nature of that relationship is not insignificant, it will certainly help a young angry man to get lured into ISIS propaganda much easier. (Just think of radical African-American movements in the U.S. and the slavery rhetoric.) But as I already said, the real motivator is the current conflict in the Middle-East.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 03:31 PM |
|
|
The colonial aspect is a humbug, part of the long list of possible smoky and paltry excuses, invented by islamo-liberals who can't swallow that their multi cultural utopia is not only a fail, but a disaster. The history is made by successive conquests and colonizations, my country was colonized by romans then by turks and I don't dream of blowing artu or Neraus. Look at how it looks Europe today, the most welcoming and tolerant world wide area inspires now fear and resentment.
Islam pisses natives wherever it spreads, like an illness, Italy, Spain, Germany, US, Russia, and I can continue the list with 100% of the immigration targets. Then terrorists origins the most often have nothing to do with former colonies, also they usually are very precise and vocals about what triggers them, they want a world-wide Islamic state, we try to stop them, they retaliate.
What do the righteous here suggest, that we let ISIS conquer and strengthens its positions until it becomes a physical country?
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 03:49 PM |
|
|
|
Can't see much determination to fight ISIS from any of the wannabe anti-terrorist countries and the reason certainly is not liberalism.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 04:04 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 16:06, 23 Jul 2016.
|
Of course, the dominant reason isn't national history at the moment, but without repeating the same details here, not every country has the same frequency of attacks. I never heard of a suicide attack in Italy for example. From what I read, (the article didnt involve U.S.) the most targeted countries by ISIS are Belgium, France and Turkey recently. Turkey has a special condition, there is low intensity civil war on the southeastern border anyway. Belgium has Brussels, the EU capital, when it comes to France, the North African history would be an actual factor, I think. In how many of the France attacks, the terrorists are from that region (second generation immigrants etc.also count)?
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 05:10 PM |
|
|
There are no terror acts in Russia, while Putin sent to Allah way more Isis pashas than everyone else combined. Because they remember Beslan and know that Russia will actually answer to such acts, by making no distinction between their families, their pets, their kids and them selves, it will bomb the hell out of all of them until there is no one left. And in the meanwhile we multiply the silence and pray moments, design hearts and light candles.
Europe is dead, it lost the ability and will of defending.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 05:28 PM |
|
|
Beslan was done by seperatist Checens, it had nothing to do with ISIS or something similar such as El Kaide etc.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 05:36 PM |
|
|
|
Exactly, and after beslan massacre russian armies sent that country back to stone age. You ask why France and Belgium, is because we don't answer, we sit down and meditate what we could do without offending the other Zulus already here.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 05:57 PM |
|
|
I wont be getting into the ethics of it but sending Chechnya "back into stone age" against Chechen separatists might actually work. How are you going to do that when facing methods of ISIS, bombing civilians in the region ISIS also kills for heresy or ISIS can consider martyrs of jihad wont be much of a solution. Actually, most probably it will only, like, triple the attacks in Europe and radicalize even more people. It is what they want.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 06:27 PM |
|
|
No, what they want is kill the most of us but remain alive and repeat. We should change that, because right now our actions on the terrain are laughable.
And from where comes the idea they try to radicalize the most of people here, by terror acts? It makes no sense, for example 34 of the Nice victims are muslims. This will trigger the opposite effect.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 06:38 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 18:40, 23 Jul 2016.
|
|
"Kill most of us?" No, Sal, I wouldn't want to sound like reducing people into numbers but even in their most frequent periods, number of lives terror attacks take are insignificant in terms of warfare. Any traditional military bombarding of a city would take much more lives than the sum of terrorist attacks over a year. The motivation of terror attacks are not strategical in a martial sense, they aim to create insecurity, fear, polarization which will certainly result in more recruits. Muslims who don't act radically ideological will put a distance between themselves and organizations such as ISIS anyway, the ones in-between will certainly shift towards ISIS or at least excuse them easier, however, if France "sends Algeria back to stone age" or something similar.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 06:44 PM |
|
|
artu said:
number of lives terror attacks take are insignificant in terms of warfare.
Actually they represent 100% of casualties on our sides, in terms of warfare. So you are wrong ^^
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 23, 2016 06:52 PM |
|
|
|
No, what I mean is, from their side or yours, the number of people who can die because of terror attacks will be a very insignificant minority by a demographic ratio. So, their motive is certainly not to kill the most of you.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
