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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 20 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 · «PREV / NEXT»
Erathianer
Erathianer


Hired Hero
posted May 20, 2017 11:14 AM

bloodsucker said:
Erathianer said:
I created a hota map (map size huge). Before i put his map online i would like to ask someone who can test this map.
Good, me too. I tried Survival some years ago, may I assume this one to be as dificult as that one? I have the same problem, I'm finnishing a map and need someone to play it and tell me how it went and give suggestions. Would you accept a trade? I don't mind to test yours unilaterally but in that case I'll be more a casual player with other priorities in mind, guess I don't need to tell you why.


yes sure lets make a trade! i think my new map can be very difficult but it also can go somewhat more easy than survuval of the fittest. but to be honest i am not really sure if the lategame is balanced well. It depends which path the opponents choose. I like building maps thats didnt go the same way everytime

If you want we can text in private message and exchange emails to send our maps.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 20, 2017 02:40 PM


#FTFH
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2017 04:45 PM

Galaad said:
#FTFH
Uau! This one I love it.

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 22, 2017 06:24 AM
Edited by Ericoz at 06:42, 22 May 2017.

Main problem in HOMM3 imo are the amount of useless SS and might overpowering magic.

My suggestions for balancing the game would be:

-Boost/remove useless secondary skills (EE, learning, mysticism, first aid, sorcery).

-Luck/leadership/artillery/any school of magic that is not earth are tier 2 and while not as bad as the more situational SS they are outshined by the good ones. So maybe they could get some boost too.

-Navigation/pathfinding/ballistics/resistance/archery/scouting/scholar/estates are situational and maybe could be improved to be more versatile. Examples:

-Archery is subpar on 1 ranged unit towns, so maybe it could also decrease the damage done from ranged attacks to your troops by some percentage. It could increase damage from tower shooters.

-Pathfinding could increase the bonus attack/defense/speed for units on their native terrain, and/or treat different terrain as if it was their native terrain.

-Ballistics could give your units bonus attack/defense on siege combat/guarded structures/garrisons.

This way you could actually be able to have different builds and not the obvious offense/logistics/armorer/tactics/earth magic that beats everyone that doesn't also have it.

Mages are weak/unplayable because:

1- Most SS meant for them are bad.

2- Might heroes can learn their good SS.

3- Power/Knowledge have less impact than Attack/Defense.

Some possibilities to improve them would be either boost significantly their SS and/or deny might heroes from being able to learn them. Some examples:

-Power/knowledge having a 1.5x/2x increased effect on mages

-Increase the spell points cost of mass spells for each unit being affected by it (7 units affected costs 7x spell points).

-Make might heroes unable to learn wisdom/schools of magic.

-Improve/boost spells.

New content is fine but we'll keep facing the same problems that happen once you get used to the game, which is hoping for the good SS to come while avoiding the bad ones and always avoiding mage class.

And for people not familiar with multiplayer it might not make sense as you can easily beat 200% difficulty AI using a mage but I recommend you guys to watch any multiplayer to see how big the lack of balance between the 2 classes is.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Hired Hero
posted May 22, 2017 05:56 PM

Ericoz said:
Main problem in HOMM3 imo are the amount of useless SS and might overpowering magic.


Agreed.

Quote:

My suggestions for balancing the game would be:

-Boost/remove useless secondary skills (EE, learning, mysticism, first aid, sorcery).



Removing multiple skills can have consequences.
However, I agree that the skills you mentioned need some kind of boost. Mysticism, sorcery and learning can easily be made better by just increasing their numbers, but first aid and eagle eye need some kind of extra attention, since their concept design is bad by default:
Even if Eagle Eye would allow you to learn spells by 100% of time, it's still really bad and too niche. First aid in the other hand has the same kind of problem - no matter how much the tent heals, first aid doesn't justify a skill slot; if the amount of healing is ever a problem for the opponent, he can just smash the tent, as it has 75 health and can't be brought back in the fight.

Quote:

-Luck/leadership/artillery/any school of magic that is not earth are tier 2 and while not as bad as the more situational SS they are outshined by the good ones. So maybe they could get some boost too.


Air Magic is definitely not a tear 2 skill - mass haste can solely win you fights, and air has the two dominating adventure spells, flying and dimension door, which both scale up nicely with leveling up air magic. Water magic is good too, but it's indeed outshined by earth and air magic. Fire is the , but still far from being useless.

Quote:
Navigation/pathfinding/ballistics/resistance/archery/scouting/scholar/estates are situational and maybe could be improved to be more versatile. Examples:

-Archery is subpar on 1 ranged unit towns, so maybe it could also decrease the damage done from ranged attacks to your troops by some percentage. It could increase damage from tower shooters.



I think archery is the best designed skill in whole game: I hate that some skills in this game are either too powerful or too weak. Archery is neither, it just can be powerful with the right hero with right troops. And you as a player need to see when this skill can really kick off, and when you should go for something else.

Quote:

-Pathfinding could increase the bonus attack/defense/speed for units on their native terrain, and/or treat different terrain as if it was their native terrain.



I think there's nothing wrong with pathfinding. Random maps will always have different kind of terrain, so this skill never fully goes to waste. And if you're playing a map with only grass, it's map makers fault to not disabling the skill.

Quote:

-Ballistics could give your units bonus attack/defense on siege combat/guarded structures/garrisons.



I think ballistics is fine. It's actually a considerable option for some heroes, as for example fortress is kind a bad at taking towns. With weak shooter, and only 2 fliers, you wish that those walls could go down faster.

Quote:

This way you could actually be able to have different builds and not the obvious offense/logistics/armorer/tactics/earth magic that beats everyone that doesn't also have it.



Add air magic, diplo and wisdom to that list and the beast is ready. However, remember that you run several heroes: for scouts you can pick pathfinding and scholar, for garrison heroes you can pick artillery and estates. Not all skills should be for all kinds of heroes. But I really agree that all skills should have a purpose. I hope Hota team will be brave enough to make some changes - I mean they have said that there will be changes for secondary skills, but only two skills remain touched. I wonder what's holding them back?



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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 22, 2017 06:07 PM

Regarding the secondary skills, just change them yourself guys, I did and I like the game even more after my changes.
First Aid Tent can be given more HP, so it is'nt destroyed that easily.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 22, 2017 08:27 PM


#FTFH
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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 24, 2017 12:44 PM

Magic and SS suffer from the same imbalance problems, there is always the good one and the bad one. And the choice is not fully in your hands.

While I agree some situational SS can be really useful depending on map/strategy/town you're using, when it comes to MP/random maps it's pretty straightforward which ones to pick and avoid, making the game linear and without real strategy.

Regarding magic schools, it is relative to discuss since first we are tied down to the spells available, but the fact is Earth magic is too well rounded compared to others. It is the superior choice most of the time. The mass spells are superior. You have shield and slow. Town portal is a level 4 while fly/dd are 5.

Water and fire aren't really worth discussing but I think most of the community would agree that earth>air>water>fire. At least when it comes to random maps/MP. They should be all good options and balancing/boosting them is one of the necessary steps to make magic in pair with might.

I believe there would be little to no different builds if you had the chance to 100% choose all your SS (same for spells, everyone would go for earth most of the time). This is the proof balance is needed/necessary. This means the game's outcome is being decided by luck and not skill.

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ShEv441
ShEv441


Hired Hero
posted May 25, 2017 08:44 PM
Edited by ShEv441 at 19:23, 26 May 2017.

I have to admit that Forge's townscreen created by Don_ko is amazing. To bad it won't be used. With few changes in army's line-up ( cyber zombies, really?) it could be fantastic faction with strong M&M heritage. Hope they will come back to develop this idea.

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MCB
MCB


Hired Hero
posted May 26, 2017 10:34 AM

Yes and only lack laser guns and darth vader level 7 creature.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 26, 2017 12:16 PM

Ericoz said:
This means the game's outcome is being decided by luck and not skill.

I agree but I think the best solution would be to add two more slots increasing the number of secondary skills available for each hero to 10. Making some SS like Scouting more valuable isn't always that great, now I always struggle to get it on as many heroes as I can but that compromises the presence of other important skills. About Magic Schools the problem is more abroad then make Air more probable, while I agree Earth is THE VERY BEST school, in single player, if Fly and DD were disabled, the main reason I take Air is the other travel spell (View Air) that I consider even OP for his level and cost. Otherwise I go for Water, what I can do with Clone and Prayer against AI is unprecedented. About Fire being weak I think what happened was the developers nerfed some of his level 4 spells by not allowing them to be mass just for lassiness, if both Slayer and Fire Shield were massed you wouldn't call it weak anymore.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 26, 2017 12:47 PM

bloodsucker said:
Ericoz said:
This means the game's outcome is being decided by luck and not skill.

I agree


Dealing with bad luck actually is a skill, imo.
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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 26, 2017 02:43 PM

You were defending EE, I triggered it like 3 or 4 times in 15+ years of playing the game, and that was because I was actively seeking to see if it actually worked. It is a consensus on how completely worthless it is. There is no luck involved, it is just plain bad design.

Bad luck happens. Say your opponent found a relic artifact on a shipwreck survivor while all you found on yours was a treasure. I can take that since in this case both players had the same chance.

Now when you're set to fail since day 1 because of how flawed some skills in the game are I call it imbalance. Like you can't even have choices, either you have the good skills or lose. Just look at world cup league statistics on MP games, mages have close to zero chance to win.

Either by nerfing what is already too strong or enhancing what is too weak, those issues need fixing.

I love HOTA for all they did and they sure shut down necromancy real quick because of how broken it was. They fixed phoenix growth and starting armies, the negative luck and stronghold building prices. I agree with 100% on what they did so far. But denying the whole might overpowering magic and letting useless SS loose doesn't make sense. At least allow players to disable those on MP

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 26, 2017 03:14 PM

To be honest, these, the homm series, are not balanced, and imo is for the best. Aren't MP allowed to make their own rules? I heard some are banning half features or so, to me is mutilation but whatever.

I also appreciate the hota tweaks, made it better without changing the experience and spirit of game, which isn't easy to do.
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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 26, 2017 06:50 PM
Edited by Ericoz at 18:55, 26 May 2017.

Back on SOD days Necropolis and Conflux would get banned (because of necromancy and phoenix growth).

I Played a lot of MP with a Tournament Edition patch that changed minor things (bumped haste and slow to level 2, switched TP to fire magic and some other things I don't remember) but mostly tinkered with unit prices/growth just a little bit and added a class system that I didn't agree so much (It would give bonus to primary skills once you attained a certain group of SS) but they did it so some SS would have an overall impact in the game.

There is also a WT version which seems to be a continuation of TE, but I never played that one, seems to be in russian. link here http://heroeswt.net/

DD/Fly/TP also get banned on many games, too much mobility ruins the game as if hero chaining isn't enough.

Then again the sole fact that the online community doesn't agree on how the game should be played online proves the point of the game being completely unbalanced.

Edit: the WT has a readme.txt in english, so you can download and check it for yourself.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 26, 2017 07:19 PM
Edited by Galaad at 19:20, 26 May 2017.

I hear you, all I'm saying is, if you make the game really 'balanced', it will be too different and imo not as fun is all.
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Bonyth
Bonyth

Tavern Dweller
posted May 26, 2017 07:56 PM

Don't forget that if u play best of 99999999999 series against the same opponent, chances are the better player wins

What I'm saying is that this game is not as luck-dependant as some claim it to be.

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 26, 2017 08:16 PM

I disagree, making bad SS/spells a viable option would make the game even better.

I mean, we get tired of mass haste/slow breaking the game so hard. We get tired of avoiding EE/FA/Sorcery/Learning like they are the plague.

What if those finally became somewhat viable? That would be fun.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2017 08:41 PM

You don't have maps for that. If you change mass slow/haste so they don't help as before then you will have to change also templates pattern, otherwise they will be unplayable.

As for skills, you have wog. In WoG mass haste/slow have no impact if you give immunities to creatures. But as I said, this will work only on a carefully designed map. You can't just change the core of the game and suppose it will still work, it won't.

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Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 26, 2017 10:50 PM

"Don't help as before" more like won't break the battle as before. I don't even know what are you talking about, relating broken spells to a map that most of the time will be random. Assuming the mass spell was a level 3/4 for example it would be just harder for might to abuse it.

HOMM2 did it the right way, schools of magic were bad implemented on HOMM3 and ended up overpowering might heroes that can take the best of two worlds with zero drawbacks, it costs few spell points and not even wisdom is necessary. It's a joke.

If I recall correctly you were defending sorcery specialty at some point in this forum. Do you really think FA/EE/Sorcery/Learning are even close to be more than a waste of skill slot?

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