|
|
RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
|
posted April 09, 2020 07:58 AM |
|
Edited by RerryR at 08:21, 09 Apr 2020.
|
Rimgrabber said:
Has anyone talked about ways to make each class more unique? Like each class gets its own unique passive ability. I think that would be fun and still stay true to the original game.
Yes, one could say that I put a bit of thought in it.
I decide to scrap the 18 sub-classes because they make little difference and now there are only three classes which are decided through your choice of secondary skill.
What I came up with:
Warrior class gains:
+ 10% maximum damage for creatures
+ small chance for critical strikes
+ can improve warrior skills further
Mage class:
+ 1 extra cast per battle
+ elemental resistance
+ can improve mage skills further
Adventurer class:
+ no movement cost for flagging and picking up res
+ creature bonus and gold bonus when conquering towns
+ can improve adventurer skills further
Skills are more or less devided in categories like this:
another approach would be to leave old subclasses and make little passives perks for each class like Ranger and Druid. But in my opinion you always choose between the 10 same heroes anyway, so most bonuses would be wasted. Better way, make each hero specialization more viable, that goes in the same direction. Also theres a loooooot room for improvement for most heroes.
|
|
gatecrasher
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 10:58 AM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
Yeah it actually saddens me a bit that Cove is so OP.
The worst example might be the Accurate Shot, but also Haspid's Revenge ability, the "fast flying crusaders", Nixes physical resistance and Sea Sorceresses Disrupting Ray spam is quite insane.
Cove creatures are also pretty fast (12 speed is extremely fast for a walking unit) and Cove heroes are good and Cove have Mage Guild 4 and Cannon.
I really feel they went over board with Cove.
I think you're too focused on ranged units. Nixes, Ayssids, Serpents provide a better bang to buck ratio than Sea Dogs.
|
|
FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 11:35 AM |
|
|
gatecrasher said:
phoenix4ever said:
Yeah it actually saddens me a bit that Cove is so OP.
The worst example might be the Accurate Shot, but also Haspid's Revenge ability, the "fast flying crusaders", Nixes physical resistance and Sea Sorceresses Disrupting Ray spam is quite insane.
Cove creatures are also pretty fast (12 speed is extremely fast for a walking unit) and Cove heroes are good and Cove have Mage Guild 4 and Cannon.
I really feel they went over board with Cove.
I think you're too focused on ranged units. Nixes, Ayssids, Serpents provide a better bang to buck ratio than Sea Dogs.
No, he just showed us Cove is well above-average in all areas.
|
|
Hourglass
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 12:29 PM |
|
|
Few new map objects:
Bard
A map object that cares about your heroes gender. Vanishes when picked up, has low RMG value.
Sings a song to your hero, if hero is male, Bard praises his power and masculinity, if hero is female, Bard praises her beauty and wisdom
If hero is male: Increases attack or defence by 1 permanently, and gives +2 luck until end of next battle.
If the hero female: Increases spell power or knowledge by 1 permanently, and (after that) replenish 20 points of mana.
Basically, the effect could be anything, this is just something I came up with, but it would be cool to have one object that cares about hero gender. Especially nowadays, since you can actually the gender simply looking at the hero map sprite.
--
Woodcutter's Cottage
A map object that gives slight gold or wood bonus to the visiting hero. Woodcutter is not working on Sundays, but can be visited on any other day.
33% chance of getting one of the following: 200 gold, 300 gold, 3 wood.
Low RMG value, limited only one object per zone.
|
|
gatecrasher
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 01:21 PM |
|
|
FirePaladin said:
No, he just showed us Cove is well above-average in all areas.
It is not so much under realistic resource conditions. It's a damn expensive town, not the easiest to get momentum with.
I agree that it is a strong town but I don't think it's miles ahead of the competition.
|
|
FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 01:42 PM |
|
|
gatecrasher said:
FirePaladin said:
No, he just showed us Cove is well above-average in all areas.
It is not so much under realistic resource conditions. It's a damn expensive town, not the easiest to get momentum with.
I agree that it is a strong town but I don't think it's miles ahead of the competition.
Other than the Sea Dog dwelling, I don't see what's too expensive.
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 03:56 PM |
|
|
The argument of Cove being expensive is being thrown around a lot, even though Conflux, Tower and Castle are more expensive...
Cove is always the town I does best/fastest with, which probably means they are better than everyone else, maybe not by a huge margin, but overall Cove seems to be the best.
|
|
FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 04:04 PM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
The argument of Cove being expensive is being thrown around a lot, even though Conflux, Tower and Castle are more expensive...
Cove is always the town I does best/fastest with, which probably means they are better than everyone else, maybe not by a huge margin, but overall Cove seems to be the best.
I know. Every time I play with Cove, the game is actually somewhat easier, even on Impossible: creeping is easier, using strategies involving the huge attack of the nymphs and the supporting cannon, clearing after getting the birds and the witches, then the lizards and the snake for stronger stacks, which you can get early if you find the resources, especially the nixes.
Also, heroes. With Eovacius, every time the Haspid's turn comes, I basically get a triple attack. Cannon too, is almost enough to clear the neutrals by itself, more so with Jeremy. There's another with Offense specialty.
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 04:12 PM |
|
|
Thank you FirePaladin, I'm glad we agree.
I guess I must do some nerfs to Cove myself...
|
|
Hourglass
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 06:17 PM |
|
|
Guys, when you talk about Cove, please take in consiredation that the power of town is not determined by individual unit, but rather as a whole package. I'm not here to dump Cove, I really like it as well, probably just as much as you do. I just want to say few things why I personally feel Cove isn't as strong as you might think, and therefore doesn't need to be nerfed.
Units
While there's nothing really bad about Cove's units, I'm not sure if there really is anything to brag about. Only Sea Dogs can be argued as being a top unit in it's own tier, but I personally disagree even on that - I think Grand Elves are more consistant and better unit as a whole.
Ayssids are great, but they ofc are not as crazy as vamp lords.
Haspids can also be good, but while they are certainly fast, their movement is hindered by the fact they can't fly and thus can be kited, making them less threatning when fight against. I would also argue that Haspids tend to need their numbers more than lvl 7 creatures normally do - otherwise they can't really utilize their revenge ability with full potential. They might be better if maps are big, but on maps you cannot have big army of them, they are only avarage units (to their tier standards.)
Nymphs, Crew mates, Sea witches and Nixes are avarage units to their tier standards (like, really).
Utility
Utility-wise cove is quite bad. It doesn't have access to Mage Guild lvl 5, which is a huge drawback. Cove tends to lean towards water magic, which is also not the most wanted magic school. Also, while Cove is capable of producing raw power with it's units and expanded dwellings, it's really all that it can provide to support it's heroes and armies.
Thieves guild is only somewhat good on very spesific time at during the game, otherwise it simply doesn't do anything. Grotto is expensive, and usually even not necessary worth it: usually you either don't have things to sacrifice, or the game has come to a point where new level ups to your hero don't actually make you much stronger.
Most of the other towns have access to lvl 5 mage guild, and good utility buildings, such as Stables, Mana vortex, Skeleton transformer, Portal of summoning, Library etc.
Heroes
I often see Cove's heroes praised, and I agree that they're well designed. While they indeed have good (might) heroes, you can only pick one, and another hero is guaranteed to your tavern. The games are never about your 16 heroes against the other players 16 heroes. Not to mention that other towns can very well use Cove heroes as well - Corkes doesn't care if he leads pirates or goblins. The thing about heroes is also that your town only really needs few good ones, and then you're set.
Siege
Definetly an area Cove struggles. Cannon can target walls, but that's really the only good thing for Cove when it comes to siege battles. Accurate shot cannot trigger if there are still walls left, Coves 5-7 level units can't fly, making them lack powerful units that can deal their full damage. Ayssids and Nymphs are unsuitable for sieging, as while they can sure deal damage, they cannot take it.
Terrain
Cove's native terrain is swamp, which happens to be the hardest terrain to move with. While this penalty can somewhat easily be avoided by having only native creatures, this kinda forces your hand - if you would like to mix other creatures to your army, the harsh terrain penalty will hit you with one way or another.
This is very pessimistic view about Cove, but Cove I don't mean to say Cove is bad - maybe just not as menacing as one would think by reading the recent posts in this topic.
|
|
FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 08:29 PM |
|
|
Hourglass said:
Guys, when you talk about Cove, please take in consiredation that the power of town is not determined by individual unit, but rather as a whole package. I'm not here to dump Cove, I really like it as well, probably just as much as you do. I just want to say few things why I personally feel Cove isn't as strong as you might think, and therefore doesn't need to be nerfed.
Units
While there's nothing really bad about Cove's units, I'm not sure if there really is anything to brag about. Only Sea Dogs can be argued as being a top unit in it's own tier, but I personally disagree even on that - I think Grand Elves are more consistant and better unit as a whole.
Ayssids are great, but they ofc are not as crazy as vamp lords.
Haspids can also be good, but while they are certainly fast, their movement is hindered by the fact they can't fly and thus can be kited, making them less threatning when fight against. I would also argue that Haspids tend to need their numbers more than lvl 7 creatures normally do - otherwise they can't really utilize their revenge ability with full potential. They might be better if maps are big, but on maps you cannot have big army of them, they are only avarage units (to their tier standards.)
Nymphs, Crew mates, Sea witches and Nixes are avarage units to their tier standards (like, really).
Utility
Utility-wise cove is quite bad. It doesn't have access to Mage Guild lvl 5, which is a huge drawback. Cove tends to lean towards water magic, which is also not the most wanted magic school. Also, while Cove is capable of producing raw power with it's units and expanded dwellings, it's really all that it can provide to support it's heroes and armies.
Thieves guild is only somewhat good on very spesific time at during the game, otherwise it simply doesn't do anything. Grotto is expensive, and usually even not necessary worth it: usually you either don't have things to sacrifice, or the game has come to a point where new level ups to your hero don't actually make you much stronger.
Most of the other towns have access to lvl 5 mage guild, and good utility buildings, such as Stables, Mana vortex, Skeleton transformer, Portal of summoning, Library etc.
Heroes
I often see Cove's heroes praised, and I agree that they're well designed. While they indeed have good (might) heroes, you can only pick one, and another hero is guaranteed to your tavern. The games are never about your 16 heroes against the other players 16 heroes. Not to mention that other towns can very well use Cove heroes as well - Corkes doesn't care if he leads pirates or goblins. The thing about heroes is also that your town only really needs few good ones, and then you're set.
Siege
Definetly an area Cove struggles. Cannon can target walls, but that's really the only good thing for Cove when it comes to siege battles. Accurate shot cannot trigger if there are still walls left, Coves 5-7 level units can't fly, making them lack powerful units that can deal their full damage. Ayssids and Nymphs are unsuitable for sieging, as while they can sure deal damage, they cannot take it.
Terrain
Cove's native terrain is swamp, which happens to be the hardest terrain to move with. While this penalty can somewhat easily be avoided by having only native creatures, this kinda forces your hand - if you would like to mix other creatures to your army, the harsh terrain penalty will hit you with one way or another.
This is very pessimistic view about Cove, but Cove I don't mean to say Cove is bad - maybe just not as menacing as one would think by reading the recent posts in this topic.
In any case, since the army is the focusing point of HoMM, Cove's army in itself is above-average on any kind of map size and game period. And that's the problem. And yeah, even tho the birds and the toilet-waters will easily die, who even takes them in month 3 as something else than cannon fodder and a fast wrecking strike with Haste? And in early game and short maps you're gonna probably have Jeremy with cannon support, together with at least witches and maybe even nixes.
I must admit, sieges are the weak spot, but everything else is at it's best in terms of fighting prowess.
|
|
gatecrasher
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 08:49 PM |
|
|
@FirePaladin
Please don't always quote big posts, it makes threads very cumbersome to read.
|
|
gatecrasher
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 08:51 PM |
|
|
|
Question is wheter the HotA guys have any statistics online gaming statistics which shows Cove OPness or not.
|
|
gatecrasher
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 09, 2020 08:53 PM |
|
|
|
Hourglass
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 10, 2020 12:18 AM |
|
|
FirePaladin said:
In any case, since the army is the focusing point of HoMM, Cove's army in itself is above-average on any kind of map size and game period. And that's the problem. And yeah, even tho the birds and the toilet-waters will easily die, who even takes them in month 3 as something else than cannon fodder and a fast wrecking strike with Haste? And in early game and short maps you're gonna probably have Jeremy with cannon support, together with at least witches and maybe even nixes.
I must admit, sieges are the weak spot, but everything else is at it's best in terms of fighting prowess.
I'm confused - are you stating that an army that is above avarage is a problem? Or did you mean that it's a problem that it can good in any map size? To me being "above avarage" means that something like a student getting slighlty better grades the big mass, but it's still far a way from the top?
Do you really think Cove is that strong it would need some kind of nerf? How would you rate Castle, Dungeon and Necro for example? In my eyes Castle is way stronger than Cove, but I think they're build on the same kind of idea, so we can easily compare them:
Same level of magic guild, both prefer water magic.
Utility-wise Castle is better, because of Stables, and this is kinda what makes Castle so powerful, in all states of the game.
Castle got very nice heroes as well, maybe not as flashy as Cove's but overall good heroes. Also, Castle can find Coves heroes from tavern and vice-versa.
But when it comes to creatures, Castle clearly has better units:
Halberder > Oceanid (Same-ish damage, but Halberder is way tankier)
Marksman > Seaman (clearly better than Seaman)
Royal Griffin < Sea Dog (Well, they're upgraded twice, RG is better than Corsair)
Crusader < Ayssid (this one is really close)
Zealot < Sorceress (Clearly worst Castle creature, and Sorceress isn't even among the best tier 5 units)
Champion > Nix (simply better than Nix)
Archanglel > Haspid (well, AAs are the best tier 7)
Their playstyle is also similiar, easy-to-use creatures with all intended dealing as much damage as possible.
Unlike Cove, Castle tends to have way better starting positions with Grass + they're clearly better at sieging the opponent.
@gatecrasher
I'm not sure if there is any, but I've seen Docent calling Cove avarage in MP games during this year. However, it should be mentioned, that MP is ofc very different than playing the game casually. Power between towns does vary between play modes, and how big the map is. However, balancing the game for casual play only makes no sense to me, as the player is already and clerly overpowered against the AI. Imo two human beings are needed to tell something about the power levels between towns.
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted April 10, 2020 07:03 AM |
|
|
Hourglass said:
Halberder > Oceanid (Same-ish damage, but Halberder is way tankier)
Marksman > Seaman (clearly better than Seaman)
Royal Griffin < Sea Dog (Well, they're upgraded twice, RG is better than Corsair)
Crusader < Ayssid (this one is really close)
Zealot < Sorceress (Clearly worst Castle creature, and Sorceress isn't even among the best tier 5 units)
Champion > Nix (simply better than Nix)
Archanglel > Haspid (well, AAs are the best tier 7)
Halbardiers wins first round I agree, but Oceanids are faster, have teleport and are immune to Ice Bolt and Frost Ring.
Marksmen are better at what?, dieing?, cause they are very good at that. No I would probably call this a tie. Have you seen the insane number Seamen comes in?, they also do good damage.
Sea Dogs are much better, best level 3 end of discussion. Yeah they die easily, but not as easily as Grand Elves.
Ayssids wins this round, they are much faster, flies and comes in higher numbers.
Sea Sorceresses wins this round, Zealots are not very good.
Round 6 I would call a tie, have you seen how hard it is to kill Nix Warriors.
Round 7 goes to Archangels, it is the best level 7 creature, still Haspids with Revenge and Poison are powerful.
So that is 2 wins for Castle, 3 wins for Cove and 2 draws.
Pretty equal, but Cove army is still a little better than Castle army.
Now compare Cove VS Inferno or Cove VS Fortress...
|
|
sirironfist
Known Hero
King of the ogres
|
|
posted April 10, 2020 09:47 AM |
|
|
Does anyone else get a little irritated by the sound effects that stormbirds make? It's that cliche eagle sound that you hear in every single American movie. I don't know which eagle species actually sounds like that, but it sure is an eagle or vulture. Maybe something more sea bird like would be more fitting for stormbirds. Most people probably don't notice this, but once you realise how over-used this sound is it just gets irritating. It makes these creatures feel very generic to me. Sound effects often seem a little trivial at first, but to me they are responsible for much of the character that a unit has.
Also, the footstep sounds of nixes sound a little too light to me.
In general I find the sound effects of newer neutral HotA creatures to be better than the Cove ones. Fangarm sounds are brilliant for example.
Are Cove visuals and audio going to be a subject for change at some point? If so, I hope these two things sound plausible to other people as well.
|
|
FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
|
|
posted April 10, 2020 10:19 AM |
|
|
sirironfist said:
Does anyone else get a little irritated by the sound effects that stormbirds make? It's that cliche eagle sound that you hear in every single American movie. I don't know which eagle species actually sounds like that, but it sure is an eagle or vulture. Maybe something more sea bird like would be more fitting for stormbirds. Most people probably don't notice this, but once you realise how over-used this sound is it just gets irritating. It makes these creatures feel very generic to me. Sound effects often seem a little trivial at first, but to me they are responsible for much of the character that a unit has.
Also, the footstep sounds of nixes sound a little too light to me.
In general I find the sound effects of newer neutral HotA creatures to be better than the Cove ones. Fangarm sounds are brilliant for example.
Are Cove visuals and audio going to be a subject for change at some point? If so, I hope these two things sound plausible to other people as well.
I dunno if they will change, unless someone says the sounds have problems, which you just did. One of the only sound that was a little "wrong" by me was, as you mentioned before, the lizards' footsteps. And don't forget, Nixes carry a super-light armor
Also, geez Hourglass, what I meant was that Cove army shines in absolutely almost any situation and area, having little problems compared to other factions. And heroes raise that to another level. Besides Sir Mullich, is any Castle hero as OP as Cove heroes? And Navigators have some of the best skill chances, with all necessary skills having at least 5 chance.
And there's also army composition and how annoying is to kill Cove: I'm telling you, when I did tests on faction VS faction, Cove was probably the most annoying to kill; all troops dealt tons of damage (even the sewer waters), if you concentrated on lower tiers, like killing Sea Dogs, it was guaranteed Haspids and Nixes will crush you next turn, together with all un-killed stacks. If you then attacked Haspids, Sorceresses (or any other troop) and Nixes, well... the Nixes' numbers went down absurdly hard, and after you attacked Haspids, then they started to frickin' deal 200% damage in a frenzy. Seamen also die hard if you don't concentrate on killing them, but with a eyeless vengeful snake (now I wonder why they aren't immune to Blind) and some spear-wielding crocs around you don't want that.
And every other army couldn't really compare in all levels raw strength to them, only maybe Stronghold who died in a few turns.
I have to clean the house, sorry. Bye! (this is for real).
Also, it's my birthday! 
|
|
EvilEyes
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted April 10, 2020 11:08 AM |
|
|
Wondered whatever happened to the Cathedral faction that looked so awesome?
Is it gone for good? I was more thrilled about it than any other new faction, even before Cove was out. Sad to see no news about it.
|
|
Hourglass
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 10, 2020 11:13 AM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
Halbardiers wins first round I agree, but Oceanids are faster, have teleport and are immune to Ice Bolt and Frost Ring.
Oceanids are not bad units by any means, but Halberder is clearly better. Oceanids are faster and do fly, but the other stats are simply outmatched. One mistake and you will lose a lot of oceanids in the early game, while Halberders can take random morale procs to face and still say relevant. Ice immunity is just cool (lol!), but niche abilty, it will not play any kind of role in any part of the game. When it comes to "being good against spells", Halberders have upper hand; Each 60 points of spell damage would take out 15 Oceanids, but only 6 Halberders.
phoenix4ever said:
Marksmen are better at what?, dieing?, cause they are very good at that. No I would probably call this a tie. Have you seen the insane number Seamen comes in?, they also do good damage.
Well, by pushing the creatures to their actual limits, we learn that Marskmen do better as a powerstack. You would sure get a nice stack of Seaman by starting Derek, and definetly could get something done with it. However, try Valeska and see what she's capable of doing to see what I mean.
The thing is, that you're able to keep your Marksmen safe, and thus maintaining their power from fight to fight. Seamen you would need to put in danger, and no matter how good you play, you would lose units here and there, to the point where you would no longer be able to do fights. Yes, Markman are vulnerable, but that goes to any tier 2 unit, excluding Storm elementals. Marksmen also simply outdamage Seamen.
phoenix4ever said:
Sea Dogs are much better, best level 3 end of discussion. Yeah they die easily, but not as easily as Grand Elves.
You said earlier that your maps tend to last 4-5 months before ending, for sure Sea Dogs are better that kind of play in mind. Why I value grand elves so higly, is the reason that when everything is pushed to their limits, the Grand Elves are the ones to come top, as they can be build so early in the game. Also, castle's Royal gryphons are by no means a bad unit.
phoenix4ever said:
Ayssids wins this round, they are much faster, flies and comes in higher numbers.
Ayssids are IMO the 2nd best tier 4 creature, and Crusader the 3rd best. A player that that appericates the tankier appearance of Crusaders might choose otherwise.
phoenix4ever said:
Sea Sorceresses wins this round, Zealots are not very good.
Zealot is indeed not very good creature, possibly 3rd worst by it's tier standards. Sorceress is only slightly better thou.
phoenix4ever said:
Round 6 I would call a tie, have you seen how hard it is to kill Nix Warriors.
I have seen, they're indeed very tanky, but we are still very far from a tie. Champions deal ridicilous damage, the fact that cannot be said about Nix Warriors. Cove would choose Champions over nixes any day of the week if they could.
phoenix4ever said:
Round 7 goes to Archangels, it is the best level 7 creature, still Haspids with Revenge and Poison are powerful.
Well, being powerful goes pretty much to any lvl 7+ creature. IMO haspids are very comperable to Behemots, which are dealing high single target damage. They do not possess any other tricks, thou. No immunites, no capability of dealing damage to more than one creature at a time. No flying, which is a big minus, as they got quite good speed (they're not even that fast compared to other tier 7+ creatures.)
And not a single comment from stables? This object is INSANELY strong. It basically means ALL your heroes will get expert logistics for free as hidden skill, if not better. Like, seriosly, I'm calling a nerf in the next patch.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
