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pumma
Hired Hero
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posted May 28, 2019 09:21 PM |
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All of you call it design choice I call it design implementation. That's the difference. They designed the secondary skills system as a whole with different probabilities of getting different skills based on the town and the type of the heroes (Might or Magic). The biggest probability was something like 10 of 112 which is almost 9% with all the skills on the table and is for "class skills" like leadership for Knights or First Aid for Clerics etc. That is quite a good system if you ask me and so far so good but here comes the implementation (or how to make it real and that's where they failed). The results of the probabilities are determined at the beginning of the map and the result is something like a tree which leads to the same skills every time. There is no complete randomness as in HMM4 but one time randomness at the beginning of a map. Not the best implementation but it is quite OK.
It seems that this wasn't enough and they implemented the subroutine about the Wisdom and the Magic Schools skills. Now instead of 3% chance for getting Magic school as Might hero the chance goes up to 50%. The most ridiculous part is that the classes which are at least incline to magic have the biggest probability of getting Magic school. So the result is just the opposite of the design. Bug, mistake, failure or whatever you want to call it doesn't matter, the result is the same - broken implementation of the designed secondary skills system.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted May 28, 2019 09:26 PM |
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pumma said:
All of you call it design choice I call it design implementation. That's the difference. They designed the secondary skills system as a whole with different probabilities of getting different skills based on the town and the type of the heroes (Might or Magic). The biggest probability was something like 10 of 112 which is almost 9% with all the skills on the table and is for "class skills" like leadership for Knights or First Aid for Clerics etc. That is quite a good system if you ask me and so far so good but here comes the implementation (or how to make it real and that's where they failed). The results of the probabilities are determined at the beginning of the map and the result is something like a tree which leads to the same skills every time. There is no complete randomness as in HMM4 but one time randomness at the beginning of a map. Not the best implementation but it is quite OK.
It seems that this wasn't enough and they implemented the subroutine about the Wisdom and the Magic Schools skills. Now instead of 3% chance for getting Magic school as Might hero the chance goes up to 50%. The most ridiculous part is that the classes which are at least incline to magic have the biggest probability of getting Magic school. So the result is just the opposite of the design. Bug, mistake, failure or whatever you want to call it doesn't matter, the result is the same - broken implementation of the designed secondary skills system.
You're correct.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 29, 2019 11:48 AM |
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I guess they should have put more thought into it, that I can agree on.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 31, 2019 12:36 PM |
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Well, wouldnt it be useful to add 2 more skills to a maximum of 10? WoG already did that, just lacking an optical solution for it.
To compensate the loss of variety some more new skills should be added.
Differences:
-Harder to get on expert level (nice for expert air/earth, coz it takes longer)
-More powerful endgame heroes
-More skills? the already added Resistance and the reworked version of old Resistance that will be added under another name.
My guess is, it would be too powerful in the end. What do you think?
@pumma
Good point to change the probabilities for might heroes. 3 out of 112 is still just 2,6%
Another suggestion: Mageguilds from Necropolis should teach Necromancy
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Djangoo
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 31, 2019 04:34 PM |
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Edited by Djangoo at 16:35, 31 May 2019.
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i dont see why having 10 skills would add anything to the game, especially considering the many useless ones
every build would be the same
(earth/air/log/offense/armourer/archery/tactics/resistance/int/starting skill)
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Orrinisthebest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted June 04, 2019 01:03 PM |
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Altar of Sacrifice:
Good and neutral heroes are advantegous since spare arties give tons of exp but the rest can only use creatures. Maybe you should change creatures to gold/resources so that "evil" heroes can be leveled up easily as well. Or triple the amount of exp for creatures, i mean at this point i don't see a reason to put such restriction on dungeon/necro/inferno heroes.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 04, 2019 02:21 PM |
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You consider the artifacts a boon as opposed to creatures? Usually artifacts are in much smaller supply than creatures. Of course, this depends on the map being played, some may be rich in artifacts.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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planetavril 
Famous Hero
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posted June 04, 2019 02:33 PM |
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could add golden artifacts that combine them to let you find a functioning building as a portal with which the hero finds himself on completely golden ground where he can collect other bonuses, artifacts, resources, special or neutral creatures etc. etc.,
then a land accessible only after finding the golden artifacts
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Orrinisthebest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted June 04, 2019 09:48 PM |
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Maurice said:
Usually artifacts are in much smaller supply than creatures.
I don't remember saccing creatures in order to level up my heroes,ever. In a normal map usually you get lots of useless arties until 4th week and having altar or grotto building at your disposal is just too good. Of course if the heroes you're going to build are not of evil towns.
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shev441
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 06, 2019 10:23 PM |
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Edited by shev441 at 23:02, 06 Jun 2019.
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Quite ineresting idea poped up in my head. What are most iconic camapaigns/heroes of Heroes 3? Pobably most of you will recall Dragon Slyer and Gelu's stories. Theses missions were based on the simple but very cool idea in which we can upgrade our town's creature into fancy better one (elfs => sharpshooters, ,mage => enchanters). It was a great opportunity to accualy play with these neutral creatures at all. Normally you rearly use neutrals cause it's hard to find dwelling to recruit them. Usually even if you find neutral's dwelling there will be probably only 1 of them so you won't be able to accumulate enough of them to be usefull or it will be already useless cause of late game state. Totally different situation is in these 2 classic campaigns. By transformig 1 of existing unit in town into neutral you can provide amount that is big enough to make it worth playing with it in your army. How many fantastic stories are still ahead of us?
Ogres => Trolls
  
Specialty: Trolls
Specialty Trolls : Can upgrade Ogre or Ogre Magi to Trolls.
New hero / Winston Boragus - legendary hero deserves better speciality than boring ogres like basic hero has- Krellion
Winston Boragus' special kinship with the trolls he commands in battle has taken him far in his quest for power.
Plot is still almost same, chance to accualy play with trolls in army, trolls are 5th lvl unit, more agressive then ogres (lower hp, faster, stronger, can regenerate), town should feel a bit diffrent to play now.
Zombies => Mummy
 
New hero
Specialty Mummy : Can upgrade Walking Dead or Zombie to Mummy.
Mummy is better, 3rd lvl creature, faster then zombie (its main weakness), great chance to finally play with mummy in your army. Not to OP.
Golems => Golden golems
 
New hero
Specialty Golden golems: Can upgrade Golems or Iron Golems to Mummy.
Same scenerio as hero with zombies=>mummy.
Dwarfs => Leprechauns
 
New hero
Specialty Leprechauns: Can upgrade Dwarfs or Battle Dwarfs to Leprechauns.
These creatures have similar stats. It would be awesome to play Rampart with a bit less tank 2nd lvl monster with ability to cast luck on elfs  .
It would be great if Hota Crew could add these heroes to make it possible to play more with neutral creatures. These new heroes should be available only in special scenerios/campaigns.
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planetavril
Famous Hero
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posted June 06, 2019 10:53 PM |
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type Gelu's Genealogy,heroes of the "family" of Gelu who can then transform one creature into another?
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 06, 2019 11:27 PM |
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shev441 makes an interesting point.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 06, 2019 11:47 PM |
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to be fair Ogres are not the same race of Trolls and what have you, why to not upgrade evil eye to centaur for all that sense lol
golem makes sense though, or Orc and Boar lol
btw I had noticed that Agar is in one of those trailers for Factory (probably inspired by Polish MDT Forge), does that mean it is a prequel story from when Agar was still flesh and bone cheers lol
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 06, 2019 11:50 PM |
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I don't understand why the neutral creature buildings can't appear randomly.
If they could the neutral creatures would become more common and one could actually consider taking neutral creatures with you once in a while.
It does'nt help a lot of neutral creatures are quite bad (peasants are pathetic really and rogues, boars and mummies are also pretty bad) and all lack a native terrain.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 07, 2019 12:08 AM |
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Neutral creatures buildings generate only in neutral zones. Neutral zones are rare in rng templates.
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Djangoo
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 07, 2019 08:15 AM |
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HotA template editor has the option to set all creature rewards (including dwellings) in a zone to neutral only.
It's a great and simple feäture.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted June 10, 2019 10:51 PM |
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shev441 said:
Quite ineresting idea poped up in my head. What are most iconic camapaigns/heroes of Heroes 3? Pobably most of you will recall Dragon Slyer and Gelu's stories. Theses missions were based on the simple but very cool idea in which we can upgrade our town's creature into fancy better one (elfs => sharpshooters, ,mage => enchanters). It was a great opportunity to accualy play with these neutral creatures at all. Normally you rearly use neutrals cause it's hard to find dwelling to recruit them. Usually even if you find neutral's dwelling there will be probably only 1 of them so you won't be able to accumulate enough of them to be usefull or it will be already useless cause of late game state. Totally different situation is in these 2 classic campaigns. By transformig 1 of existing unit in town into neutral you can provide amount that is big enough to make it worth playing with it in your army. How many fantastic stories are still ahead of us?
-Trolls are worse than Orge Mages... why would you downgrade them?
-Mummy is an useful upgrade... would like that for necropolis since they already were implemented in HoMM2, also fits in case of stats
-Upgrading Golems would be too OP imho at least when the change would also include a Josephine upgrade -> for all golems, anyway the HP and spell damage resistance is broken if you could upgrade them just like that imho.
-Leprechauns are worse than battle dwarfs...
to sum it up: Its like comparing apples with pears. But I really would like a third upgrade for some units in general like HotA did with Pirates.
My wishlist:
Crusaders -> Paladins
Silver Pegasus -> something better with some more health maybe strike and return
Obsidian Gargoyle -> but dunno what in detail... at least an ability would be nice
Zombie -> Mummy
Scorpicore -> something with more health
Thunderbird -> I like them as they are, maybe some higher stats
Wyvern Monarch/Basilisk -> Dragonfly stocks need a rebalance, but I would like them to have 15 more HP
Cove already has Corsaires...
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2019 11:19 PM |
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My wishlist:
Serafins - no retaliation, spell damage immune.
Genie Califas - cast more times, bigger (like Efreet Sultans stats)
Great Enchanters - more spells available, 12 of speed, 20 of A/D, 30 damage, 60 HP)
but that's just that I'm dreaming...
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mihaid
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 08:44 AM |
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Edited by mihaid at 10:38, 12 Jun 2019.
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First of all, thank you for all the great work you've put into making Heroes 3 even better. It's been like 20 years since its release and people still playing it today is a testament to its greatness.
I'm playing HotA at work with some of my colleagues which makes my office hours considerably more enjoyable. So here are some of my suggestions:
1) Berserk
With the modifications to the Resistance skill, Berserk becomes even more powerful because it can't be resisted.
Suggestion1: Make it work like Hypnotize by setting a max health of the targeted stack based on the power skill of the casting hero.
Suggestion2: Make it work like Clone by setting a max level of the targeted stack based on Fire Magic skill level.
Suggestion3: Don't allow it to be cast in the first turn of combat (although I'm not sure if the game mechanics allow this).
2) Town portal
Suggestion1: Make it work like Dimension Door by limiting the number of uses per day based on Earth Magic skill level.
Suggestion2: Make it work like Visions by limiting the maximum range between casting hero and destination castle.
3) Clock of the Undead King
Suggestion: raise Skeletons with Basic Necromancy / Walking Dead with Advanced / Wights with Expert
4) Experience points
Basing XP on hit points of killed creatures is not the most accurate solution because you get into situations where an Iron Golem gives more XP than an Enchanter or a Dwarf give more XP than a Sharpshooter.
Suggestion: base experience points on fight value.
These are the ones that I can think of for now. Thanks.
Edit: I remembered something, although I think this might be a request for the HD Mod rather than HotA: let users choose the color of the banner. Or make it that Tan is switched with Teal or something else that can be easily seen on the map. Tan looks too much like the neutral gray color.
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orrinisthebest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted June 14, 2019 04:44 PM |
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mihaid said:
1) Berserk
With the modifications to the Resistance skill, Berserk becomes even more powerful because it can't be resisted.
Please, berserk is the only reason right now players choose fire magic on their main heroes. Maybe after the rework of magic schools we can discuss it.
mihaid said:
2) Town portal
Any suggestion is welcomed as long as it doesn't make Inferno's Castle Gate useless.
mihaid said:
3) Clock of the Undead King
Suggestion: raise Skeletons with Basic Necromancy / Walking Dead with Advanced / Wights with Expert
Wraith powerstack doesn't sound bad but im sure it will be banned with tourney rules on after some time,so no point in implementation.
mihaid said:
4) Experience points
Basing XP on hit points of killed creatures is not the most accurate solution because you get into situations where an Iron Golem gives more XP than an Enchanter or a Dwarf give more XP than a Sharpshooter.
Suggestion: base experience points on fight value.
Spot on. I hope they'll make the effort to code this.
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