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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 51 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 23 24 25 26 27 ... 30 40 50 51 · «PREV / NEXT»
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted February 24, 2018 01:38 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 10:01, 26 Feb 2018.

- Gold Dragons resist all magic like Black Dragons

why discriminate with Implosion. dragons are brothers in arms - or scaly wings

- Eagle Eye work like Scholar

example: you see an enemy scout Solmyr. he only has Chain Lightning in his spellbook. by engaging him with a hero that has expert Eagle Eye you have a 60% chance to learn Chain Lightning, even though he ran away instantly without casting any spells

example: if opponent hero has multiple spells, then a random spell your hero does not have will be learned

optional: all spells up to level 4 will be learned if % kicks in

optional: learning priority start from higher level spells first

optional: each spell calculate probability of learning independently

optional: adventure map spells are excluded from learning

- Sorcery - % increase for all spells

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 26, 2018 11:32 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:35, 26 Feb 2018.

Lth3 said:
- Gold Dragons resist all magic like Black Dragons

why discriminate with Implosion. dragons are brothers in arms - or scaly wings

Because there should be one single use for that rare and overpriced spell known as Magic Mirror. (Just kidding of course.)


Lth3 said:
- Sorcery - % increase for all spells

I don't see how it could affect ALL spells, but it could easily affect Cure, Hypnotize, Animate Dead and Resurrection. (And maybe add duration to other combat spells, but duration is rarely a problem anyway.)

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted February 26, 2018 10:17 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 22:22, 26 Feb 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Lth3 said:
- Gold Dragons resist all magic like Black Dragons

why discriminate with Implosion. dragons are brothers in arms - or scaly wings

Because there should be one single use for that rare and overpriced spell known as Magic Mirror. (Just kidding of course.)

i would agree with you but on basic level it's only 20%. ignore alert


phoenix4ever said:
Lth3 said:
- Sorcery - % increase for all spells

I don't see how it could affect ALL spells, but it could easily affect Cure, Hypnotize, Animate Dead and Resurrection. (And maybe add duration to other combat spells, but duration is rarely a problem anyway.)

yes those. and Firewall, Land Mine. maybe Summon Elemental also. anything that has a variable calculation and not a fixed amount

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 26, 2018 10:44 PM

Sorcery already affects damage of Firewall and Land Mine, but yeah I guess it could help with summoning even more elementals.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2018 04:20 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Sorcery already affects damage of Firewall and Land Mine, but yeah I guess it could help with summoning even more elementals.

do you like the idea of Eagle Eye?

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 27, 2018 04:28 PM

Yeah it's pretty good, better than before at least, but it takes a lot to make Eagle Eye reasonable.
Scholar always feels a thousand times better to me.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2018 09:36 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Scholar always feels a thousand times better to me.

because it is

for Eagle Eye it would be a way to make an usable skill to somewhat usable. it could work in combination with Scholar

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 27, 2018 10:07 PM

I have been messin' around with Eagle Eye myself, but the only thing I really can do is increase the chance of it actually working and allowing it to learn level 5 combat spells.
That's pretty much the only thing Eagle Eye has over Scholar.

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted February 28, 2018 11:28 AM

I had an original idea about the improvement of Eagle Eye skill. Instead of learning spells from opponent it could give some valuable info like - (with percentage) The artifacts of creature banks or opponent's heroes(in battle). I believe such change would make eagle eye useful for PvP matches.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 28, 2018 01:04 PM

How about some WoG ideas?

Learning: gain xxx experience per day. Get a yy% chance to learn additional skillpoint upon levelup.

(this does make learning a strong starting skill, lol)

Scouting: an additional (xx%) chance of an event. WoG tries to deal with this every step your hero takes and it makes sense but it makes hero movement stuttery as the game recalculates each step. So perhaps a chance on each day. Should be something minor, some resources, maybe a combat opportunity.

Eagle Eye: xx% chance to counter the enemy spell. it would either work as a simple block (this would have to be balanced with low %, since there's a resistance skill in the game that adds only 20% and only against offensive spells) or a chance to cast a direct counterspell "for free" if possible, such as slow after haste.

Scholar: This one has some uses, tho. Mostly to recruit a spell specialist and use scholar to teach his spell to main hero. It's a minor role but at least it's not total dog poop. I like what WoG did here: you learn a random spell every week. It makes secondary scholar specialists kinda strong if you're hunitng for a particular spell in the long run.

First aid: OK, this actually has real uses, especially when creeping with a powerful and fast tier 7 unit on poor hard maps, but I still find it way too marginal for what it does. Perhaps a combination of First aid and Artillery at least... I do like Warfare from WoG, mind you. It makes skills such as artillery have a much higher usage in general. Either that, or buff the tent considerably. Did anyone try to evaluate this one if the tent could actually ressurect troops?

Logistics & Tactics: how about nerfing it ? Must have skills shouldn't be must haves at all.

Offense: maybe a rescale down to 10-15-20 to make it less powerful.

Mysticism: has some use on super poor maps devoid of wells. I'd simply rescale the amount recovered to a percentage in addition to a fixed 2-4-6 points. WoG's 10-20-30% is possibly too strong tho (kinda broken with dimension door, but since dimension door is autobanned anyway...)

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted March 01, 2018 12:12 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 00:14, 01 Mar 2018.

@OrrinIsTheBest

i bet it won't happen. changes gameplay dynamics too much


@Doomforge

even more crazy stuff. i give 0.01% any of those will be taken into consideration. except maybe mysticism

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 01, 2018 10:54 AM

WoG is pretty crazy on the buffs, yeah. It's a start tho. Either that, or remove skills like Eagle Eye and Learning entirely from the game. What is their purpose anyway, to screw you up on a level up? meh.

In a perfect game, when offered Eagle Eye vs. Logistics, you'd actually hesitate for 1 second

If no consensus can be achieved, I'd honestly want the most useless things to be removed (Eagle Eye, Learning). First Aid is also something that's just meh.

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Adventuring Hero
posted March 01, 2018 04:49 PM
Edited by Djangoo at 17:05, 01 Mar 2018.

The template editor is really great, I just miss two things:

1. an option for the template editor to make the subterranean area look like the overworld. It would make for better balanced XXL maps.

The original design of the underground is pretty boring.

2. more consistent area sizes, sometimes some starting areas are 10 times bigger than others.



Best results I got for an 8 player template with an arena like meeting point in the middle (for some 2h vs 6ai scenarios)








@doomforge: you can just ban the unwanted secondary skills from the map/template. I ban artillery, scouting, first aid, mystics, navigation, necromancy, eagle eye, scholar and diplomacy every game, but I just play vs AI and it helps them to create much better heroes. learning I leave in for easier AI levelup.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 01, 2018 05:54 PM

Yeah, but that's making your own rules, right? I mean, it's fine by me (if it suits what the mapmaker is trying to accomplish), but globally, it's like giving an option to nerf necromancy/phoenixes or not. If you're playing with a friend, you may find it difficult to agree upon custom rules. Also, while discussing map strategy, having conflux with 4 phoenixes per week is entirely different than having just two of them per week. Minor thing, but I pay attention to these ("oh, you beat map XXX on impossible? ah, you had phoenix growth un-nerfed. Yeah, anyone could do that." )

In other words, this is WoG territory.

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted March 01, 2018 06:18 PM

Quote:

1. an option for the template editor to make the subterranean area look like the overworld. It would make for better balanced XXL maps.

The original design of the underground is pretty boring.

2. more consistent area sizes, sometimes some starting areas are 10 times bigger than others.

These are properties of original RMG itself, not the templates. VCMI RMG fixes both these issues (at the cost of less irregular zone shapes).
____________
The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted March 03, 2018 06:32 AM

Djangoo said:
2. more consistent area sizes, sometimes some starting areas are 10 times bigger than others.

Castle zone in top-left corner seems strange. I don't think such position and size is possible if it has not a very small base size.

You can try "Rock Blocks" option with diffrrent radiuses. It can make zone sizes better by blocking some territory (see how mt_Jebus temlate is generated).

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Adventuring Hero
posted March 03, 2018 07:09 PM
Edited by Djangoo at 19:12, 03 Mar 2018.

Sav said:
Djangoo said:
2. more consistent area sizes, sometimes some starting areas are 10 times bigger than others.

Castle zone in top-left corner seems strange. I don't think such position and size is possible if it has not a very small base size.

You can try "Rock Blocks" option with diffrrent radiuses. It can make zone sizes better by blocking some territory (see how mt_Jebus temlate is generated).


Yes you are right, the screen with the purple castle town is from a template that a friend made, I checked and he used  quite different settings than me.

With my template I get decent results, sometimes 1 or 2 player get a huge starting area, but I just reroll these.

I really like how the standard Jebus map is made, I wish we could mirror this setting to the underground somehow.

Unfortunately the mt_jebus template is bugged when I open it (cannot connect zone 5 and -1) and when I try to create map in map editor it says that mirror maps are not supported.

But I will try "Rock Blocks" feature, not really done anything with it yet.

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted March 03, 2018 08:05 PM
Edited by Sav at 20:09, 03 Mar 2018.

Djangoo said:
Unfortunately the mt_jebus template is bugged when I open it (cannot connect zone 5 and -1) and when I try to create map in map editor it says that mirror maps are not supported.

It is mirror template, so it is "semi-supported" by HotA: it can generate maps in game with HD-mod, but these maps cannot be opened in map editor and the template can be opened in template editor only with losing mirror settings.

I've meant that mt_Jebus uses "Rock blocks" option, so you can generate it in game and see how it influences zone shapes and sizes.

Jebus Cross (I mean HotA version of it) uses another option: Zone Repultion, it makes all player zones equal-sized. You can also try using it: zone pozitions greatly influence their sizes.

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Adventuring Hero
posted March 03, 2018 10:54 PM
Edited by Djangoo at 23:15, 03 Mar 2018.

Thanks for the help!

I used zone repulsion for this template too, to make sure that the treasure is more likely to be placed in the middle and the starting areas are placed at the corner of the map, so in the ideal scenario, there are no monoliths involved, it sometimes works (see screenshots above)

But for 8 player it is definitely less consistent than for a 4 player map.


template

Uploaded my template, I would appreciate more advice in creating more similar sized starting areas (no underground, XL size preferably, huge seems to work better though)

Now I tried setting Zone sparseness to 0.1 and rocks to 4.0 but there usually is still 1 area significantly bigger than others and often a small one with therefore less loot.

But in the end it is just vs AI, so I can reroll until I get the desired result.

The tool definitely is revolutionary for noob like me because there were so many things I disliked in the original RNG (Pandoras, duplicate castles, mass spells, spamming of wyvern nest, hero upgrade and Dragon Utopia,) and I never bothered to learn to edit them. Now is the first time that I finally can enjoy random maps in H3 to my liking and its great!

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted March 04, 2018 09:42 AM

Zone placement (and therefore shape/size) management is one of the hardest things when creating templates. I've written some information about it, but it is currently only in Russian. You can find it here: template-format. I hope it will be translated to English after some time.

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