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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 51 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 21 22 23 24 25 ... 30 40 50 51 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ericoz
Ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted January 21, 2018 10:33 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath, they never cared to even fix learning which is by far the worst secondary skill in the game.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted January 23, 2018 09:04 PM

Ericoz said:
I wouldn't hold my breath, they never cared to even fix learning which is by far the worst secondary skill in the game.


Hota team members have stated multiple times that there are issues with some secondary skills. Giving buffs for %-based skills is very easy. The only 2 reasons I can think of why they have not done it by this point, is either

A) They're indeed having techical issues in creating creative ways of fixing this issue or

B) They are looking to tackle this issue within one patch.

For example, if you think skill like Mysticism, you will realise there are a lot of core issues in that skill.

Mysticism increases your mana regen, but there are alot of better ways of getting mana in this game:

Sleep over night in town with a Mage guild in it = Restore all your mana.

Visit Well in adventure map (very common object, and most of the time not guarded at all) = Restore all your mana.

Pick up Mystic orb of mana (a freaking treasure artifact) = you get the same bonus as the Expert mysticism would give you. And by combining the 3 treasure artifacts, you receive full mana at the start of the next day.

Overall, there so many ways of gaining much more mana than Mysticism. Even if we multiply it's effects by 10, the skill is still not worth picking.

Just be patient, I'm sure they are still looking for ways of giving us better cast of secondary skills.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 23, 2018 10:09 PM

Hourglass said:
Just be patient, I'm sure they are still looking for ways of giving us better cast of secondary skills.


The whole dilemma lies upon what Hota is aiming for. My understanding is they try to keep faithful to the original game and have Hota feel more like an expansion than a mod. Buff all lesser skills and IMHO you fail with that goal.

All in all, Hota seems heavily focused towards competitive multiplayer, and this is where the danger lies. The spell research mechanism is already questionable in respect of the original balance feel of the game. To me such feature (as well as tweaking skills) feels more wog-like, with the difference that all is closed.

Ericoz said:
I wouldn't hold my breath, they never cared to even fix learning which is by far the worst secondary skill in the game.


HOMM-III does not need fixing to start with. You can make improvements by adding content or polishing general quality of life (UI, shortcuts...), but the game in itself certainly isn't broken. There are imbalances? Sure, but for me is part of the fun.
____________
He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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Javiduc
Javiduc


Adventuring Hero
posted January 23, 2018 10:22 PM

I think bad secondary skills are neeeded in order to make good secondary skills worthy, and make you happy when you get them. If all secondary skills are good then there is no thrill in picking the good ones, and the game gets boring.

I think it would be better to add one or two new secondary skills (if possible) but keep some bad secondary skills to make the choose interesting.


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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 23, 2018 10:25 PM

I found the problem, you should allow to upgrade the creature from Gelu and Dracon. Now AI never upgraded creatures

Learning is a good, you can test in http://en.heroesportal.net/maps/search/mystery%20tour. In there thousands of monsters. You can't understand enemy has thousands of skeletons as Learning was been legend in RoE or try to Sal's maps.

Ok the question of skills, HotA team able to create new and one or two skill. Example of Mining from Heroes 4. I quoted

"Hero produces resources.

Basic: 2 wood and 2 ore over a 5 day period +10% per hero level.
Advanced: 2 wood, 2 ore and 2 other resources over a 5 day period +10% per hero level. The 2 other resources cycle 1 each through gems, mercury, sulfur and crystals - in that order.
Expert: 2 wood, 2 ore and 4 other resources over a 5 day period +10% per hero level. The 4 other resources cycle 1 each through gems, mercury, sulfur and crystals - in that order."

It's just an example. So you can invent what's the skills, remember allow to AI does upgrade creatures. The game becomes much harder and better than new skill. Someone is a good and bad idea. When I play original HoMM. I understand Mining as Learning, if you think it's good idea.
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

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Erdamon
Erdamon


Adventuring Hero
posted January 23, 2018 10:25 PM

*Ability to recruit Portal of Summoning unit with Ctrl-click.
*Ability to fix a Hero so that entering and exiting a castle still leaves him at the top
*Ability to see attacking creature turn, like in VCMI

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted January 23, 2018 10:52 PM

Galaad said:

The whole dilemma lies upon what Hota is aiming for. My understanding is they try to keep faithful to the original game and have Hota feel more like an expansion than a mod. Buff all lesser skills and IMHO you fail with that goal.

All in all, Hota seems heavily focused towards competitive multiplayer, and this is where the danger lies. The spell research mechanism is already questionable in respect of the original balance feel of the game. To me such feature (as well as tweaking skills) feels more wog-like, with the difference that all is closed.



Direct quote from the page 1 of Offical Hota thread:
"HotA is a global add-on for Heroes of might and magic III that extends (and fixes if needed) classical gameplay elements and adds some of its own."

I think they're seeing the imbalances in this game as a problem for the multiplayer especially, that's why they created Spell research, so you would have more possibilities for getting the most important spells.

IMO The new feature was made, because the other option for them was to touch these spells directly - if they heavily nerfed slow for example, I, too, would propably complain that it would drastically change how you play the game. Now they decided to make things more accesiable for all players, and im my opinion that's more original than just nerfing the OP spells down.

Galaad said:
HOMM-III does not need fixing to start with. You can make improvements by adding content or polishing general quality of life (UI, shortcuts...), but the game in itself certainly isn't broken. There are imbalances? Sure, but for me is part of the fun.


I agree with you that SoD is a very good and solid game, and completely playable even today by it's original form.

However, in my opinion the game sure can use some fixes. I think we both agree that for example Learning in it's current state isn't worth picking in any case.

To me the fun comes from hard decisions; if Learning is on par with other secondary skills, I can see myself suddenly struggling between the improved Learning and the more common go-to skills like offense or logistics.

Not all things need to be equally good, but there must be a reasonable amount of instances where picking up the now underpowered skills can be considered as a good play.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 23, 2018 11:49 PM
Edited by Galaad at 23:52, 23 Jan 2018.

@Hourglass

What I like in this game is not to chose between two good skills, it's to adapt and play with what I get. Making good use of non-optimal paths to win when odds are against me is a much more fun experience. Of course when I get everything perfect I'm thrilled, but that is because I won't every single time. The RNG is part of the adrenaline and toning it down (spell research, witch hut...) is not improving the game in my opinion, but deteriorating it. It's going against the spirit of how the game is to be played. Who are you to decide a game still heavily played 15 years later needs fixing? Irony is h7 made a game with non random skills so you can chose exactly and strategize accordingly, with a similiar mindset than many suggestions in this thread, yet no one is playing it.
I am actually considering downgrading my Hota version, if I want something different I have wog that benefits from much more content and flexibility.
____________
He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 24, 2018 09:03 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 09:05, 24 Jan 2018.

It's cool that not everything is equally strong, but some things are just incredibly useless, while others are incredibly powerful and it would'nt hurt to even things out a bit imo.
Incredibly useless: Learning, Eagle Eye (and the 3 EE artifacts), First Aid, Mysticism and Ballistics, (except for AI which absolutely needs it and perhaps in some early battles) Hypnotize, Slayer, Magic Mirror, certain hero specialities like Melodias Fortune.
Incredibly useful: Town Portal, Fly, Dimension Door, Resurrection/Animate Dead, Berserk, Blind, Slow, Haste, Logistics, Offense, Armorer, Wisdom, Earth Magic, Air Magic, Logistics/Offense/Armorer specialists, Cloak of the Undead King, Wizard's Well, Angel Wings, Shackles of War, Tome of Earth or Air etc.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 24, 2018 09:21 AM

phoenix4ever said:
It's cool that not everything is equally strong, but some things are just incredibly useless, while others are incredibly powerful and it would'nt hurt to even things out a bit imo.


I know this what you and some others posting in this thread think, I only disagree 100%.
In the end it's their mod so they do what they want, if I don't like what they do I just stop play the mod is all.
____________
He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 24, 2018 09:42 AM

Ballistic is not useless, it is exceptionally good when playing hard maps vs AI. A skill which allows you to enter in the town on first round, but also which allows you to remain outside as long as you want, by blocking gate. Without ballistic, most interesting and impressive battles would not be possible.  

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 24, 2018 11:30 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:33, 24 Jan 2018.

Ballistics is hardly ever useful vs AI, it charges right out of the gate anyway. And the few losses that might occur from arrow towers can easily be brought back with Res/AD or you can use Earthquake, Air Shield, Teleport or cyclops.
It might be different vs humans and in early battles, but vs AI Ballistics is pretty useless imo.

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted January 24, 2018 12:56 PM

Galaad said:
Who are you to decide a game still heavily played 15 years later needs fixing?

The reason it is heavily played even today is because some people keep fixing and adding stuff non-stop to make this great game even more amazing. As to your rage about HotA crew's decisions i think it is pretty normal since what they do is changing original elements of the game. But on the other hand what they do is exactly what competitive play needs - balance.Yeah,their ideas might not be the best but i believe over time everything that seems to be out of place will be just fine.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 24, 2018 03:36 PM

OrrinIsTheBest said:
Galaad said:
Who are you to decide a game still heavily played 15 years later needs fixing?

The reason it is heavily played even today is because some people keep fixing and adding stuff non-stop to make this great game even more amazing.


Sorry but that is just speculation, with no exception all the people I know IRL play SoD, my bet is there is more folks who bought the Ubi 'hd' than there is hota/wog players, but hey, neither of us have the numbers.

Quote:
As to your rage about HotA crew's decisions i think it is pretty normal since what they do is changing original elements of the game. But on the other hand what they do is exactly what competitive play needs - balance.


Oh please no it's no rage, just disappointment in the path the mod is taking, but it's no biggie I'll just roll back to previoud version, like I said it's their project so they can do what they want with it.
Competitive play needing balance is IMO a chimera for this game in particular as I believe there is more strategy and fun dealing with situations than balancing everything, but that is nothing else than difference in opinion.

Ps. Orrin is not the best, and that OTOH is fact.
____________
He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Known Hero
posted January 24, 2018 03:56 PM

Galaad said:


Ps. Orrin is not the best, and that OTOH is fact.

Too lazy to create a new account

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted January 24, 2018 04:05 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Ballistics is hardly ever useful vs AI, it charges right out of the gate anyway. And the few losses that might occur from arrow towers can easily be brought back with Res/AD or you can use Earthquake, Air Shield, Teleport or cyclops.
It might be different vs humans and in early battles, but vs AI Ballistics is pretty useless imo.


Thats so untrue.

Its perfect vs AI
Vs humans sucks

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted January 24, 2018 04:07 PM

Will we ever get any more towns?

Cathedral sure looked lovely. Normal Castle is so boring and dull. Only boring people play as goody-two-shoes...
____________

Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 24, 2018 04:43 PM

phoenix4ever said:
but vs AI Ballistics is pretty useless imo.


Well hopefully you added "imo" because thats simply ignorant. Ballistic allows amazing battles in custom maps because it allows keeping the wall intact

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 24, 2018 04:54 PM

Okay maybe also on specific maps where you for some reason DON'T want to destroy the walls, but on normal maps I find it pretty useless. (I don't really have to add "imo" every time do I, it should be obvious.)

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 24, 2018 05:08 PM

On normal maps and vs AI, any skill is useless. You can win the game with specialist eagle eye and having only crap skills, after waiting 2 months before building first dwelling and moving hero out. No kidding, AI alone and not customized is no match.

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