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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 39 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 35 36 37 38 39 · «PREV
Lth3
Lth3


Adventuring Hero
posted June 27, 2018 08:49 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 08:50, 27 Jun 2018.

NimoStar said:
Not only that but you can't have negative luck to negate, as opposite to with morale where you could have like -3, making Castle grail more worthwhile.

you can have negative Luck

NimoStar said:
Lth said:
- all lvl 7 units turn to Bone Dragons in the Skeleton Transformer

Not all. You shoudn't be able to turn Firebird for example because it costs less...

it costs more - 2000 gold compared to 1800 for a Bone Dragon

NimoStar said:
and that would make confluc/necropolis even more OP.

tell me how they are OP in current conditions

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted June 29, 2018 12:22 PM
Edited by blob2 at 12:53, 29 Jun 2018.

@Gandalf196

I'm not against changing Wizards statwise, although I'm more about adding stuff by HotA team, other then the pursuit of "perfect balance". Lore-wise there's this guy http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Kurl, a descendant-from-barbarians-turned-Wizard-King. Maybe heritage was their cue? There's not a lot more on Wizard Kings I believe, other then that they were powerful and enslaved many races. Or maybe it was supposed to show Wizards transgression from Arcane/Mystic scholars into battle-hardened veterans or leaders more focused on honing battle-tactics which is also an aspect of Knowledge? Plus we all know HoMM franchise doesn't exactly have the most consistent lore and some things were added out of fun (Beholders or space demons anyone?).

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2018 03:25 PM

blob2 said:
@Gandalf196

I'm not against changing Wizards statwise, although I'm more about adding stuff by HotA team, other then the pursuit of "perfect balance". Lore-wise there's this guy http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Kurl, a descendant-from-barbarians-turned-Wizard-King. Maybe heritage was their cue? There's not a lot more on Wizard Kings I believe, other then that they were powerful and enslaved many races. Or maybe it was supposed to show Wizards transgression from Arcane/Mystic scholars into battle-hardened veterans or leaders more focused on honing battle-tactics which is also an aspect of Knowledge? Plus we all know HoMM franchise doesn't exactly have the most consistent lore and some things were added out of fun (Beholders or space demons anyone?).


It could be lore, but as Maurice stated, it probably was a last minute change adopted to balance the weaknesses of the armies of Tower. I believe this too, because this leaning towards might was not seen, neither in Heroes III's predecessor, in which the Wizards debuted (and their scaling is correct, as I showed here:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43966&PID=1458134#focus), nor in its successors. In fact, in Heroes V, they're the only pure magic class statwise:

Let us not forget that Heroes V also got rid of this dreadful post level 10 scaling, therefore all the classes keep their identity throughout the game, which is move a in the right direction, imho. In fact, by level 21, the classes should look like this:

Of course, this is an statistical trend. However, there is an interesting way to force this exact distribution to occur: either by providing fixed level-up charts, or by fixing the exact distribution to occur in certain levels, so, e.g.: let's say our knight got to level 18 with 3 spellpower, therefore he cannot gain a single point anymore in this primary skill, until he reaches level 21, for he reached his cap, as all knights that reach level 21 must have the same distribution of stats.
Regarding your point about Wizard-kings and barbarian heritage, I think this could actually be reflected in their stats, but not to the point of dampening their magic. Maybe their pre level 10 scaling could be 15/5/40/40 and post level 10 it would be equal to all the other magic-focused classes 20/20/30/30.

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portus
portus


Hired Hero
posted June 29, 2018 04:35 PM

I'm more inclined to think as Maurice too. It wouldn't be the first inconsistent decision made. Just think of necropolis getting first aid tents, inferno getting ammo carts and so.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 29, 2018 04:45 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 16:46, 29 Jun 2018.

portus said:
Just think of necropolis getting first aid tents, inferno getting ammo carts and so.

Always thought this was stupid.
Necropolis and Castle should switch war machines, Clerics also have the highest chance of learning First Aid, yet they can't buy a tent. Dungeon and Inferno could also switch war machines, would also make more sense this way.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2018 04:47 PM

portus said:
I'm more inclined to think as Maurice too. It wouldn't be the first inconsistent decision made. Just think of necropolis getting first aid tents, inferno getting ammo carts and so.


But that is no reason why we should refrain from making the aforementioned changes, especially now that the team is aiming at balancing magic itself; it is the perfect storm.

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portus
portus


Hired Hero
posted June 29, 2018 09:00 PM

I didn't make myself clear. Actually I'm totally up for the changes you mention, Gandalf. To me, wizards should be very skilled at spell power and excellent at knowledge. Needless to say, in order for their tendency to be desirable, the price of the spells should be raised (or the chances to get big pools should be trimmed)
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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2018 09:31 PM

portus said:
I didn't make myself clear. Actually I'm totally up for the changes you mention, Gandalf. To me, wizards should be very skilled at spell power and excellent at knowledge. Needless to say, in order for their tendency to be desirable, the price of the spells should be raised (or the chances to get big pools should be trimmed)


Oh, ok, I had misunderstood you. So, you would agree with this statment I made some months ago:

"In fact, bearing in mind that the HOTA team intends to balance magic heroes, I think that Wizards, particularly, should have their scaling corrected first, then we'd move to make the neccessary adjusments (starting skills, specialties and even the troops, according to the reason you gave) and not the other way around."

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portus
portus


Hired Hero
posted June 30, 2018 11:35 PM

That's right
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 01, 2018 01:32 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:39, 01 Jul 2018.

Quote:
tell me how they are OP in current conditions


Maybe they aren't but the groth rate of Firebirds is very high and they definitely have the potential to be if they can get joined with a Skeleton Dragon stack.

It is better to give better abilities to the Ghost Dragon such as switching the Wraith regeneration to them (useless in a 18 hp creature).

Quote:
Just think of necropolis getting first aid tents, inferno getting ammo carts and so.


Necropolis gets First Aid Tents because of the "evil scientist frankenstein" subtheme the town has. Remember, Necropolis aren't warlords, they are researchers in a forbidden topic. As such that they don't get a Ballista, and both of their classes have a Spellbook. Remember that, too, they are humans mostly from the "good" kingdoms that get tempted by this knowledge, many of them healers and clerics before turning to the "dark side" for that extra bit.

Their first aid tent building looks like some magic-hydraulic blood pumping device. And healing is some sort of pre-stage before "raising the dead", thus DOCTOR Frankenstein was an actual MD. But they woudn't add faction-specific war machines so it looks weird.

But probably what HOTA did with the cannon would be a better solution for Necropolis: Replace the first aid tent with something suitably "evil-looking" with similar characteristics.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 01, 2018 08:09 AM

NimoStar said:
But probably what HOTA did with the cannon would be a better solution for Necropolis: Replace the first aid tent with something suitably "evil-looking" with similar characteristics.

That's an idea.
I still don't understand how First Aid works on undead or elementals, golems and gargoyles in the first place though.

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Lth3
Lth3


Adventuring Hero
posted July 01, 2018 09:08 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 09:08, 01 Jul 2018.

NimoStar said:
Quote:
tell me how they are OP in current conditions


Maybe they aren't but the groth rate of Firebirds is very high and they definitely have the potential to be if they can get joined with a Skeleton Dragon stack.


nah. that's only a fixed +1 bird per week for an additional 5k gold, totalling 20k gold and 25 mercury to get 3 birds a week

frequency of externals shouldn't be an issue too

aren't you here to promote WOG or something? seems like you're not entirely familiar with HotA changes

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Adventuring Hero
posted July 02, 2018 02:25 AM
Edited by Gandalf196 at 02:29, 02 Jul 2018.

NimoStar said:
Quote:




Necropolis gets First Aid Tents because of the "evil scientist frankenstein" subtheme the town has. Remember, Necropolis aren't warlords, they are researchers in a forbidden topic. As such that they don't get a Ballista, and both of their classes have a Spellbook. Remember that, too, they are humans mostly from the "good" kingdoms that get tempted by this knowledge, many of them healers and clerics before turning to the "dark side" for that extra bit.

Their first aid tent building looks like some magic-hydraulic blood pumping device. And healing is some sort of pre-stage before "raising the dead", thus DOCTOR Frankenstein was an actual MD. But they woudn't add faction-specific war machines so it looks weird.

But probably what HOTA did with the cannon would be a better solution for Necropolis: Replace the first aid tent with something suitably "evil-looking" with similar characteristics.


Absolutely brilliant! I had never thought this way and, indeed, now I think it makes total sense. Indeed, Mary Shelley herself, in her introduction to the 1831 edition of Frankenstein, notes that some unspecified "experiments of Dr. Darwin" (alluding to Dr. Erasmus Darwin, grandfather of Charles Darwin) were part of her inspiration Erasmus advocated evolution long before his grandson, in 1770, he coined the motto E conchis omnia, or "Everything from shells". And that is precisely the philosphy behind necromancy, everything from bones. Even better: there are no fundamentally different creatures when the world is seen through the lenses of necromancy, just different arrangements of bones.
Speaking specifically about the tent, again (again), Heroes V managed to deliver a beautiful implemention, that may serve as inspiration to your suggestion:


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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted July 02, 2018 10:23 AM
Edited by phe at 10:53, 02 Jul 2018.

regarding this
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=43966&PID=1457948#focus
at least we have more attacking magic hero class among good towns rather than balanced or defencive clerics and druids...apparently mages like knowledge and buffing debuffing spells rather then offensive magic...exept Solmyr who got Sorcery and Chain Lightning speciality...

as it comes to make mages and other magic heroes more competitive to might heroes try out >Heroes in LAFE Mods for VCMI...

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 11, 2018 03:53 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 15:55, 11 Jul 2018.

Suggestion for 4 new treasure artifacts:
* An object giving +2 Morale, but -1 Luck. (Good if you have Luck, but not Leadership, might also give Melodia and Daremyth a reason to cast Fortune or for a hero defending a Rampart.)
* An object giving +2 Luck, but -1 Morale. (Good if you have Leadership, but not Luck also good for Necropolis armies or for a hero defending a Castle.)
* An object giving +3 Morale, but -2 Luck. (Good if you have Luck, but not Leadership, might also give Melodia and Daremyth a reason to cast Fortune or for a hero defending a Rampart.)
* An object giving +3 Luck, but -2 Morale. (Good if you have Leadership, but not Luck also good for Necropolis armies or for a hero defending a Castle.)

Alternatively some of the already existing +1 Morale/Luck artifacts could be changed in to some of the above.

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Crusader2010
Crusader2010

Tavern Dweller
posted July 15, 2018 07:27 PM
Edited by Crusader2010 at 20:25, 15 Jul 2018.

My suggestions for HOTA:

1) Interface and usability suggestions:

a) The popup message for retreating during a battle should have a 3 second timer on the "Yes" option before it becomes clickable, to prevent accidental validation. Same for surrendering.

b) Pressing Escape should not bring up the "Do you want to quit?" message when on the adventure map (or simply implement a timer like on point a) ). It should close any open window, though.

c) Allow scrolling the map with W/A/S/D keys.

2) Spells (and skills, a little)

a) Make Dispel a level 3 or 4 spell (should be at least the same level of "Antimagic" in my opinion);

b) Make "Protection from..." spells more useful in order to make spells like "Slow" less overpowered.
- they could give a chance of by 20/30/40% to negate an enemy spell debuff cast on your protected units;
- also, if the hero knows Eagle Eye, a spell that failed to be negated (on a protected unit) has its effect reduced 20/30/40% instead (depending on the Eagle Eye skill);
- for balance purposes, maybe make the Expert level of the spell affect 1 or 2 more friendly units, randomly chosen, together with the one you cast it on (so no mass protection);

c) Remove the "mass" effect from the more imbalanced spells (slow, haste, shield, etc) and:
- either create new level 4-5 spells that have the "mass" effect but with a reduced effectiveness (e.g. 20% / 30% / 40% mass slow; could be a lot more balanced with the changes from point a) too );
- or, give a 20/30/40% chance to affect additional units (1 for advanced, 2 for expert), randomly, and link this chance to other magic related skills (e.g. Advanced/Expert Eagle Eye allows for 1/2 additional units);

d) To summarize the skill changes:
- Eagle Eye could allow for:
-- +20/30/40% (so a maximum of 80%) chance to affect 0/1/2 additional enemy units with your non-damage spells that can also affect additional units (i.e. not Blind for example);
-- Any enemy spell that failed to be negated by a "Protection from [magic school]" buff will have its effect reduced by 20/30/40%;
-- Heroes with Eagle Eye specialty get a flat +10% bonus to the above chance and a +15% to the effect reduction strength;

- Mysticism could allow for:
-- Expert level allows you to cast (maybe just level 1 ?) spells on magic immune friendly units;
-- Allows 0/1/2 additional friendly units to receive the effect of a spell that can affect additional units (e.g. the Protection spells from point a) );
-- Heroes with Mysticism specialty can cast level 1-4 spells on friendly magic immune units and "Dispel" clears only the level 1-2 spells from your units;

- Expert Wisdom also allows your friendly "Dispel" to not remove "Protection from..." from your units;

I would go for both removing the "mass effect" from the overpowered spells, giving them a chance to affect additional units, AND create a "mass" version for them that is level 4/5 in the magic guild. This way the Wisdom skill becomes more useful (i.e. do you want a 100% chance, without protections, to slow every enemy unit slightly less, or do you go for a chance to affect additional units and maybe require other skills to make it effective?), as well as some other currently unused skills.

3) Effects

a) Allow Luck above +3 and below -3 to have an impact on the game:

- add a secondary chance for an improved effect. For example, having +4/5/6 Luck will give a 20/40/60% chance that the Lucky hit adds +100% additional damage instead of +50%. Same idea for very negative Luck(-4/5/6): from -50% damage to -75% damage.

- any amount of Luck above 6 adds a flat +5% to the above chance. Heroes with Luck-related specialties receive a flat +10% bonus to the above chances. Might also be good to limit the maximum chance to 85-90%.

b) Allow Morale above +3 and below -3 to have an impact on the game:

- add a secondary chance that the extra (morale) attack is Lucky. For example, having +4/5/6 Morale will give a 15/30/45% chance that the second hit is Lucky. Same idea for very negative Morale(-4/5/6): the unit both misses its attack (like common negative morale) AND receives a debuff that forces it to do an Unlucky hit the next time it attacks something.

- any amount of Morale above 6 adds a flat +5% to the above chance. Heroes with Morale-related (e.g. Mirth) specialties receive a flat +10% bonus to the above chances. Might be good to limit the maximum chance to 75-80%.

- since Morale is usually easier to get than Luck, the chances I've suggested are lower. Also, both Luck and Morale effects will synergize together nicely.

c) Create a new combination artifact from the three that give negative luck, with the following effect: lucky hits from enemy units do 25% less damage, while their unlucky hits' damage gets reduced by 15% more (maybe multiplicative and not additive?).

d) Create a new combination artifact from the three that give negative morale, with the following effect: enemy units' morale attacks have a 25% chance to get negated (the unit will still keep the moves it made)

Thanks
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