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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 98 pages long: 1 10 20 30 ... 39 40 41 42 43 ... 50 60 70 80 90 98 · «PREV / NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 29, 2018 11:28 PM

Learning is hard to balance, since some maps requires heroes to reach a specific level to open quest guards or complete quests, so heroes with Learning has an advantage here or Learning might even become a must have skill in certain maps. (Having a Learning specialist in HotA makes things trickier to balance.)
So what would be the appropiate xp bonus, double or triple or quadruple the current bonus? Or should the skill do something else entirely?

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 09:59 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 10:32, 30 Jul 2018.

Learning - 15% / 30% / 50%, so that normal hero gets 50% more and Learning specialist gets double experience

Mysticism - 2(3) / 5(6) / 9(10), extra(total) per day

Thant could become 2nd Learning specialist or one of the many Mysticism specialists. however if Mysticism restores more sp then that Animate Dead is gonna rip

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 10:50 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Learning is hard to balance, since some maps requires heroes to reach a specific level to open quest guards or complete quests, so heroes with Learning has an advantage here or Learning might even become a must have skill in certain maps. (Having a Learning specialist in HotA makes things trickier to balance.)
So what would be the appropiate xp bonus, double or triple or quadruple the current bonus? Or should the skill do something else entirely?



One simple way to fix learning could be taking notes from Homm5: Learning gives 5/10/15% more experience but also gives the hero +1 primary stat for every 4/3/2 levels - including the previous levels. Of course, hero would not receive points twice from the same previous level.

I'm not sure if the given primary stats should be all random (meaning each stat would have 25% chance to apply) or should it scale such a way that it would be charismatic to that hero.

I can't imagine all random-option being OP or anything like that. Sure, a hero with Expert learning would have 50% more primary stats, but if each stat has equal chance to happen, might heroes would not have all points given to their beloved attack and defence.

Making these changes would mean these things:

1) Learning is a lot better than it was before and still not overpowered.

2) It would still give more experience, so the old skill is still there. Also, old custom maps that play around you having Learning would still be beatable.

3) Learning was even worse if you would accuire it as your 7th or 8th skill. In this new version there would be no rush of taking it, as it would give you primary stats from your previous levels aswell.

4) There would be no need of thinking how much more experience is too little, and how more is too much. Also, giving flat amount of more experience was best for heroes that are already good anyways aka have good  scaling abilities (low level creature specialists, logistic heroes, Crag, Tazar, Neela etc.) This new version would treat all heroes more equally.

5) Kinkeria could stay as she is.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 30, 2018 11:14 AM

^^ Taking the H5 version is not a bad idea.
I also don't like that you pretty much need start with the skill or get it and make it expert ASAP to get anything out of it. There is no rush with the H5 version like you said. The xp bonus would still be miniscule, but at least there would be some nice stat bonusses. Don't know if the extra stats should be distributed randomly or according to class? (Can't remember how it is in H5.)

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 02:03 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 14:13, 30 Jul 2018.

stat thing is a bad idea. too op

best case scenario - a must have skill for endgame

phoenix4ever said:
I also don't like that you pretty much need start with the skill or get it and make it expert ASAP to get anything out of it.


that is a little bit false logic. what is the point of Scouting when you already cleared most of map? Mysticism when you have 500 sp? Eagle Eye when you already have all spells in your book? many examples

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orrinisthebest
orrinisthebest


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 02:42 PM

Why is it always about changing %-s when it comes to learning? It's clear that however big they get, skill will be always crap-tier. Even making the hero able to unlearn the learned skills is better than 20/30/40 %..

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 02:49 PM

Lth3 said:
stat thing is a bad idea. too op

best case scenario - a must have skill for endgame




Too op? I was thinking it would still not be worth picking.

Did you meant some custom maps where you can get almighty hero with level 50+? The stats usually don't matter at those maps, as you would likely be maxed out anyways, or the map is decided with pulling the right tricks during battles. So Learning would not really shine there anyways.

In normal gameplay conditions however, I like to think that the "max" level is somewhere around level 30. After that point it gets really hard to level up. So, at that point, Expert Learning would give around 15 more primary stat points, that you would not have without it. However, if the chance to roll each skill is 25%, you would end up having around 3-4 of each primary stat more than a hero without Learning.

To be honest I don't really find that so overwhelming. And I would argue that talking about level 30 is kinda pushing it to the skills limits. It might be just powerful enought to grab it as your eight skill, but that just maybe. The best skills such as Logistic, Earth magic and Tactics still give you way more tools and resources than the somewhat raw power you would get from Learning. After all, that's "just" primary skills, and those you can get elsewhere aswell. Unique effects given by some other secondary skills cannot.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 04:05 PM

i am talking about competetive multiplayer. if it's fine for multiplayers - it's fine for everything else

in this case, it's not fine that 1 player gets a lucky pick as his last skill on Learning, while another does not

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 30, 2018 04:36 PM

Hourglass said:

In normal gameplay conditions however, I like to think that the "max" level is somewhere around level 30. After that point it gets really hard to level up. So, at that point, Expert Learning would give around 15 more primary stat points, that you would not have without it. However, if the chance to roll each skill is 25%, you would end up having around 3-4 of each primary stat more than a hero without Learning.

Sounds pretty balanced to me.
In normal games your best hero will probably end up around level 25-30, if not less, so that would be 12-15 bonus stat points. Sure it's better than the original Learning skill, but sounds far from OP.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 06:02 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 18:03, 30 Jul 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
so that would be 12-15 bonus stat points


12/4=+3 attack best case scenario

+3 more attack than your opponent is +15% more damage

that is already like half the Offense skill, believe it or not

i suppose you do not want Learning to be the best skill do you?

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 30, 2018 06:34 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 18:34, 30 Jul 2018.

Hmm when you put it like that, it sounds powerful, but I'm not really sure. Can you even calculate it like that?
It also depends on class, level, artifacts, visited towns and adventure locations, so just because a hero has Learning, does'nt mean he has the best stats. (He could also end with most bonus points going to Knowledge, which might not be very helpful.)
What about a Barbarian facing a Witch, that's the most offensive class vs the least offensive class... (Bet you rather be the Barbarian in that fight?)  

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted July 30, 2018 10:10 PM

i'd be kinkeria easily. if i'd get 15 more different stats - and he wouldn't

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted July 30, 2018 10:14 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 22:16, 30 Jul 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Learning is hard to balance, since some maps requires heroes to reach a specific level to open quest guards or complete quests, so heroes with Learning has an advantage here or Learning might even become a must have skill in certain maps. (Having a Learning specialist in HotA makes things trickier to balance.)
So what would be the appropiate xp bonus, double or triple or quadruple the current bonus? Or should the skill do something else entirely?



As I suggested before... hardcap at level 20... and every following level 13324 XP. Doubled XP for expert learning roughly 6k for every level and everything is fine. It's still super powerful, since spell damage is multiplied with hero level. For the HotA Char... 5% per level should be fine. doubled XP for expert Learning characters means every 6k one level... it should be checked anyway how this would work out in the end with hardcap on experience.

For Mysticism: Pointwise gain and additional percentual gain... +3 (10% max Mana), +5 (15% max Mana), +7 (20% max Mana). This buffs chars with intelligence and caster in general.

phoenix4ever said:
^^ Taking the H5 version is not a bad idea.
I also don't like that you pretty much need start with the skill or get it and make it expert ASAP to get anything out of it. There is no rush with the H5 version like you said. The xp bonus would still be miniscule, but at least there would be some nice stat bonusses. Don't know if the extra stats should be distributed randomly or according to class? (Can't remember how it is in H5.)


Well... it's the same feature that WoG already implemented like 10 years ago. I agree with Lth3 here... additional stat gain is much too powerful.

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sulik
sulik

Tavern Dweller
posted July 30, 2018 11:43 PM

I think it's important that the design of a skill is reasonable. The number can always be adjusted.

The discussion should primarily be about how you want the skill to be perceived. For example, necromancy is overpowered and is reduced by 50% in Hota. Simple fix because necromancy is too awesome to be removed.

However, learning and eagle eyes are different.

For learning, I think it's about gaining levels faster, which can be translated into more primary and secondary skill. Is it a good concept? Is it more fun progressing faster (by using 1/8 secondary skill)? In Fallout 2, it is not.

For eagle eye, it's about learning spells from the enemy. A very interesting mechanism. But then it fails completely in execution, since you are (1) weaker than the enemy by having eagle eye skill instead of spell mastery, combat specialisation, or logistic, (2) the usefulness of the spell learned (if any) is questionable, especially with the spell points and wisdom needed, and (3) one may learn some good spell after a major fight, but that major fight tends to be the last fight as well! So is the mechanism interesting enough to justify a number crunching, or is it incorrigible?
____________

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 31, 2018 12:30 AM

Lth3 said:
i'd be kinkeria easily. if i'd get 15 more different stats - and he wouldn't

The bonus should only apply to xp, not stats, otherwise yes it would be OP.
But I never liked the Learning specialty and Fortress already has one Witch with Wisdom and Learning. (Merist) It's like they made Kinkeria just to justify Learning a little bit. Instead of buffing Learning, they made a boring and mediocre hero.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Known Hero
posted July 31, 2018 01:49 AM

P4R4D0X0N said:

Well... it's the same feature that WoG already implemented like 10 years ago. I agree with Lth3 here... additional stat gain is much too powerful.


I'm not a wog specialist, but I remember the Wog learning not giving the primary skills from previous levels? Getting the buffed from previous levels is kinda the main thing that makes this whole thing any good. However, it's likely that the development team in Homm5 took the idea from Wog.

Lth3 said:
i'd be kinkeria easily. if i'd get 15 more different stats - and he wouldn't


You're giving way too much credit for the primary skills.Secondary skills give some way better, unique tricks, than just raw power. See learning as a late bloomer skill, it should have some growing potential. It only gets somewhat good when you have a high level hero, before that, it's only somewhere between bad and sub-optimal.

You mentioned Offence, so let's compare them:

1) Offence asks you nothing: spend 3 points here, and you have 30% more attack power. In the case of learning, your hero must have obtained a level somewhere above 20, to it get any real value. If you have Learning maxed in first 5 levels, it gives you pretty much nothing. Offence maxed in the same time would give you a huge boost to your army right from the start.

2) Offence would give constantly the 30% boost, but the power you receive from primary stats would vary. The 15% more damage from 3 points you mentioned could easily turn out to be just 7,5%.

3) Your defence/spell power/knowledge would indeed be higher, but as we know might > magic. Points put into power and knowledge are not as good than those you have in attack/defence. And roughly half of these extra points would be sitting there.

This version of Learning would sure make it better, but evenly dividing the primary stats points makes sure that even on level 30 this skill doesn't get out of hand. It asks you to do a lot of effort, and delivers something back. It should be pickable, but not always. And I think that's pretty healthy state for any skill.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 31, 2018 08:50 AM

I would make Learning enable more secondary skills. One extra secondary skill per level of Learning.
But take off the XP bonus.

As for Eagle Eye, it would be useful to remove all other prerequisites from spell learning (such as wisdom), buff probabilities, make it apply to all levels of spells, and include special spells cast by creatures (now it only applies to heroes)
An extra random spell by each level advance would not hurt either.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 31, 2018 10:17 AM

NimoStar said:
I would make Learning enable more secondary skills. One extra secondary skill per level of Learning.


That would make the skill mandatory. Not taking it would mean you gimp your Hero in the long run.

Quote:
An extra random spell by each level advance would not hurt either.


This actually only makes the Eagle Eye skill even worse; the more spells you learn, the less useful it becomes.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 31, 2018 10:59 AM

Maurice said:
This actually only makes the Eagle Eye skill even worse; the more spells you learn, the less useful it becomes.

I think he meant a random spell per basic/advanced/expert Eagle Eye. That would make it a little better, but it takes a lot to make Eagle Eye worth anything.

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Rakso
Rakso


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2018 01:09 PM
Edited by Rakso at 13:11, 31 Jul 2018.

My idea for eagle eye would be like that:

Basic:
The hero can see which spells is gonna be able to learn from shrines and scrolls placed around the map in a radius of 7 squares from himself.

Advanced:
The radius of sight is increased by another 7 squares. On this level a hero is capable to see which spells can be learned from cleansing a pyramid bank and artifacts which will be given if victory condition on any sort of bank or places like Warriors Tomb is achived. Also, the hero can now learn spells from all magic guilds from the radius of the abylity without any need to visit a city(yet still must stand in a city and pass a turn there in order to regain mana).

Expert:
The radius of sight is increased by 6 squares(to the maximum of 20 squares sight). On this level thus to the abylities mentioned above the hero is capable to look into an opponent hero spellbook(thus seeing his level of spells(his mastership in cerain spells(is it basic, advanced or expert) just like looking into his own), also the Expert Eagle eye skill would display current mana points of the opponent hero together with his spellpower and knowledge stats.

Let me know of your thoughts. I didn't made it OP, but surely a help in a tactical management of movement points and a spy-opponent abylity, which can help in planning a fight. Good thing for PVP imho.

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