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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 20 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 · «PREV / NEXT»
Hourglass
Hourglass


Hired Hero
posted March 22, 2017 09:21 PM

phoenix4ever said:
@verriker Eagle Eye won't be useless unless you have learned every spell, which is pretty hard unless you find a Conflux with the grail.


The problem is, that you don't need the majority of the spells. I'm pretty sure most players would be really happy if they got 10 specific spells and even something like 5 I would be really happy with. Remember that learning the non-important spells does not increase your chances of getting the most wanted spells.

I kinda like Maurice's idea; I was personally thinking that EE's level of power would be higher if the spell was learned in the moment when the opponent casts a spell, but your idea is even better, since it gives you the advantage to use the spell before it was used against you.

I'm pretty sure this would still not worth the skill slot most of the time, it would depend on the map; the bigger the map is, the less you would want Eagle Eye. This can be true with all skills, but it is especially true with EE.

It's kinda sad that after these few pages we have been talking about Eagle Eye, I feel that it still stands in the bottom of the skill pile. It doesn't help if Learning or First Aid are worse, being the best of worst doesn't impress anyone.

I like to compare Eagle Eye to Leadership or Luck - skills I don't any of my heroes to have. Still, I feel even the boosted versions of Eagle Eye don't come close to those skills.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 22, 2017 11:22 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 23:40, 22 Mar 2017.

^ I'll put together the ideas suggested by Maurice and phoenix4ever and myself into this final form of a proposal for EE:


IN COMBAT:

Untrained: no effect (i.e. you need the skill to benefit from it).

Basic: Up to 3 times per battle, allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Level 1 or Level 2 Spell from that spellbook instead of his own. Own Magic School skill applies instead of enemy Hero's skill. Upon each such cast, 40% of the required mana is siphoned from the enemy hero. Learns the cast spell with 100% chance, and has a 40% chance to learn any other level 1-2 spell in the enemy spellbook (without needing them to be cast by anyone). FRIENDLY OR FOE, the hero has a 40% chance to learn a level 1-2 spell cast by a creature in combat.

Advanced: Up to 4 times per battle, allows casting level 1-2 spells from enemy spellbook AT 1 LEVEL HIGHER THAN HIS OWN (no upgrade if normal prerequisites are not there), or level 3-4 spells at his own level (at Basic Level if no training, as if he has Advanced Wisdom). Upon each such cast, 50% of the required mana is siphoned from the enemy hero. Learns the cast spell with 100% chance, and has a 50% chance to learn any other level 1-4 spell in the enemy spellbook (without needing them to be cast by anyone), but in both cases ONLY IF required prerequisites are there. FRIENDLY OR FOE, the hero has a 50% chance to learn a level 1-4 spell cast by a creature in combat, but ONLY IF the prerequisites are in place.

Expert: Up to 5 times per battle, allows casting level 1-2 spells from enemy spellbook AT 2 LEVELS HIGHER THAN HIS OWN (no upgrade if normal prerequisites are not there), or level 3-4 spells AT 1 LEVEL HIGHER THAN HIS OWN (no upgrade if normal prerequisites are not there), or level 5 spells at his own level (at Basic Level if no training, as if he has Expert Wisdom). Upon each such cast, 60% of the required mana is siphoned from the enemy hero. Learns the cast spell with 100% chance, and has a 60% chance to learn any other level 1-5 spell in the enemy spellbook (without needing them to be cast by anyone), but in both cases ONLY IF required prerequisites are there. FRIENDLY OR FOE, the hero has a 60% chance to learn a level 1-5 spell cast by a creature in combat,  but ONLY IF the prerequisites are in place.


ADVENTURE:

Enables looking at enemy hero spellbook if the enemy hero is within his scouting range. Also enables looking at the mage guild of an enemy town if it's within scouting range. Gives a chance equal to Eagle Eye skill to successfully cast an adventure spell (chance to be rolled upon attempt to cast, so an attempt can fail or succeed) once per turn (a failed attempt this turn means no other chances this turn). Eligible adventure spells are determined per Eagle Eye level: Untrained (none), Basic (Levels 1-2), Advanced (Level 1-4), Expert (Level 1-5). A successful casting of an adventure spell will teach that spell with 100% chance, but ONLY IF required prerequisites are there.

As before, ALL percentage values above are to be amended by artifact or specialty bonuses.


WHAT THIS MEANS is that the skill becomes very useful throughout the game from early to late against human or AI players alike.

1) Not only it can teach you new spells upon encounter of secondary enemy heroes (WITHOUT NEEDING THEM TO CAST THOSE SPELLS), it enables you to cast spells from enemy spellbook (even if you already know those spells) AT SIGNIFICANT EXPENSE OF ENEMY MANA (up to 60% plus artifacts plus EE specialties, which in total can hit from 90% for regular heroes and to 100% for EE specialty heroes) AND AT POTENTIALLY HIGHER LEVELS THAN OWN (read above if you missed this).

2) The ability to learn from creatures means you don't have to wait to face the enemy to reap some benefits out of this skill.

3) Add on top the ability to look into enemy mage guilds and learn adventure spells from enemy hero or town.


Edited with bold.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 22, 2017 11:26 PM

thGryphn said:
^ I'll put together the ideas suggested by Maurice and Galaad and myself into this final form of a proposal for EE:



Err I don't recall suggesting anything?
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 22, 2017 11:30 PM

Galaad said:
I actually like the idea of EE making the hero learn from creatures, it slightly improves the skill without changing its meaning.


But you did

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 22, 2017 11:32 PM
Edited by Galaad at 23:35, 22 Mar 2017.

But that suggestion was not made by me, I just said I liked it.

I have no part in that post.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 22, 2017 11:38 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 23:41, 22 Mar 2017.

Galaad said:
But that suggestion was not made by me, I just said I liked it.

I have no part in that post.


OK, it seems it was phoenix4ever first in this thread with that idea, so I credited him instead

And fixed a few things in the above proposal...

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 22, 2017 11:47 PM

Thank you, and I mean, I only liked the learning from creatures part, the rest I think it changes too much.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 22, 2017 11:57 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 23:57, 22 Mar 2017.

Galaad said:
Thank you, and I mean, I only liked the learning from creatures part, the rest I think it changes too much.


If so much didn't need to be changed we wouldn't be discussing about fixing EE, would we? I mean, everybody agrees it's a junk skill as it is... So, some drastic change is needed to make it a viable choice. The changes I believe are within the spirit of what EE is, but maybe not everyone will agree...


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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 23, 2017 12:06 AM

I don't think EE was ever meant to be a top skill, but is rather situational for secondaries. If you turn it into a viable choice for a main you change its nature by default, but that's just my opinion.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 23, 2017 12:24 AM

Galaad said:
I don't think EE was ever meant to be a top skill, but is rather situational for secondaries. If you turn it into a viable choice for a main you change its nature by default, but that's just my opinion.


I don't think NWC thought of it specifically for secondary heroes, but as secondary to some other skills. The problem is that it's so bad that it subtracts from the game experience. You know it because you would rather have an empty slot than have it at all, 99% of the time.

I don't mean to make it a game-changing or a must-have skill, and it wouldn't be even with the above proposal. It would though become a skill you would consider as "useful" even for your main. Especially a magic hero could possibly consider it even instead of Wisdom.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 23, 2017 12:28 AM
Edited by Maurice at 00:47, 23 Mar 2017.

While I like the overall suggestion, the one thing I am pondering on a more general level is the complexity of the Skill's effect and description as you've written it now. If you set it off against other Skills, they're not nearly as complex.

Edit:

Why not simplify it as follows? I've cut a few of the more exotic skill pecularities, like the boost to Magic School that you added (I don't see how that would fit naturally with the concept of the Skill, besides giving needless complexity in the Skill description). You can add the Magic School stuff simply in the interface, by presenting the Spell book with frames around the spells based off of the Magic Schools of the Hero with Eagle Eye looking at the opponents' spellbook. No need to state that explicitely with the description.

I also oppose the idea of applying the skill to level 5 spells, since skills like Scholar also exclude those - and with in my opinion for valid reasons.

IN COMBAT:

Untrained: no effect (i.e. you need the skill to benefit from it).

Basic: Up to 3 times per battle, allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Level 1 or Level 2 Spell from that spellbook instead of his own. Of the required mana, 40% is siphoned from the enemy hero. Adds the cast spell to the Hero's spellbook. Has a 40% chance to learn any Spell up to level 2 cast during combat.

Advanced: Up to 4 times per battle, allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Spell up to level 3 from that spellbook instead of his own. Of the required mana, 50% is siphoned from the enemy hero. Adds the cast spell to the Hero's spellbook if he could learn the spell otherwise. Has a 50% chance to learn any Spell up to level 3 cast during combat if he could learn the spell otherwise.

Expert: Up to 5 times per battle, allows the player to look at the enemy Hero's spellbook and cast a Spell up to level 4 from that spellbook instead of his own. Of the required mana, 60% is siphoned from the enemy hero. Adds the cast spell to the Hero's spellbook if he could learn the spell otherwise. Has a 60% chance to learn any Spell up to level 4 cast during combat if he could learn the spell otherwise.

The Adventure Map stuff I have no objections against.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 23, 2017 12:58 AM

It's nice that you try to merge Maurice and my ideas thGryphn, but I agree with Maurice that it is way too complicated. Way too many percentages and things to keep track of and I don't know if new players would understand any of it.
I am glad we continue this discussion though, it proves that something really needs to be done about Eagle Eye.
I really don't like the part about mana drain though.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 23, 2017 02:13 AM
Edited by thGryphn at 02:14, 23 Mar 2017.

^ I think you guys misunderstood one thing: I wasn't proposing that whole text to be included as an in-game description. I was wordily describing the idea to readers here

In any case, I included level boosting and mana drain in an effort to make the skill more tangible and sustainable throughout the game. Mana drain was proposed before, as I believe it's really the first thing that comes to mind when you think how to improve EE.

Without both mana drain and level boosting, I don't think EE would be significantly improved. Between the two though, I think level boosting fits EE better. EE is about "seeing through" right? It can be easily interpreted seeing the inner workings of things. So, when the hero looks at the enemy spellbook, he sees "things" better, gaining a wisdom of sorts, albeit temporarily, and can cast the spell at a higher level.

Maurice, the other difference in what you just wrote is that I'd rather enable learning of a spell even without having it cast by the enemy, so any spell on the book could be learned. Chance of learning would be rolled at the end of the combat (instead of upon casting), once per spell, for every eligible spell.


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phonyamerican
phonyamerican

Tavern Dweller
posted March 23, 2017 03:29 AM

Cast from enemy spell book, using enemy Mana?

Very cool.

Now make it very simple and elegant mechanic so people can pick up on it fast. Not too much % complexity.



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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 23, 2017 08:49 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 08:57, 23 Mar 2017.

I see Maurice is opposed to Eagle Eye learning level 5 spells.
I think Eagle Eye and Scholar needs to differentiate from each other though. So it would perhaps be most interesting if Eagle Eye could learn level 5 spells, but not adventure spells.

That means:
Eagle Eye can learn level 1-5 combat spells = 59 spells (only 53 from AI though, since it will never cast 6 of the spells)
Scholar can learn all spells level 1-4 = 60 spells.

Alternatively Eagle Eye could work just like Scholar, learning all spells level 1-4, but that would perhaps be less interesting.

The third option is having Eagle Eye learning all 69 spells, the argument for this is that Scholar works 2 ways and Eagle Eye only 1, so it would be fair that Eagle Eye could learn all spells.

I guess I like option 1 & 3 the most.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 23, 2017 09:03 AM
Edited by Galaad at 09:12, 23 Mar 2017.

thGryphn said:
The problem is that it's so bad that it subtracts from the game experience. You know it because you would rather have an empty slot than have it at all, 99% of the time.


That's not really true, ok this is mainly early game situation but say you lack magic arrow or slow or haste, first battle with an opponent you get a good chance to learn it (against a scout magic arrow is almost guaranteed, you know, cast and flee...). Then maybe you want to get scholar too...

Then probably not everyone plays like me but in middle-game I also have some stationary heroes to defend castles vs secondaries, if the guild lacks the best low level spells EE is the only way for current mercenary to learn them fast.

I don't really wish to start a big argument over this but the game has some luck involved, and luck is not only good luck, sometimes you do a bad roll and you have to deal with it and that's part of the game.

I'm not against improvements, but boosting these skills too much makes a too drastic difference in h3's playstyle (imo), for those kind of changes there is wog and VCMI.
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MCB
MCB


Hired Hero
posted March 23, 2017 12:39 PM

Conclusion: 100 per cent. 5 level spells. Spells from creatures.

And map spells?

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Erathianer
Erathianer


Hired Hero
posted March 23, 2017 04:16 PM

MCB said:
Conclusion: 100 per cent. 5 level spells. Spells from creatures.

And map spells?



i am not sure anout your conclusion. i dont like the spells from creatures and the 100% chance, because i like that EE is a pure pvp skill right now. but thats just my opinion.

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MCB
MCB


Hired Hero
posted March 23, 2017 07:55 PM

What about magic "the bad" mirror? is worst than anti-magic but is level 5. If this spell is only to protect gold dragons, the spell should be exclusive for rampart. What do you think?

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 23, 2017 11:34 PM

I doubled the chance of Magic Mirror working in my game, that makes it slightly more useful. But it seems like the spell was designed as a way of protecting Gold Dragons from implosion, which makes it a very niche spell.

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