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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 89 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 50 ... 56 57 58 59 60 ... 70 80 89 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 21, 2019 04:12 PM

* facepalm *

I want powerful AI, but AI always be dumb/noob. Only you can create AI casts dispel, for example and true player creates impossible map.

Summon elemental is a very important in endgame.

Weak player can't be understand the game/map. And now for weak players writes thread be like write with knowledge. And only strong Salamandre is here. Galaad is also strong but he doesn't write here. A normal event strong never write.

And heroes 3 live in Youtube is a very bored. A dry strategizing, and unskilled.

What I say is true.
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planetavril
planetavril


Known Hero
posted January 21, 2019 07:18 PM
Edited by planetavril at 19:21, 21 Jan 2019.

idea perhaps insignificant, since Sod has his tricks, RoE has his tricks, Ab has his tricks, WoG has his tricks, why not put in HotA of their tricks?

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 21, 2019 10:06 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 22:12, 21 Jan 2019.

phoenix4ever said:
But the biggest challenges are probably Town Portal only takes me to nearest town while AI can go anywhere, No Shackles of War and Wizard's Well disabled and Cloak of the Undead King only makes Skeleton Warriors and much better AI Values for AI when it's casting spells.
I admit the above can even sometimes get frustratingly difficult, mainly because of TP and I need to be VERY offensive and take enemies towns ASAP, so I haven't found the perfect balance yet.


it's not, trust me. on a standard random template AI is really weak and nothing can be done about it, at least for now

you need to start playing multiplayer in order to really pass that skill wall. when i first started multiplayer, i thought my opponent downright cheated on me. but then i found out otherwise, and that painful truth came down upon me

i made rapid progression soon after that though. not the type of character to close into a bubble, that i am

Orrinisthebest said:
Still doesn't change the fact that hero can get it from shrine...


no, really, you can't. i just don't remember on which update or version this change was made

Djangoo said:
It is fine as a lvl 4 spell, 5 is only fair if obtainable only by scrolls/pyramid or artifacts.


this sounds like a legit idea actually

- disable TP/DD/Fly/(WW) from Books, Scrolls, Guilds
- enable Pyramids for only these 4(3) gems

problem solved. you need an adventure map spell - find a Pyramid

additionally

- you can freely select the spell you want from a choice of 4(3) each and every new Pyramid
- make it permanent after choosing, like a Shrine, so any subsequent visitors may also learn that exact spell
- 'Tournament Rules' enable Pyramids with this mechanic, otherwise disable

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 21, 2019 10:37 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 22:56, 21 Jan 2019.

phoenix4ever said:

I admit the above can even sometimes get frustratingly difficult, mainly because of TP and I need to be VERY offensive and take enemies towns ASAP, so I haven't found the perfect balance yet.


Well, the changes I read there are piece of cake, they do not make the game more difficult but only longer to catch AI poor heroes. Basically, instead of opposing good or boosted runners to Usain Bolt - for example, you keep same handicapped opponents but attach to his legs 50 kg heights, what a fun... What is more surprisingly also, is that you can imagine that such tiny penalties will lead to losing game for experienced players, sorry but if you can think that you have no idea how other people play or can play then.  

HERE are my changes for templates single-playing, there is zero penalty for human but many bonuses for AI.

* Gives 30k gold on first day to every AI.
* Set all obelisks to "visited" for every AI.
* AI movement will increase daily by half tile, but no more than 40-60 tiles (4000-6000 mvm points), depending on the difficulty selected. Late recruited AI heroes will start with the bonus, to help leveling faster
* AI heroes are marked, human can't hire them if dead.
* Every day 1 of the week, it places extra creatures in all built dwellings, builds guild up to 2nd level and first three upgraded dwellings in all AI towns (if not build yet). Extra resources too.
* Every AI hero gains a random +1 stat every day and a bonus to his overall experience of 10%-40% (depending on difficulty selected), until level 50. He is given Air, Earth, Archery, Intelligence and Resistance at expert level, all his mana is refueled daily too. He also receives slow, haste and shield.
* At level 15/25 an AI hero is automatically granted with town portal. At 50-60 with Fly.
* All junk AI creatures (joiners etc) are removed from AI garrisons on every day 1.
* Every town AI conquers will be changed to its faction type.
* Every day 1 of the week, every AI player having at least one level 15 hero is given a chance* (depends on the number of AI players in the game) to expand by receiving a free town, randomly picked from available neutral towns. Human player will receive a warning message and a view over the new town acquired:

One AI player: 100% chance
Two AI players: 50% chance
Three AI players: 33% chance
Four AI players: 25% chance

Here is how looks an AI hero on week 2 in such settings:



What you think, is my TP overpowered in this case?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 21, 2019 11:43 PM

This made my evening
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 21, 2019 11:45 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:49, 21 Jan 2019.

I don't think y'all understand the huge disadvantage it is for TP to go only to nearest town, while AI can go anywhere.
Recently I played my map as Rampart and I had 13 Gold Dragons and other Rampart troops about the same weeks growth as Gold Dragons. Then AI decided to attack me out of the blue with 45 Phoenixes, 52 Magic Elementals and other powerful troops. I of course lost all my units, but managed to do some damage when I was kept alive by summoning Earth Elementals. In the end I fleed and hired my main hero again in the town where I had the most troops, main hero took them all and began his quest for revenge against the Phoenix hero.
I won in the end, but it was'nt easy.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 22, 2019 12:14 AM

You don't need TP at all to be everywhere. A good chain can cover a large map and remain functional for all game. That way you can bring your main hero everywhere on the map, granted your towns have a tavern, then army comes using the chain. It is called poor player's TP.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 22, 2019 07:42 AM

Uh yeah I know about chaining, but I need army in my towns to defend them, when I can't just return any time I want. Chaining is not that easy on my map either, it is a two level island map, with one and two way monoliths and whirlpools etc.

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 22, 2019 08:03 AM

We respect for Phoenix game.

Ok my guy might have been invented the poor player's TP in about 16 years ago. And I developed to kill chain heroes or main hero. And then he ponder a rule. Lucky another guy said nothing etc Later on.. do you know Air skill? Without Air has hard task.

SoD campaign offered Air against Necropolis: over the mountain. Do you remember?

And HotA had Town Gate. And then all is fine. You don't need to change TP and DD. To play my maps: Ravnica (HotA) and In The land of Nod (SoD) from maps4heroes. It changes your image/picture.    
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 22, 2019 10:02 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 10:10, 22 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:


Here is how looks an AI hero on week 2 in such settings:



What you think, is my TP overpowered in this case?


this is funny. and ridiculously out of proportion. HotA is about quality, not quantity. and so it doesn't change the fact that AI plays weakly. it just shows you transformed it into some sort of mutant like amalgamation of cosmic junk from radioactive depths of hell

i can see your exageration, because

Salamandre said:
...for example, you keep same handicapped opponents but attach to his legs 50 kg heights...


you would not be able to walk having a 50 kg weight attached to your legs

Salamandre said:
What is more surprisingly also, is that you can imagine that such tiny penalties will lead to losing game for experienced players, sorry but if you can think that you have no idea how other people play or can play then.


i'd say if one is truly experienced, he will adapt to any changes necessary. whether phoenix4ever's changes or anything else. i don't see how disabling TP or DD for example would lead to a loss in multiplayer against a weaker opponent. that's how WCL league worked for a long time - the best players remained the best

i give examples of multiplayer, because really, you need to first test it against other similar level players, in order to see if the scales are balancing properly. how then will you see a disbalance if the sizes on the scales are disproportionate from the very beginning, like in your case, where you boost the AI humongously

ofcourse, with WoG and its crazy proportions you would just boost AI less if you had to disable TP and DD to account for player-side disadvantage in trying to balance the unbalanceable

Ghost said:
* facepalm *

I want powerful AI, but AI always be dumb/noob. Only you can create AI casts dispel, for example and true player creates impossible map.

Summon elemental is a very important in endgame.

Weak player can't be understand the game/map. And now for weak players writes thread be like write with knowledge. And only strong Salamandre is here. Galaad is also strong but he doesn't write here. A normal event strong never write.

And heroes 3 live in Youtube is a very bored. A dry strategizing, and unskilled.

What I say is true.


* do you even lift bro ?! *

or play multiplayer, in this case

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 22, 2019 10:28 AM

Lth3 said:

this is funny. and ridiculously out of proportion. HotA is about quality, not quantity. and so it doesn't change the fact that AI plays weakly.


Neither Hota does, and is the main reason I don't play it but stick to wog which actually lets you get the desired modifications for single player and have a challenging game, not limp and boring as usual. Also, if you had read, my example wasn't about what Hota should do - because I think what they do is perfect for what their goal is, but a response to Phoenix's list of changes, which he said to be so heavy that I would lose the game, always.

Town portal is almost insignificant in a game - it is only comfortable when you have it; there are thousands of custom maps without TP in, hundreds of times more difficult than any of templates, and where people have no problem into winning. There is rushing, chaining, there is abuse of AI by hit&run, there is baiting him away, a bunch of tools available so you don't need to constantly jump between your towns then bicker how TP is overpowered, remove it without alternative then have this change so frustrating that you're the only one to use it.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 22, 2019 11:37 AM

Lth3 said:
[...]and so it doesn't change the fact that AI plays weakly. it just shows you transformed it into some sort of mutant like amalgamation of cosmic junk from radioactive depths of hell

Lol. The funny thing is that the AI will still manage to lose
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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 22, 2019 11:54 AM
Edited by Ghost at 13:24, 22 Jan 2019.

@lth3

Last Christmas I tried to play h3 with him, but he didn't want I and mother come his home. And he might have played heroes in 2008. When last Christmas he said not played heroes nor HotA. But he said rarely or in some day. I think I'm better than him. When I showed him a legion pictures in HC, and I said it's impossible but force field solves the game, etc and he no longer played heroes. We played last 1999-2002 year, I'm sad. When played ia. RoE-SoD campaign, a tiny other, and once H4.

Multiplayer or AI opponent or friend with, my hand moves a mouse fast, and heart beats, if strong shows me, because I feared lose. And I don't want you see my losing game. It's hard playing. Even if my motto is win or lose are all the same, and it comes success. Yes I tried to play, but I hadn't Internet, and nowadays my Internet is a very slow.
     
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 22, 2019 07:10 PM

Can you guys agree about making Town Portal more expensive (24/20 mana) and/or it requirering more/all movement points?

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 22, 2019 09:44 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 22:02, 22 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:
Neither Hota does, and is the main reason I don't play it but stick to wog which actually lets you get the desired modifications for single player and have a challenging game, not limp and boring as usual.


they improved it over SoD actually

in HotA, AI is more likely to:

* split army less
* use better spells in combat
* not run around in circles but attack aggresively
* use DD/Fly/WW/TP when it needs to

and maybe more that i'm not familiar of, as me being not a fan of AI i did not pay much attention to the logs, but can feel the difference when playing +6 AI templates. maybe someone else more knowledgeable will fill in on this

in either case, HotA is waiting for you, Salamandre

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 22, 2019 11:35 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 00:02, 23 Jan 2019.

Lth3 said:
we can make a conclusion that 3DO did not logically assume that 4 times DD is the right amount

Yes, they did. Let's see: you don't have Air, you can cast it once a day, you have basic Air, you can cast it 2 times a day and so on.
This is one thing I'm finding strange in that idea of casting it only once a day, it's the same with all levels of Air magic?

Ghost said:
What I say is true.

Yes, it is. Only weak players can think it's hard to beat seven AI players allied on any usual template. (I say usual cause I still never tried the new ones where starting areas can be differently balanced but I don't believe that can be a problem either). Even in HotA I use to give a bunch of special bonus to AI and that doesn't make the maps that harder and in WoG I always play with the amazing Conquistador from Sal.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 23, 2019 12:11 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 00:12, 23 Jan 2019.

bloodsucker said:
Lth3 said:
we can make a conclusion that 3DO did not logically assume that 4 times DD is the right amount

Yes, they did. Let's see: you don't have Air, you can cast it once a day, you have basic Air, you can cast it 2 times a day and so on.
This is one thing I'm finding strange in that idea of casting it only once a day, it's the same with all levels of Air magic.


because they didn't think of anything better from top of their head. just a linear progression 1-2-3-4. 800/600/400/200 movement points you can say follows the same linear progression as well

i'm not totally against 2 times DD like it is now. important to raise Movement Point cost so Air Magic is actually crucial for DD. not just step 1: find Air Book, step 2: spam DD immediately with all available heroes. you get what i'm saying. don't pretend you don't

bloodsucker said:
Ghost said:
What I say is true.

Yes, it is....


talk about a** licking. do you even understand what he's saying ?

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 23, 2019 12:24 AM

Lth3 said:
talk about a** licking. do you even understand what he's saying ?

I do, even if (as always) it's not easy...
The only way to make a map really hard is to control all/most variables in it, so custom maps can in fact be made hard(er) while things like setting no TP, no DD, TP only to nearest town, etc in template maps can make them longer and boring but will not really require a superior level of expertise.
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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 23, 2019 04:00 AM

What sounds AI bonuses? Setup gives Fear spell to only AI, you can't get it ia. Scholar and Eagle Eye, because of disabled, etc And then gives starting gold and resources to AI. No other, HotA creates a new difficulty level is Heroic. So AI grows legion army, and 3D0 maps you have to search for black orb, etc Player can study heroes One problem people doesn't know what's the Fear.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 23, 2019 10:06 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 23:32, 24 Jan 2019.

bloodsucker said:
The only way to make a map really hard is to control all/most variables in it, so custom maps can in fact be made hard(er)


that's not the point. HotA allows to have original mechanics by disabling 'Tournament Rules'. you can use that for custom maps to have 4x DD and Diplo. 'Tournament Rules', well, is for templates and multiplayer

bloodsucker said:
while things like setting no TP, no DD, TP only to nearest town, etc in template maps can make them longer and boring but will not really require a superior level of expertise.


reread my suggestions. i think you misunderstand something


Lth3 said:
Town Portal:

No Earth Magic - teleport to nearest town once per day and cost 600 movement points
Basic Earth Magic - teleport to chosen town and cost 600 movement points
Advanced Earth Magic - twice per day and cost 400 movement points
Expert Earth Magic - 200 movement points

Dimension Door:

No Air Magic - once per day and cost 800 movement points
Basic Air Magic - 600 movement points
Advanced Air Magic - 400 movement points
Expert Air Magic - 200 movement points
______________________________________________________________________

No Air Magic - once per day and cost 1000 movement points
Basic Air Magic - 700 movement points
Advanced Air Magic - twice per day and cost 600 movement points
Expert Air Magic - 500 movement points

Fly:

No Air Magic - 60% penalty
Basic Air Magic - 40% penalty
Advanced Air Magic - 20% penalty
Expert Air Magic - no penalty


some tweaks here and there. most important factors:

1) Town Portal - max twice per day and need Earth Magic to really benefit
2) DD - once per day and also need Air Magic to really benefit (otherwise high cost, hence will not be spammed every turn)
3) Fly - situational without Air Magic and will be spammed with Air Magic (to keep Fly/DD more or less equally useful and benefiting more from Air Magic)

this way Earth=Air and not Earth>Air in my honest opinion !


also

Djangoo said:
Great suggestions here; my favourites:

- Adventure map spell changes only in tournament mode
- TP stays the same but costs more movement points
- DD 1 or 2 I don't really care but would prefer 1 and reduced movement cost
- DD to Fire seems balanced (fire now also has adventure map spell), but Fire already has tons of spells so I'm not sure about it
- water walk bonus movement points would really boost water nicely, but makes 0 sense lore wise, so rather no


an idea that could possibly work out well

Lth3 said:

- disable TP/DD/Fly/(WW) from Books, Scrolls, Guilds
- enable Pyramids for these 3(4) spells only

problem solved. you need an adventure map spell - find a Pyramid

additionally

- you can freely select the spell you want from a choice of 3(4) each and every new Pyramid
- make it permanent after choosing, like a Shrine, so any subsequent visitors may also learn that exact spell
- 'Tournament Rules' enable Pyramids with this mechanic, otherwise disable

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