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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 02, 2019 08:12 AM |
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Gold Dragons are also immune to Archangels resurrection yes and Archangels do cast Resurrection, so I don't know what that wiki is on about...
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2019 05:28 PM |
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nordos said:
So... I know that this probably isn't the first time it was mentioned, but... Are there any playns on readjusting Fortress?
See, A War Unicorn, which is IMO a stronger unit that a Wyvern Monarch, costs less while having far more health, a bit more attack and blind/magic resistance. The only real downside is less speed and no flying, but that shouldn't mean that a Monarch is justified to cost 150 more gold!
Fortress already has some other problems, like a maximum Magie Guild of 3, quite weak heroes (since their stat distribution is .... not that good, also most have bad skills) and weak Level 7 units (in comparison). So, why is that town so very expensive in addition?! It seems to me that their upgraded version are partly unjustified expensive (for example, a Dragon Fly costs as much as a Royal Griffin, a Greater Basilisk as much as a Crusader(!))
Huh?
I, too, kinda see what you're trying to say, but when discussing about balance, we should see how well the town is overall performing in PvP. And Fortress was never even close of being the bottom tier town. So why would it need some kind of push, if it's already doing decently?
When talking about Wyverns, I would like point out 2 things:
1) One should never compare same level creatures against each other. Or sure we can do that, but that doesn't really tell us anything about the town's strong points. In the battlefield, you're not forced to use your lvl 6 creatures against the opponent's lvl 6 creatures.
Think about necropolis. If you compare level 1-3 creatures with other same level creatures, the Necropolis creatures are laughtably bad (statwise ofc). However, Necro was the either the best or second best town in the original game. This is because the town has it's dominating strengths which easily overcome the bad stats of few early game creatures.
2) Wyverns have many things going for them that Unicorns don't:
a) Wyvern nest is probably the easiest lvl 6 dwelling you can build. You have access to Wyverns from day 1 in Hota.
b) Many PvP games are decided by the power of Dragon Fly hive, and the prize this object gives is arguably best for the Fortress player, since he can build a bigger stack of wyverns than other towns, he can add wyvers to his army without a loss of morale and
- most importantly - he can upgrade his wyverns.
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2019 08:37 PM |
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First, hear me out: I don't want stat changes, I merely want readjustment for the prices - since flies, basilisks and Wyvern aren't worth as much as they cost stat wise (thats where the comparison between the units comes from).
Hourglass said:
I, too, kinda see what you're trying to say, but when discussing about balance, we should see how well the town is overall performing in PvP. And Fortress was never even close of being the bottom tier town. So why would it need some kind of push, if it's already doing decently?
To begin with, what is the measurement you use? A small 1 vs 1 PvP map?
I have no idea what the tier list of towns in PvP is, though some things are quite clear: The larger the map, the better Necromancy, the stronger they are. Some factions need far more rcources to build their buildings (Tower says hello), while other are comparatively cheap. If you have enough recources? In that case I would say Fortress and Inferno are the weakest. Fortress has some disadvantage - the low magic guild being especially crippling. I thought that they should at the very least have some advantage in return, and since most of their heroes are bad, and the stats of their units either average or subpar ...
See, I prefer playing larger, random generated maps. Fortress units are quite bad at killing creeps, always mounting some losses. In return, the units should IMO cost less, allowing to recruit more in comparison to other towns. Some units are fairly priced (T1, T2 and especially Gorgons and Hydras), but why the hell are, for example, the flies so goddamn expensive?
Hourglass said:
When talking about Wyverns, I would like point out 2 things:
1) One should never compare same level creatures against each other. Or sure we can do that, but that doesn't really tell us anything about the town's strong points. In the battlefield, you're not forced to use your lvl 6 creatures against the opponent's lvl 6 creatures.
Think about necropolis. If you compare level 1-3 creatures with other same level creatures, the Necropolis creatures are laughtably bad (statwise ofc). However, Necro was the either the best or second best town in the original game. This is because the town has it's dominating strengths which easily overcome the bad stats of few early game creatures.
True, but wrong in one point as well. If you play Necro, you will try to not buy T1-T3, and prioritize T4-T6. If you then have gold, you buy T7, and only then you buy the rest. It kinda fits into the town, since Necromancy becomes potent in the lategame - meaning, you first have to make to do with subpar units as a handicap. Though, at the same time, Skeletons and Zombies are fair priced (and you can simply not build ghosts, skipping them completely)
Hourglass said:
2) Wyverns have many things going for them that Unicorns don't:
a) Wyvern nest is probably the easiest lvl 6 dwelling you can build. You have access to Wyverns from day 1 in Hota.
b) Many PvP games are decided by the power of Dragon Fly hive, and the prize this object gives is arguably best for the Fortress player, since he can build a bigger stack of wyverns than other towns, he can add wyvers to his army without a loss of morale and
- most importantly - he can upgrade his wyverns.
a) Yes, it is a very easy building to build - in return their stats are comparatively weak. I can accept that, but why the hell are they so goddamn expensive, too?! They should cost something like 750/950! I rather have a normal unicorn than a wyvern (wyvern have flying - unicorns deal more damage, and have chance to blind). I rather have 9 unicorns than 10 wyvern, too, and yet the 10 wyvern cost 8k, while the 9 unicorns cost 7,65k. And what is up with the price increase for the upgrade? Yes, the upgrade is far stronger, but it does not justify a 37,5% increase in the price. Especially if you compare the price to that of other T6 units and take their stats into account (mainly their low health which results into a higher casualty).
b) It really is hard to justify their price due to the possible banks you can use to bolster their ranks. That very concept seems flawed to me personally, as if it is fine to overcharge since you can acquire some of them for free (if you are lucky enough).
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 02, 2019 09:30 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Gold Dragons are also immune to Archangels resurrection yes and Archangels do cast Resurrection, so I don't know what that wiki is on about...
HoMM3 Wiki Resurrection; "*Technically Archangels do not cast Resurrection. See Angel and Archangel for more information."
HoMM3 Wiki Angel and Archangel; "Additionally, a stack of Archangels may cast Resurrection spell once per combat. The effect does not follow any of the Resurrection spell's formulas (including the effects caused by the Rockland terrain), and is always 100 health points per Archangel. Like with Advanced and Expert Earth Magic, the Resurrection effect is permanent."
It means that Archangels technically cast a specific version of Resurrection tailored to them and it is not the same as the spell.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 03, 2019 12:02 AM |
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@Oddball13579 Sure it's a different formula, but they still cast Resurrection.
@Hourglass So Fortress is not bottom tier in PvP huh? I assume that "honor" belongs to Inferno or? Btw are you talking about a newer version of HotA or SoD? I'd be very interested to see a full HotA tier list.
I'm not saying Fortress needs huge buffs either, but maybe some price adjustment like nordos said. And I would'nt mind Wyvern Monarchs having a bit more Defense and/or HP.
Btw if there are no Dragon Fly Hives on the map, I'm assuming Fortress would do worse, or?
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted May 06, 2019 11:15 AM |
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Suggestion: HotA team should introduce werewolf units to the game as neutrals. I'm not a lore maniac so I didn't know, but Werewolves are pretty well-represented in M&M games:
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 06, 2019 03:03 PM |
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I really wish you would add Market of Time in HotA, at least just for map makers to place.
Who said we wanted Eagle Eye for Ash, Archery for Wystan or Learning for Loynis...
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 06, 2019 06:41 PM |
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Edited by nordos at 18:47, 06 May 2019.
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I personally would like some way to interact with view earth / air. For example, in my last game I cast view Air in order to see where the heroes all were. The one in the 'shadows' was easily found (since the contrast was quite big), but the green one near grass lang blended into the terrain so very good that I missed him completely. even after scanning everything twice.
Something like 'clicking' on the right 'menu legend' on an icon (for example the one that represents heroes) could somehow underline the icons on the map, highlighting in to make it easier to see (for example a black outline that gets activated).
On a sidenote: Having view earth / air in Earth / Air school highlights their importance even more. As such, is there any plan on implementing more Fire/Water adventurer / intelligence spells? Basically, the only adventure spell in that schools is Water Walk, and Water Walk is a far worse fly (not counting summon/scuttle boat).
EDIT: Something that puzzles me is, that Necro can have Sacrifice in their guild, even though Sacrifice can't be used on undead creatures o.O
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 06, 2019 08:44 PM |
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nordos said:
EDIT: Something that puzzles me is, that Necro can have Sacrifice in their guild, even though Sacrifice can't be used on undead creatures o.O
They can also have Mirth, Resurrection, Frenzy and Armageddon, which are all useless to undead.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 06, 2019 09:07 PM |
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blob2 said:
Suggestion: HotA team should introduce werewolf units to the game as neutrals. I'm not a lore maniac so I didn't know, but Werewolves are pretty well-represented in M&M games
This is something that I would like to see as well. I mean we have vampires, why not werewolves/werebeasts?
nordos said:
On a sidenote: Having view earth / air in Earth / Air school highlights their importance even more. As such, is there any plan on implementing more Fire/Water adventurer / intelligence spells? Basically, the only adventure spell in that schools is Water Walk, and Water Walk is a far worse fly (not counting summon/scuttle boat).
Two things. One I agree with adding more Fire/Water adventure and intelligence spells. I'm just brainstorming here, bouncing ideas around and seeing what sticks. Perhaps something like View Ocean? Only shows the water on maps and the resources that float in it? Cause View Air reveals artifacts, heroes, and towns. While View Earth reveals terrain, mines, and loose resources. Maybe Fire has something like View Army? But that would be redundant because of Visions. Feel free to add to this.
And secondly, I know Water Walk is not as good as Fly, but it does have some uses. Mainly to cross small bodies of water or get to an island that's in the middle of a lake. Of course 100% more situational than Fly is.
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 06, 2019 09:07 PM |
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Edited by nordos at 21:17, 06 May 2019.
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phoenix4ever said:
nordos said:
EDIT: Something that puzzles me is, that Necro can have Sacrifice in their guild, even though Sacrifice can't be used on undead creatures o.O
They can also have Mirth, Resurrection, Frenzy and Armageddon, which are all useless to undead.
The first three spells are valid - Armageddon can be useful, though, since you could have a huge stack of skeletons which can survive multiple Armageddons, making it a trump against non-immune enemies.
Still, while you could aquire a living stack to use the aforementioned spells on it, you can't use an undead stack for Sacrifice (neither as a target nor as the sacrifice), which puzzles me especially, because Sacrifice is forbidden in other towns (since it is an 'evil' spell), and yet one of the few factions that CAN get it, has absolutely no use of it. At all.
EDIT:
Oddball13579 said:
Two things. One I agree with adding more Fire/Water adventure and intelligence spells. I'm just brainstorming here, bouncing ideas around and seeing what sticks. Perhaps something like View Ocean? Only shows the water on maps and the resources that float in it? Cause View Air reveals artifacts, heroes, and towns. While View Earth reveals terrain, mines, and loose resources. Maybe Fire has something like View Army? But that would be redundant because of Visions. Feel free to add to this.
True, it is pretty hard to find something that would be both useful and not yet be used for those schools. An idea could be, that View Air no longer reveals Heroes, and that Fire does (as in, living beings are considered Fire in nature), which also could reveal roaming armies. Though what usefulness the knowledge of roaming armies would be is kinda questionable, too. Maybe on expert it reveals the tile an army stands on? The shifting of the Hero reveal to the new spell would also weaken View Air which currently seems to be a too powerful spell in comparison to view Earth
Water gets even harder. What is there left? Revealing Water would make it useless if there wasn't a water body at all. Maybe buildings? Though it is not really an ability Water should have...
Oddball13579 said:
And secondly, I know Water Walk is not as good as Fly, but it does have some uses. Mainly to cross small bodies of water or get to an island that's in the middle of a lake. Of course 100% more situational than Fly is.
I don't want to say it is completely useless - just that it simply is worse than fly (and thus, Air Magic has a higher utility and is more potent). The very reason I am mentioning is, that Air/Earth are just too powerful and that once more it is reflected in even adventure spells. I previously mentioned that Dimension Door could potentially become Fire (as in, renamed to 'Infernal Gate'), since Air having two moving related spells seems to be unfair, too.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 06, 2019 09:41 PM |
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I like the idea of removing View Air's ability to see Heroes and moving that too the Fire school as perhaps View Life? And showing wandering stacks could be advantageous, perhaps to know where some stronger creatures are for XP gain or something like that. Perhaps at expert it also shows the complete strength of the army/stack and maybe the heroes spell as well.
And I think "Infernal Gate" is a good idea. But rather than replacing dimension door, I feel as though it should have a different effect. Perhaps it randomly teleports you to closest flagged building that you own. And only Adventure map buildings, not towns. And at expert you can choose which one to teleport to?
That only leaves Water left for at least an update for intelligence spells/adventure map spells.
____________
"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 06, 2019 10:28 PM |
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You guys are talking about View Air and View Earth, but what about Disguise?, that spell is either broken or useless, how is that acceptable...
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 06, 2019 10:31 PM |
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I like to use Disguise if it is available. Mainly just to fudge around with people.
I find it interesting that you said it was both "broken and useless" in the sentence. I guess Disguise can be ridiculously op are stupidly useless.
____________
"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 06, 2019 11:20 PM |
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Edited by nordos at 00:14, 07 May 2019.
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phoenix4ever said:
You guys are talking about View Air and View Earth, but what about Disguise?, that spell is either broken or useless, how is that acceptable...
The reason of that: Simply because it is an 'all magic school' spell, and not restricted unlike view air 
EDIT: Right you are. Disguise never struck me as powerful due to only playing vs the AI, though, so it totally slipped my mind....^^
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 06, 2019 11:31 PM |
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@Oddball VS Expert or Impossible AI Disguise does nothing, it sees right through it. VS humans it only lasts until end of round, making it much better for a Red player than a Green player for example.
So Disguise is in fact both broken and useless.
@Nordos No mate, Disguise is an Air spell, you are thinking of Visions.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 07, 2019 12:26 AM |
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What if Disguise was changed. At basic level it hides your troops numbers. At advanced it hides your army, meaning your opponent would see your army slots as all empty. And at expert it makes your hero invisible, but you cant move. It requires full movement points to cast, much like digging. If you move a little and then cast it, it is cast at advanced level. Or you can not move at all and then cast it, casting it at expert level and rendering your hero invisible.
____________
"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 07, 2019 07:49 AM |
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Hmm I don't know, turning invisible sounds pretty OP. Perhaps Disguise is best replaced by another level 2 Air spell and maybe a combat spell, since Air Magic has the least of them. Fire could use an adventure spell though, Fire also has one spell less, than the other schools.
Or Fire could be given Dimension Door, so the best adventure spells are better distributed, but then Air Magic would need another new spell.
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 07, 2019 02:52 PM |
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Edited by nordos at 14:54, 07 May 2019.
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View Air:
- Shows artifacts in explored area
- Shows all artifacts
- Shows all Artifacts and Castles
View Earth:
- Shows building (as in, Windmills, ...) in explored area
- Shows all buildings
- Shows all buildings (also reveals the tile they are placed on) and map layout
View Life (Water):
- Shows Wandering Monsters in explored areas
- Shows Wandering Monsters and Heroes in explored areas
- Shows all Wandering Monsters (also reveals the tile they stand on) and Heroes
View Recources (Fire):
- Shows resources in explored areas
- Shows resources and mines in explored areas
- Shows recourses and mines in all areas (also reveals the tile mines are placed)
Infernal Gate:
Can only be cast when you haven't moved and consumes all movement
- teleports to a random place on the worldmap
- teleports to a random area around your cursor
- teleports to the specific place (no range restriction)
Disguise:
active until the end of the week
- sets your unitcount to 0
- sets your unitcount to 0 and all units are composed of your strongest unit
- same as advanced but also increases your threat level for neutral armies (doubled?)
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 07, 2019 07:37 PM |
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nordos said:
View Life (Water):
- Shows Wandering Monsters in explored areas
- Shows Wandering Monsters and Heroes in explored areas
- Shows all Wandering Monsters (also reveals the tile they stand on) and Heroes
I like this. If you need to level fast this would point out higher level monsters for you. Just a nice little thing to have.
nordos said:
View Resources (Fire):
- Shows resources in explored areas
- Shows resources and mines in explored areas
- Shows recourses and mines in all areas (also reveals the tile mines are placed)
I also really like this. Can be quite advantageous. Could also be a great harassment tool, showing the location of an enemy's most outermost mines.
nordos said:
Infernal Gate:
Can only be cast when you haven't moved and consumes all movement
- teleports to a random place on the worldmap
- teleports to a random area around your cursor
- teleports to the specific place (no range restriction)
Now this is interesting. Now when you say teleports to a random place around your cursor, does that mean you move your FOV on the adventure map and have your cursor in the center and it will teleport you to an area around your cursor?
nordos said:
Disguise:
active until the end of the week
- sets your unitcount to 0
- sets your unitcount to 0 and all units are composed of your strongest unit
- same as advanced but also increases your threat level for neutral armies (doubled?)
So a week long duration. That would certainly be better, especially for any player that comes after Red. It seems like it could also be used to help the player intimidate wandering stacks. Like there is a pack of black dragons in front of you and you don't really want to fight them, so you cast this at expert, and suddenly the black dragons are fleeing.
Me likey! 
____________
"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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