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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 90 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 ... 75 76 77 78 79 ... 80 90 · «PREV / NEXT»
Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted May 17, 2019 11:40 PM

phoenix4ever said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
Nope the OP isn't the main factor... Frankly it's the uselessness below expert Level. And yeah according to the factors you see very soon that in case of negativ morale/luck it gets absurde over -3 amount. 1/4 already is 25% -4 equals 1/3 = 33.33%? -5 = 1/2 = 50%? and -6 = 1/1 = 1 = 100%? meaning the Enemy can't move at all?

No I guess you did'nt understand. -6 should be 25% chance to freeze, +6 should be 25% chance of an extra turn. Never above or below 25% chance.
A 25% chance at max level in your system. Hardly a big difference. If anything, instead of add more levels, just bump the percentage chances around. I feel that having 3 levels of either good or bad morale is more than enough. 6 just seems a bit excessive.
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"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2019 12:00 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 00:02, 18 May 2019.

Well that would literally change nothing then.
The problem is that there are way too many positive morale and luck modifiers.
For morale there is: Leadership, angels, all taverns in towns, Brotherhood of the Sword, Castle's grail and Mirth.
For luck there is: Luck, Fountain of Fortune, Rampart's grail, Fortune and even 2 heroes specialising in Fortune.
Besides all the above there are adventure map objects that boosts morale and/or luck, lots of artifacts that gives morale and/or luck + Pendent of Courage that gives +3 morale and +3 luck! That enough morale and luck for ya?

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted May 18, 2019 12:02 AM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 00:03, 18 May 2019.

Yeah it all seems fine to me. I don't really see the problem tbh. Nor do I get your point really.
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"Everyone is a schlong sucker." - Kayna
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2019 12:05 AM

You really don't see the problem? What is the point in having +11 morale, when you can only have +3...

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2019 12:09 AM

Which is why there are the new -Morale/-Luck artifacts and the Archdevil effect was increased.

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted May 18, 2019 12:09 AM

I love math. Keep it coming.
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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted May 18, 2019 12:10 AM

phoenix4ever said:
You really don't see the problem? What is the point in having +11 morale, when you can only have +3...
See when you explain it nice and simple without going on a rant it is easier to see your point.

Also when you cracked out the math I didn't bother to read to it.
____________
"Everyone is a schlong sucker." - Kayna
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2019 12:29 AM

gatecrasher said:
Which is why there are the new -Morale/-Luck artifacts and the Archdevil effect was increased.
Maybe but neutral units does'nt have artifacts and it's not like you are fighting Arch Devils all the time.

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Sir_Juas
Sir_Juas


Adventuring Hero
posted May 18, 2019 12:50 AM

I also believe there are too many ways to increase luck and morale, and it should be -5/+5 (5% per point), so it is harder to get to the limit. That way there would also be more differenciation between heroes who invest on them.

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nordos
nordos


Known Hero
posted May 18, 2019 11:01 AM

Sir_Juas said:
I also believe there are too many ways to increase luck and morale, and it should be -5/+5 (5% per point), so it is harder to get to the limit. That way there would also be more differenciation between heroes who invest on them.


I wouldn't make it even. The reason? Getting negative is far harder than getting positive and should be punished more. Sure, HotA has introduced some artifacts that decrease moral/luck - but seriously, you still have an artifact that gives +3/+3. The pendant only gives -2 moral. Thats a big, no, a giant difference.

So, either those things would need to be reworked to reduce it even more (including things like raiding tombs, having a mixed army, ...) - or we simply let the old values be in place and merely expand it to a higher maximum value. Getting to -5 or -6 morale should be devastating and and the same time being extremly hard to reach (something like at least one or two artifacts and master sorrow or similar).
On that note, it really depends whetever there will be new skills that reduce luck/morale. In that case, getting to -6 could be far too easy and we may need to adjust the values (on the other hand, the -morale skill would be useless vs golems, undeadand minotaurs)

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2019 12:52 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 16:20, 18 May 2019.

I still like my algorithm But it needs a cap somewhere at least for negative Moral.

as for pos moral/luck +12 would be 25% chance for double turn. Hard to reach and imho reasonable for 12 points. Formula: root(12)*7.225

negative moral of -12 would mean 43% chance for no turn... quite extensive but not really possible. (also -12 is max under every possible circumstance)

conditional:
-1 Crypt
-1 Derelict Ship
-1 Evil fog/Holy ground
-1 Shipwreck
-3 Warrior's Tomb
(7 in total under certain conditions)

unconditional/tactical:
-2 Sorrow Spell (permanent for: "Armor of the Damned")
-1 ring of supression
-1 hideous mask
-2 pendant of downfall
-1 ghost dragon
-1 living creatures in same army with undead
(8 in total under controlled conditions/tactics)

in numbers in my root algorithm of root(x)*14.45:
-4 means 28.90% chance to skip turn
-8 means 40.87% chance to skip turn
-12 means 50.06% chance to skip turn (Warrior's Tomb not calculated it's anyway very unlikely and unwise to have all effects )

if we lower the initial factor to maybe to lets say 12.45:

-4 means 24.90% chance to skip turn
-8 means 35.21% chance to skip turn
-12 means 43.21% chance to skip turn

and yet it looks very reasonable. on the other hand it'll also "buff" morale loss on early stage while old -1 Moral was 8.3% the new one is 12.45% while every further point is a lil lower.

so this tactic works best for necropolis (again), while "Spirit of Opression" is one of the best artifacts for a tactic there, also the bone/ghost dragon.

while the first factors are conditional the others are calculateable and leading to a max of -8 negative morale under "optimal" circumstances. This would mean 35.21% effect of skipping a turn from moral. Thats a quite good number since it's much easier to get positive morale compared to negative. In combination with "Spirit of Opression" that have to be checked since it's a lil more than 1/3 the time to skip a turn. Anyway... in the old calculation with a maximum of 25% it was already -25% on 3 points 1/4. It's a good tactic imho and needs a specific gear combination. It's also possible to create another Set artifact from positive/negative moral/luck items, for example to counter the effects from "Spirit of Oppression" and "Hourglass of the Evil Hour"




let's check positive morale in general:

conditional:
+1 Buoy
+1 Evil fog/Holy ground
+1 Fountain of Youth
+1 Idol of Fortune
+2 Temple (on day 7)
+1 Oasis
+1 Rally Flag
+1 Watering Hole
+1 in Siege (Tavern)
+2 Brotherhood of the Sword (only Castle in Siege)

unconditional/tactical:
+1 Badge of Courage
+1 Crest of Valor
+1 Glyph of Gallantry
+3 Pendant of Courage
+1 Still Eye of the Dragon
+2 Collossus (Grail)
+1 Angle/Archangle
+1 Minotaur (in group with Angle)
+3 from "Expert Leadership"
+2 from Mirth with expert Air Magic

In case of a lot of map objects we could add 2-3 additional points to morale for specific fights (i didn't calculate grail building for Castle in since it's very rare and also conditional). This leads to a maximum of 16 for Castle (18-19 at average max) and means:

+16 means 28.90% chance for an additional turn
+19 mean 31.49% chance for an additional turn

absolute max = 28

+28 means 38.23% chance for an additional turn on minotaur with traveling the whole map for morale buildings without anyfight.

Imho this mean balance to me compared to the linear factors from the original thats my solution. Additional I would also add a global -1 Luck to Infernos grail building but not to the owner of the grail.




Conclusion/Result:
To sum it up and to explain my algorithm once more... this leads to:
- more use for actually useless treasure artifacts
- introduce a new tactic for inferno and necropolis also for every other town
- makes treasure artifacts useful in combat again
- could lead to 4 new set artifacts (pos/neg morale/luck)
- makes early "Leadership" and "Luck" more useful compared to expert level thats roughly the same amount as it is now.
- make map objects giving moral useful at all
- an use for Castle and Rampart grail building
- even a small morale loss of 1 point is more severe than before while additional points lead to less severe loss this nerf diplomacy a lil bit when you combine good and evil oder living/undead creatures


Algortihm
for positive:
root(x)*7.225

for negative:
root(x)*12.450

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2019 01:09 PM

@ P4R4D0X0N You really like math, don't you dude?

I also find the Pendent of Courage too powerful, +3 morale and +3 luck!, compare it to Pendant of Downfall, which is also a major artifact, but it only gives -2 morale. +2 morale and +2 luck should be more than enough for Pendant of Courage.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2019 01:14 PM

phoenix4ever said:
@ P4R4D0X0N You really like math, don't you dude?

I also find the Pendent of Courage too powerful, +3 morale and +3 luck!, compare it to Pendant of Downfall, which is also a major artifact, but it only gives -2 morale. +2 morale and +2 luck should be more than enough for Pendant of Courage.


I calculated the whole algorithm in my post above while I edited it... The numbers fits in imho. I also gave examples what aspects of the game are affected by it...

And yeah I like numbers... and they sound reasonable to me.

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Sir_Juas
Sir_Juas


Adventuring Hero
posted May 18, 2019 03:14 PM

nordos said:
Sir_Juas said:
I also believe there are too many ways to increase luck and morale, and it should be -5/+5 (5% per point), so it is harder to get to the limit. That way there would also be more differenciation between heroes who invest on them.


I wouldn't make it even. The reason? Getting negative is far harder than getting positive and should be punished more. Sure, HotA has introduced some artifacts that decrease moral/luck - but seriously, you still have an artifact that gives +3/+3. The pendant only gives -2 moral. Thats a big, no, a giant difference.

So, either those things would need to be reworked to reduce it even more (including things like raiding tombs, having a mixed army, ...) - or we simply let the old values be in place and merely expand it to a higher maximum value. Getting to -5 or -6 morale should be devastating and and the same time being extremly hard to reach (something like at least one or two artifacts and master sorrow or similar).
On that note, it really depends whetever there will be new skills that reduce luck/morale. In that case, getting to -6 could be far too easy and we may need to adjust the values (on the other hand, the -morale skill would be useless vs golems, undeadand minotaurs)


I would go with -5/+5 with some balancing adjustments.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted May 20, 2019 11:03 AM

Probably much too complicated to be implemented for the small balancing benefit (if at all) it provides.
This thread has become hairsplitting.

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 21, 2019 03:08 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 15:23, 21 May 2019.

gatecrasher said:
Probably much too complicated to be implemented for the small balancing benefit (if at all) it provides.
This thread has become hairsplitting.


Well, dunno if the root function is such a problem. Even if root doesn't work you still may use x^(1/2) since its just another term for it. A simple ^ function should at least exist since its used for kinda all binary solutions. 2^x


example for max values:
2^8 = 256 (byte)
2^16 = 65536 (hexadec)

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Cip016
Cip016

Tavern Dweller
posted May 21, 2019 08:41 PM

Dear HotA crew i love your work. Big Fan ! of HotA and HoMM3.
Only one question: why did you decide to make de Bounty Hunter a lvl 6 unit in the upcomming Factory city. I mean he is a mere human competing with cyclopses and whyverns not to say champions and nagas. isn't that a bit too much for a mere human with a rifle and no armor ? i see him more like a lvl 5 than a lvl 6.
Last i want to propose some units for Factory:
lvl 1: Halfling
lvl 2: Sand Worm or Giant Spider
lvl 3: flamefrower or mechanic
lvl 4: rainbow serpent or Quetzalcoatl
lvl 5: Bounty Hunter
lvl 6: werewolf or wendigo
lvl 7: Automaton or a mechanical dragon/golem/spider

No offence and good luck on your projects !

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted May 21, 2019 08:46 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 20:47, 21 May 2019.

gatecrasher said:
Probably much too complicated to be implemented for the small balancing benefit (if at all) it provides.
This thread has become hairsplitting.
Agreed. We are all chasing the idea of a perfectly balanced game, when Homm3 was created and developed when they did not worry about balance.

Back then you adapted or you lost. Simple.

Trying to balance some things in this game are just not possible and will just needlessly complicate it to the point of unplayability. Or just cause more unbalance.  
____________
"Everyone is a schlong sucker." - Kayna
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted May 22, 2019 10:20 AM

Sometimes it's best to leave the mechanics as they are, and like Oddball said "adapt". I remember the game always being fairly balanced and I still hold my opinion after playing it currently. In what other game you can win a battle against overwhelming odds with a few but not OP units?

"Stats" are one of the reasons I dislike mods like WoG: it digs too deep into the games core...

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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 22, 2019 04:49 PM

Leave it like this would be an option, sure... but this will never make any magic heroes useful, nor specific artifacts or combination. I just introduced an option where you may benefit from these lacks and even may stack morale and/or luck to oblivion.

Anyway we better wait for the conflux heroes and magic update... maybe in summer or something, maybe never... we'll see

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