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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 81 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 20 40 60 ... 77 78 79 80 81 · «PREV / NEXT»
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 23, 2019 12:57 PM

BTB said:
It would make sense and be very convenient if the City Hall/Capitol icon right next to it followed suit and became clickable to buy town upgrades.


Can you elaborate on the convenience? Whether you click that button or the actual Town Hall building makes no real difference, right?
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BTB
BTB

Tavern Dweller
posted May 23, 2019 03:35 PM

Maurice said:
BTB said:
It would make sense and be very convenient if the City Hall/Capitol icon right next to it followed suit and became clickable to buy town upgrades.


Can you elaborate on the convenience? Whether you click that button or the actual Town Hall building makes no real difference, right?


Correct. I suggest this because it would put two buttons which comprise 99% of what you'd want to do in a town right next to each other rather than how it is now, with purchasing units in a convenient location but buying buildings still requiring you to locate the town hall (which I sometimes have a hard time finding on towns I don't play very often) and clicking on it in the main interface.

I also suggest it from an aesthetic standpoint - the castle icon being a clickable button and the town hall icon not being one bothers me much more than it should.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 23, 2019 04:45 PM

BTB said:
I also suggest it from an aesthetic standpoint - the castle icon being a clickable button and the town hall icon not being one bothers me much more than it should.


This I can absolutely agree on .
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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 25, 2019 01:29 AM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 01:34, 25 May 2019.

About the Might & Magic debate. Show me one guy winning a serious game with a "witch" it won't be possible. SOME magic heroes may be useful at the start, granted but I wouldn't call them equal to might heroes on long term with primary stats, rest is matter of maths and statistics. But I'm open to some evidence videos, in case you'll find something else than Elleshar and some very few others winning a map on XL+.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted May 26, 2019 03:08 AM
Edited by Pollo2002 at 06:08, 26 May 2019.

Magic heroes can win serious games. Im sure i could get high on the ladder using magic heroes. (Not playing Jebus cross that strongly favors might heroes)

Still Magic heroes are worse than might heroes in general for the following reasons.

A) Might heroes farm faster
If you have a Might hero With +3 Attack, you already start every battle with mass bloodlust.
Magic stats are not very usefull at the beginning, you need to use all your mana to "compete" with might heroes buffs.
So it's a lot harder to farm with magic heroes.
I think magic regeneration in the game is abysmall I if magic heroes would regenerate magic by 1 point per knowledge point and mysticism would double, triple quadruple that ,I think that alone would put magic heroes a new level.

B) Magic hero start with worse abilities.
Many of the good might heroes start with great early days abilities like offense and archery. Wisdom? that's useless.
Wisdom is made even more useless by the fact might heroes can learn highest level spells anyway by the msot common way to acquire spells in the game, Scrolls and tomes.
I think that is a huge oversight, it pisses me off might heroes can cast level 4 spells without wisdom.

C) Magic towers are prohibitively expensive, consume 1 precious build day and it requiere logistical considerations to get the spell and to get the full potential of some magic heroes, you need certain spells. More spells are usefull to might heroes than to magic heroes since less spells benefit of high level power

D) Slow and haste are the most important spells and might heroes can cast as powerfull versions than magic heroes, so what's the magic edge of magic heroes?

E) The most important skill in the game are magic school, specially earth and magic heroes have little edge in getting that, in fact might heroes are better because they can farm faster, and
Given might heroes can farm faster than magic heroes, by the time both meet might heroes will have mroe level and artifacts.
Yes, for this reason while this is generally appreciate i think Elementalists are actually viable magic heroes in genelra, startign with a school of magic (specially earth like grindan and labetha but we all know luna is op), is what magic heroes need to compete.

In the end what edge magic heroes have over might heroes? Almost none, with that said I sometimes main magic heroes because template considerations and because i play random heroes and sometimes I get an elementalist or solymr and I get the bottom of the pack of the avaiable might heroes. Also in quite open maps Solymr can be devastating, while in larger maps Grindan can farm extremly fast.

In general might heroes are considerable stronger.
If wisdom was actually needed/were usefull first week, MAgic guilds were viable, MAgic regeneration would be a lot stronger, slow/haste weren't op and Spell power would have more relevance, Magic heroes would be even with might heroes, but as it is Might heroes have all the edges.

Witht hat Said here are the magic heroes that I would happily main. In templates that are not extremly slanted towards might heroes.

A) All elementalists
B) Those that start with good spells (slow, haste, meteor shower, resurrection, chain lighting etc)
C) Intelligence speciallity
D) Alagar in small open maps
E) Dessa because logistic is op.

That may seem a lot but if i can choose i prefer over them all the best might heoes and I'm fine doing main with basically all might heroes, except for aclhemists which suck.
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Orrinisthebest
Orrinisthebest


Known Hero
posted May 26, 2019 09:23 AM

It's hard to farm with magic heroes? If anything it's the mages that clear the map with several TP's and DD. Farming is one thing, boosting main hero is another.

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H34D
H34D

Tavern Dweller
posted May 26, 2019 10:49 AM

Bug fix - classic timer dissapears after loading a multiplayer game

Hello dear HoTA friends,
on behalf of the Czech & Slovakia Heroes 3 league (www.heroes3.cz) I would like to ask HoTA creator team to fix a bug that sometimes happens to us in league and tournament games.

We often play with classic timer and sometimes when the game is interrupted and players need to load a save, the timer completely dissapears. The game contines with no time limit, which is a problem.

We are not sure why it happens. At first we thought its because sometimes we use non-standard map templates, but then it happened in few standard templates too (h3dm1).

Also we would like to ask if you can bring the setting: "Start timer after pressing OK" back.

Thank you very much. We are small community but we still highly appreciate your great work on Heroes 3.
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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 26, 2019 02:40 PM

But this bug belongs to HD-Mod features, not HotA. Wrong topic.
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culgil
culgil


Adventuring Hero
posted May 26, 2019 04:52 PM

Suggestion: Town building tree (to be reached by clickable town hall button)

BTB said:
Maurice said:
BTB said:
It would make sense and be very convenient if the City Hall/Capitol icon right next to it followed suit and became clickable to buy town upgrades.


Can you elaborate on the convenience? Whether you click that button or the actual Town Hall building makes no real difference, right?


Correct. I suggest this because it would put two buttons which comprise 99% of what you'd want to do in a town right next to each other rather than how it is now, with purchasing units in a convenient location but buying buildings still requiring you to locate the town hall (which I sometimes have a hard time finding on towns I don't play very often) and clicking on it in the main interface.

I also suggest it from an aesthetic standpoint - the castle icon being a clickable button and the town hall icon not being one bothers me much more than it should.


Dear BTB and Maurice,
I also had that idea some time ago. Optimally, the town hall/city hall/capitol button would trigger a new screen with the building tree for the town (with all the dependencies shown). I am missing such a screen in Heroes III while other strategy games have it. For example, it is not possible to see some building upgrades in the classic town hall screen if the basic building is not built yet.
So, two screens to construct buildings would exist guaranteeing backwards compatability: the classic town hall screen with the well-known structure and a building tree. Alternatively, perhaps it is possible to lead both to the same screen which then should have a possibility to switch between classic town hall screen and building tree.
If this is doable, it could of course also be used for HD mod and not only for HotA.
What do you think?

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planetavril
planetavril


Known Hero
posted May 26, 2019 07:23 PM
Edited by planetavril at 19:23, 26 May 2019.

i like the idea

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pumma
pumma


Hired Hero
posted May 27, 2019 10:29 AM
Edited by pumma at 10:30, 27 May 2019.

P4R4D0X0N said:
About the Might & Magic debate. Show me one guy winning a serious game with a "witch" it won't be possible. SOME magic heroes may be useful at the start, granted but I wouldn't call them equal to might heroes on long term with primary stats, rest is matter of maths and statistics. But I'm open to some evidence videos, in case you'll find something else than Elleshar and some very few others winning a map on XL+.



Pollo2002 already wrote most of it but I will add something.

1. There is still a system bug (intentional I suppose) which neglects the probability of learning secondary skill from Might heroes. The Might heroes have a guaranteed Wisdom at level 6, 12... and elemental skills at certain levels (rarely than Magic heroes but quite more often than if the real probabilities are in place) Hero class so they could easily learn elemental skills which they shouldn't be. If this bud is fixed you want see Might heroes cast mass slow or mass haste so often and people will also use Magic heroes.

2. Pollo2002 already said it - if the mana regeneration is percentage of the Knowledge this would make the things much better and fair for the Magic heroes.

3. There should be a Wisdom requirement for the spells cast from scrolls but that could make unplayable some of the campaigns. I don't see how a hero could cast a spell without understanding what is doing (that is Wisdom for). The best solution would be to implement a probability of failure when casting spells from scrolls without the necessary level of Wisdom but I don't know if this could be done.

4. HotA is focused on multiplayer where magic is dumped by different rules which leads to a different game resulting in making Magic heroes even weaker. Yes, multiplayer is HMM3 severely cut which makes it a different game and on top of that HotA crew began to change the game even more drastically with multiplayer in mind (not to mention that they gone over the edge with the lore - Cove pistols were on the edge but this western thing gone over the edge) and HotA began to shape as multiplayer WOG but even worse.

5. When the game starts at impossible difficulty and resources are few the Magic heroes could be quite valuable.

6. In fact there are 5 Heroes specialties that are quite valuable - Armorer, Offense, Logistics, Intelligence, Resurrection and maybe Archery for 6. Other spell specialist could be added also. So the valuable specialties are quite equal as number (Logistic is adventure skill so it is for both Might and Magic Heroes). If the system bug is fixed and the starting conditions changed Might and Magic heroes could be quite equal in power.

7. I suppose that you forgot Andra the witch. The biggest problem for the witches is the level of the Mage guild but they could conquer another town or use the Eagle Eye skill (which is not very useful but still) and that Fortress has Tazar. At current state of things few would chose Andra before Tazar.

All in all the biggest problems for the Magic Heroes are the system bug and the things pointed at 2 and 3, the multiplayer rules and lastly some not optimized skills which could be improved but not drastically changed as the Resistance skill.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 27, 2019 10:57 AM

pumma said:
1. There is still a system bug (intentional I suppose) which neglects the probability of learning secondary skill from Might heroes. The Might heroes have a guaranteed Wisdom at level 6, 12... and elemental skills at certain levels (rarely than Magic heroes but quite more often than if the real probabilities are in place)


You refer to it as a bug a few times, but intentional bugs don't exist . The system of learning Wisdom and any of the four Elemental Schools is by design. There's a whole logic in the way the game determines when to offer Wisdom and the Elemental Skills, based on Hero Class.

You can find detailed information about how the game determines this, in this post.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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pumma
pumma


Hired Hero
posted May 27, 2019 06:07 PM
Edited by pumma at 20:19, 28 May 2019.

Maurice said:
pumma said:
1. There is still a system bug (intentional I suppose) which neglects the probability of learning secondary skill from Might heroes. The Might heroes have a guaranteed Wisdom at level 6, 12... and elemental skills at certain levels (rarely than Magic heroes but quite more often than if the real probabilities are in place)


You refer to it as a bug a few times, but intentional bugs don't exist . The system of learning Wisdom and any of the four Elemental Schools is by design. There's a whole logic in the way the game determines when to offer Wisdom and the Elemental Skills, based on Hero Class.

You can find detailed information about how the game determines this, in this post.


With all my respect Maurice but you cut off the quote exactly before the link I gave which leads to a page with the exact same explanation as in your link to your own post in another thread.

And this exactly subsystem with the guaranteed Wisdom and Magic schools I mean and call system bug. This subsystem completely changes the system with the secondary skills which was designed to be a random one (that part is not much changed) with different probabilities on gaining secondary skills depending on town and on type of the hero - Might or Magic. The other word I can use for this subsystem is implementation failure. I copied below the real probabilities as they should be by design and they are much lower for Might heroes to gain a Magic school and if the subsystem is not there Might heroes rarely would have more than one Magic school.

Class        Fire Air Water Earth
Knight        1    3    4    2
Cleric        2    4    4    3
Ranger        0    1    3    3
Druid         1    2    4    4
Alchemist     1    4    2    3
Wizard        2    6    3    3
Demoniac      4    2    1    3
Heretic       5    3    2    4
Death Knight  1    2    3    4
Necromancer   2    3    3    8
Overlord      2    1    0    3
Warlock       5    2    2    5
Barbarian     2    3    0    3
Battle Mage   3    3    3    3
Beastmaster   0    1    2    3
Witch         3    3    3    3
Planeswalker  3    2    2    3
Elementalist  6    6    6    6

The subsystem drastically changes the secondary skills system giving an easier access for Might heroes to probably the best magic skills without any drawbacks for the Might heroes and not giving similar access for Magic heroes to might skills. This results into not having Might and Magic heroes but having lets call them Universal Heroes and Magic heroes. The Universal heroes has easy access to all the best secondary skills and Might heroes probabilities for gaining primary skills (not for example 25% for each of the four)and Attack and Defense are better than Spellpower and Knowledge in the current system so some of the Universal heroes become Ultimate heroes using the best of the primary and the secondary skills with almost no drawbacks. This of course brakes the system. The other way is Magic schools to have lesser effect for Might heroes but I don't see how it would be implemented.

It seems that for some reason NWC thought that Might heroes are weaker than Magic heroes and they gave them easy access to Magic schools and one more point in primary skills. Magic schools, Offense and Armorer were new skills in HMM3 and I suppose they made some calculations for the whole system with maximum range of heroes levels 20 to 25 in mind but it appears that the calculations are far from accurate. It seems that they found out this and tried to fixed it somehow with the Elementalists but not very successfully. Later they changed the whole secondary skills system in HMM4 because of this problems some of them inherited by HMM2 thus removing Wisdom and using the system from the RPG's for the elemental schools but that was nevertheless better system it didn't save HMM4. It also has flaws.

Not to forget the death threads which messed up the things resulting in rushed expansions, not fixed secondary skills system, some broken combination artifacts and on top of that Heroes Chronicles for milking further the cow. Don't get me wrong the things were already bad because of 3DO (something like EA for Bioware or Activision for Blizzard) and the death threads were significant final drop.

Later higher than 30 heroes levels and bigger armies were made available when playing and that exceed the limits of already flawed system which result to more or less broken game. The balance between Might and Magic heroes is achievable only by fixing the system bug and making Knowledge more valuable.


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10
10

Tavern Dweller
posted May 27, 2019 06:32 PM

pumma said:
I copied below the real probabilities as they should be by design and they are much lower for Might heroes to gain a Magic school and if the subsystem is not there Might heroes rarely would have more than one Magic school.

Class        Fire Air Water Earth
Knight        1    3    4    2
Cleric        2    4    4    3
Ranger        0    1    3    3
Druid         1    2    4    4
Alchemist     1    4    2    3
Wizard        2    6    3    3
Demoniac      4    2    1    3
Heretic       5    3    2    4
Death Knight  1    2    3    4
Necromancer   2    3    3    8
Overlord      2    1    0    3
Warlock       5    2    2    5
Barbarian     2    3    0    3
Battle Mage   3    3    3    3
Beastmaster   0    1    2    3
Witch         3    3    3    3
Planeswalker  3    2    2    3
Elementalist  6    6    6    6



I think it should be mentioned that this "subsystem" still honors the percentages for magic schools. As you can see from a table, Rangers/Beastmasters and Overlords/Barbarians have 0 probability in fire/water magic, so when the game will offer them mandatory magic school, it will only choose out of three remaining ones. This puts these classes at the advantage, as earth and air school considered to be vastly better than water and fire.

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pumma
pumma


Hired Hero
posted May 27, 2019 07:42 PM
Edited by pumma at 20:20, 28 May 2019.

10 said:
pumma said:
I copied below the real probabilities as they should be by design and they are much lower for Might heroes to gain a Magic school and if the subsystem is not there Might heroes rarely would have more than one Magic school.

Class        Fire Air Water Earth
Knight        1    3    4    2
Cleric        2    4    4    3
Ranger        0    1    3    3
Druid         1    2    4    4
Alchemist     1    4    2    3
Wizard        2    6    3    3
Demoniac      4    2    1    3
Heretic       5    3    2    4
Death Knight  1    2    3    4
Necromancer   2    3    3    8
Overlord      2    1    0    3
Warlock       5    2    2    5
Barbarian     2    3    0    3
Battle Mage   3    3    3    3
Beastmaster   0    1    2    3
Witch         3    3    3    3
Planeswalker  3    2    2    3
Elementalist  6    6    6    6



I think it should be mentioned that this "subsystem" still honors the percentages for magic schools. As you can see from a table, Rangers/Beastmasters and Overlords/Barbarians have 0 probability in fire/water magic, so when the game will offer them mandatory magic school, it will only choose out of three remaining ones. This puts these classes at the advantage, as earth and air school considered to be vastly better than water and fire.


I know this and that's why I call it subsystem and not system. It drastically changes the probabilities nothing more but that is quite enough to broke some things. One thing is 4 from 112 and completely other thing is 4 from 10 or 3 from 112 and 3 from 6. We talk about 10 to 15 or even more times difference. That is gamebreaker.

Of course if that would be fixed I could only imagine the outrage unleashed by the multiplayer community. It could be something similar to the Forge reactions or even worse.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 27, 2019 11:23 PM
Edited by Maurice at 23:24, 27 May 2019.

A design element can never be a bug. I fail to see why you keep calling it as such, when the developers clearly designed it this way and went to enough length to write a subroutine for it.

That you feel it is game-breaking is something different, but it's not a bug.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 28, 2019 12:03 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 03:48, 28 May 2019.

It's clearly not a bug, but a design choice and one of the better ones.
Without this subsystem might heroes and probably also (some) magic heroes would have a hard time learning Wisdom and magic schools. And let's be honest a hero without Wisdom and Earth Magic (perhaps also Air Magic) is not very good.
I agree the Tomes and Spellbinder's Hat should have required Wisdom too. What makes them OP, is that a level 1 Crag Hack can cast Dimension Door without any Wisdom. Meanwhile skills like Eagle Eye and Scholar require Wisdom...

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted May 28, 2019 05:37 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 17:50, 28 May 2019.

Problem is some might classes are even easier to develop magic wise then other magic classes. Barbarians and beastmasters only have three magic schools available and easy Earth while Wizards have Fire with a greater probability.
So, yeah! It was a design choice but I find hard to say if a good one.
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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted May 28, 2019 05:45 PM

bloodsucker said:
Problem is some might classes are even easier to develop magic wise then other magic classes. Barbarians and beastmasters only have three magic schools available and easy Earth while Wizards have Fire with a greater probability.
And Conflux Magic heroes can get all 4 schools of magic from the Magic University.
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"Oddball is Fred in disguise" - NoobX
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted May 28, 2019 06:05 PM

bloodsucker said:
Problem is some might classes are even easier to develop magic wise then other magic classes. Barbarians and beastmasters only have three magic schools available and easy Earth while Wizards have Fire with a greater probability.
So, yeah! It was a design choice but I find hard to say if a good one.


Indeed! We should rename the wizard class to somehting more fitting its current deplorable implementation. I propose retired spellcaster.
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All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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