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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 22, 2019 05:43 PM |
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Everyone keeps saying that Magic heroes need a buff. That magic needs to be reworked. That magic and magic heroes are severely lacking. And yet I have yet to find that. Most of the time when I play magic heroes I find them to be OP if you build them right.
I'm all for a magic rework and some of the skills being reworked. But if someone could enlighten me as to why everyone seems to think magic heroes are underwhelming that would be nice. I am just not sure what everyone means.
blob2 said:
"Stats" are one of the reasons I dislike mods like WoG: it digs too deep into the games core...
Both that and the tier 8 units and the unit skills are what made me turn away from WoG. It is just too complicated.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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Sir_Juas
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2019 05:52 PM |
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I believe Magic heroes are both weak and OP depending on the situation.
For example, damage spells do need a buff/rework because they're mostly weak. But on the other hand you have lvl 4 spell Town Portal or you have Dimension Door, both of wich cost little mana, and at expert make magic heroes too OP.
Thats just an example, I am not that sure Magic Heroes need a buff, but yeah they seem quite extremist, they're super good or they're trash.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 22, 2019 06:44 PM |
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It has to do with the better attack and defense stats of might heroes, especially classes like barbarians and beastmasters which gain a lot of attack or defense. If you have huge armies, might heroes will hit much harder and receive much less damage than magic heroes. Of course all this can change with artifacts, hero levels and visits to stat boosting map locations and towns.
In the beginning of a map magic heroes can be good, due to simple spells such as Magic Arrow. Having more mana can also be great as a magic hero and things like Intelligence, Intelligence specialists, Mana Vortices and Magic Springs makes them even better.
Some "magic skills" are quite weak as you know: Eagle Eye, Mysticism and Sorcery, if these skills were better, magic heroes would also become better. Some of the damaging Fire Magic spells and Frost Ring could also use a buff.
Of course there are two artifacts that kinda ruins magic heroes, at least in combat, Orb of Inhibition and Recanter's Cloak.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2019 06:49 PM |
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Well no wonder HotA crew doesnt take the suggestions here seriously. Most people are clueless how the game really works now.
Magic heroes are super strong now and balance with might is very good. Good magic heroes are much more valuable than might on most templates, even in late game with huge armies. They tend to have better control over the map.
Intelligence heroes like Elleshar are totally very strong now and can easily wreck Crag Hack with equal army.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 22, 2019 06:52 PM |
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Hmm first time I am hearing that, people always say might heroes are stronger. But yeah Intelligence specialists also seems very powerful to me.
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Sir_Juas
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2019 08:20 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
Well no wonder HotA crew doesnt take the suggestions here seriously. Most people are clueless how the game really works now.
Magic heroes are super strong now and balance with might is very good. Good magic heroes are much more valuable than might on most templates, even in late game with huge armies. They tend to have better control over the map.
Intelligence heroes like Elleshar are totally very strong now and can easily wreck Crag Hack with equal army.
Thats my point, Magic Heroes with their adventure spells have great control over the map. But damage spells are weak against big armies (maybe except for implosion, but it has room left for a little buff if needed), so Might Heroes with their secondary skills and just one school of magic can dominate the combat part of the game.
So Might and Magic are different, but ballanced in a good way 
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 22, 2019 09:05 PM |
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Forgot to mention that might heroes also usually end up with better skills. Some magic heroes have very low chance of learning Offense and Armorer...
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Sir_Juas
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2019 09:56 PM |
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Edited by Sir_Juas at 21:56, 22 May 2019.
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phoenix4ever said:
Forgot to mention that might heroes also usually end up with better skills. Some magic heroes have very low chance of learning Offense and Armorer...
Speaking of Armorer... shouldn't it be 10% 20% 30% the same as Offensive? the way it is Offensive has double effect (i changed it in mi mod so they are both 10/20/30).
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2019 10:29 PM |
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Sir_Juas said:
I believe Magic heroes are both weak and OP depending on the situation.
For example, damage spells do need a buff/rework because they're mostly weak. But on the other hand you have lvl 4 spell Town Portal or you have Dimension Door, both of wich cost little mana, and at expert make magic heroes too OP.
Thats just an example, I am not that sure Magic Heroes need a buff, but yeah they seem quite extremist, they're super good or they're trash.
What's the thing about Town Portal or Dimension Door and Magic Heroes?
So Craig Hack can't learn it or what do you mean to say?
How is it stronger when cast by a Magic Hero?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 22, 2019 11:18 PM |
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It's not, but magic heroes usually have more mana, so they can cast them more. (But if you have Town Portal and/or Wizard's Well, you usually have enough mana anyway.)
Sir_Juas I see you wanted to be sure that Tazar is without a doubt the very best hero in the game. 
Offense only affects melee attacks, while Armorer affects both melee and ranged attacks, so they were already pretty balanced.
Armorer was not one the skills that needed buffs, it is already essential.
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Sir_Juas
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2019 11:40 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
It's not, but magic heroes usually have more mana, so they can cast them more. (But if you have Town Portal and/or Wizard's Well, you usually have enough mana anyway.)
Sir_Juas I see you wanted to be sure that Tazar is without a doubt the very best hero in the game.
Offense only affects melee attacks, while Armorer affects both melee and ranged attacks, so they were already pretty balanced.
Armorer was not one the skills that needed buffs, it is already essential.
Haha yeah probably.
Allright i didn't thought about melee & ranged defense both in one skill. so i guess it is kind of balanced. I still think it needs a little boost to be equally balanced to Offensive, so maybe i'll make it 10/15/20... i still don't know what would be the ideal
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 22, 2019 11:50 PM |
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Another thing is that Offense only increases base damage, while Armorer decreases full damage.
You can see more here: http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Offense
I strongly believe you should'nt change Offense or Armorer, but of course you can do what you want.
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Sir_Juas
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2019 11:55 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Another thing is that Offense only increases base damage, while Armorer decreases full damage.
You can see more here: http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Offense
I strongly believe you should'nt change Offense or Armorer, but of course you can do what you want.
Allright Phoenix, that i did not know either... so IT IS actually balanced. I have to reverse it back to 5/10/15 then
Thank you for that
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 22, 2019 11:59 PM |
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No problem. 
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Sir_Juas
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 23, 2019 12:00 AM |
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gatecrasher said:
What's the thing about Town Portal or Dimension Door and Magic Heroes?
So Craig Hack can't learn it or what do you mean to say?
How is it stronger when cast by a Magic Hero?
Yes he can that's true, but by probability having expert wisdom + magic school + the spell + plenty of mana is much more harder for a Might hero than it is for a Magic hero.
The fact that a Might hero can also do that (even if it takes much more effort or sideways) speaks wonders about the mixture and richnes of the game
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted May 23, 2019 01:25 AM |
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Thanks everyone for explaining the drop off that Magic heroes seem to experience in late game
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted May 23, 2019 09:25 AM |
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Sir_Juas said:
gatecrasher said:
What's the thing about Town Portal or Dimension Door and Magic Heroes?
So Craig Hack can't learn it or what do you mean to say?
How is it stronger when cast by a Magic Hero?
Yes he can that's true, but by probability having expert wisdom + magic school + the spell + plenty of mana is much more harder for a Might hero than it is for a Magic hero.
The fact that a Might hero can also do that (even if it takes much more effort or sideways) speaks wonders about the mixture and richnes of the game
No, it's really not if you are a halfway decent player. And it doesn't speak for the richness of the game but for the poorness of magic heroes. You only need Advanced Wisdom by the way. Earth Magic is not unlikely for barbarians, beastmasters and captains.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 23, 2019 09:35 AM |
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It is very rare you end up without Earth Magic. It happens sometimes to Knights, but even Knights will usually get it sooner or later.
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BTB
Famous Hero
Moist & Creamy
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posted May 23, 2019 10:21 AM |
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I haven't played HotA, but I'll assume that it probably includes the interface upgrade from the HD+ mod wherein the Castle icon in the city view is clickable and becomes a shortcut to "buy all" creatures.
It would make sense and be very convenient if the City Hall/Capitol icon right next to it followed suit and became clickable to buy town upgrades.
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nordos
Known Hero
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posted May 23, 2019 12:11 PM |
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Regarding Magic Heroes:
The main problem is, that Magic Power is only halfway useful, and knowledge is only partly necessary.
See, most of the times, thanks to manawells and towns, you need around 10 knowledge to actively participate via Dimension Portal, etc. More is nice and really helps if you are in danger of being ambushed, but it is no hard requirement. And 10 knowledge is possible for all types of heroes, no matter which - simply equipping a specific Artifact allows you to reach that number.
Now, Spellpower has a similar, albeit slightly different problem: Most 'good' spells have no or next to no Magic Power requirement. Dimension Portal, Town Portal or Fly don't care about Power at all, For Haste/Slow/Bless/Prayer/... you only need a low number so it doesn't fall off after the first round. Most of the times? Casting Mass Haste with 5 Power is enough for a lot of fights, and even the most tenious battles tend to last less than 10 rounds.
These mass spells can be learned by any and all Might Heroes. The low Power requirement helps them, too - and if the enemy Magic Hero wants to counter? Well, either he better had something else to cast, or they would keep exhcanging slow/haste until the Might Hero crushed the Magic Hero via higher base stats.
There are only a very few spells that are dependant on Power, that are actually useful - most of the damage spells are simply useless beyond a certain level (even something high tier like Inferno). So, most of the times you mainly need Power for:
- Resurrection
- Implosion / Chain Lightning / Armageddon
- Summon x/y/z
Well, that sounds quite bad, no? If you as a Magic Hero does not get any of these spells, your hero is basically inferior to a Might Hero. And guess what - some factions start with Towns that are unable to aquire some (or even all, see Fortress) spells...
TL;DR: Most of the things Magic Heroes can do, the Might Heroes can do just about as good. On the other hand, Magic Heroes tend to get crappier skills (hello Eagle Eye, Mysticism, ...)
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