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Heroes Community > Other Games Exist Too > Thread: "Songs of conquest" Heroes-like game?
Thread: "Songs of conquest" Heroes-like game? This thread is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 26, 2022 05:13 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 17:15, 26 Jun 2022.

Artu, that's plain nonsense. HoMM is a spin-off of M&M which includes sci-fi elements. In HoMM 1 - you may have missed that - people go through a gate and arrive in that strange land (of HoMM).
HoMM 1/2 is presented as fantasy, but fantasy is the broadest term that exists. HoMM 2 contains undead - vampires, mummies, zombies, liches. Medieval? Nah. Mythological? Nah. The undead stuff is pretty new "fantasy". Then, the Tower. IRON GOLEMS? TITANS? That's robots (and they ARE, in H5 Gremlins can repair them).

Now, HoMM is a spin-off. Is there any rule that fotbids introducing new stuff out of the main show? Since when is a spin-off more limnited than the parent show?

Think Game of Thrones. If there is a spin-off without any dragons or magic in it the first two seasons, does that mean the third has to deal without them?

The whole problem only exists because they devs LEAKED stuff in the process of making the add-on - something unheard-of at the time. They did that because there was quite some fab base and lots of discussion in the 3do forum, devs being quite open. They thought it would be great. Had they kept quite, they would have made the add-on, period.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 26, 2022 06:09 PM
Edited by artu at 18:11, 26 Jun 2022.

Golems are ancient Hebrew folk lore as far as I know, the originals most probably werent iron of course but you miss the point. Yes, it is quite a mix up and not specific to an era. (Although, H3 vampires looked quite ancient, not Count Dracula type and I’d consider the undead in general mythological creaures too.) But in terms of style and ambiance, it’s still not as far fetched as hi-tech aliens with lasers and snow. Even the steam-punkish elements blend in. You can say that’s a conservative taste, like how some people dont like synth in jazz but are okay with electric guitar. But the point was, Forge was a marginal town in an already established atmosphere of an existing game. It wasnt your typical add on. So you cant compare reacting to it with comparing two different games.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 26, 2022 07:23 PM

No, it's you who misses the point. Completely. When Dylan went electric, it was his right as an artist to do so. Period. There is no rationalizing of why he was WRONG to do so.
Same thing with the Forge. There just IS no rationalizing, simply because the developers don't gave to adhere to any "rules" that are nonsensical anyway. Just because an artist doesn't do something for a time doesn't mean he can't do it in the future. For some it may be okay and fit, others may not like it, but there is no arguing that it is somehow wrong.
That's what you don't get. Expectation is utterly subjective. If a punk band suddenly makes an album with folk songs, their fan base may not like that and they may sell less records, but that's it. Makes no sense to argue with them and try to convince them that what they do is somehow wrong and traitorous.

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Groovy
Groovy


Hired Hero
posted June 26, 2022 08:06 PM
Edited by Groovy at 20:14, 26 Jun 2022.

JollyJoker said:
Think Game of Thrones. If there is a spin-off without any dragons or magic in it the first two seasons, does that mean the third has to deal without them?

I think it depends on what portion of the audience is familiar with the world of Game of Thrones rather than just the spinoff.

When I first saw the Forge artwork, I just couldn't grasp what the devs were thinking. It felt like they were making a parody of their own game. Having never played M&M games, seeing sci-fi elements in the HoMM world was really jarring.

I imagine that other HoMM players who had not played M&M games felt the same way.

EDIT: I'm not saying that the devs had no right to add the Forge, or that it would have been morally wrong to do so. I didn't realise that anyone was arguing that.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 26, 2022 08:42 PM

JollyJoker said:
No, it's you who misses the point. Completely. When Dylan went electric, it was his right as an artist to do so. Period. There is no rationalizing of why he was WRONG to do so.
Same thing with the Forge. There just IS no rationalizing, simply because the developers don't gave to adhere to any "rules" that are nonsensical anyway. Just because an artist doesn't do something for a time doesn't mean he can't do it in the future. For some it may be okay and fit, others may not like it, but there is no arguing that it is somehow wrong.
That's what you don't get. Expectation is utterly subjective. If a punk band suddenly makes an album with folk songs, their fan base may not like that and they may sell less records, but that's it. Makes no sense to argue with them and try to convince them that what they do is somehow wrong and traitorous.

Another off the mark comment. Maybe, I should go step by step:

1- Nobody claims they dont have the right to come up with Forge. Rights have nothing to do with it, so I dont see why you keep bringing it up. Did somebody sue 3DO for coming up with Forge? Do I claim artists can not or should not take new directions?

2- When Dylan went electric a lot of his traditional folk fans did react very badly. But since he was a frigging genius, he pulled it off and revolutionized folk and rock music as we know it. It might have gone differently, a lot of artists take the same risk and fail miserably. “Oh, X lost the touch, this is not why we used to buy an X album, Wtf, X has turned disco?” etc. etc.

3- However, that’s also beside the point. When Dylan went electric, it’s understandable that his baseground listeners who knew and liked him for playing protest folk in the first place got disappointed. Whether Dylan’s new sound is good or bad isnt even the point here. There is someone who says Nick Drake isnt any good because he doesnt sound enough like Dylan. You say, “you didn’t even listen to Drake, why should he sound like Dylan in the first place, he has his own thing.” Up to this point, we’re okay. But then you say, “you’re just like those Dylan fans who booed him when he went electric.” And I’m telling you that’s not the same thing, it’s a flawed comparison.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 26, 2022 08:43 PM

Yes, many people who didn't know M&M games, probably didn't care about them one way or another (like myself) were probably, let's call it surprised about what the devs leaked, which wasn't much more than sketches.
I think that the "normal" reaction might be, "strange, well let's see what they have in mind - they seemed to know what they were doing until now, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. There were those who welcomed the addition of the sci-fi M&M element, probably a minority, and there was this vocal minority that sent death threats and tried everything possible to prevent THEIR vision of the game being compromised by heresy. Fanatics.
Same thing as here. I mean, there will never be a new HoMM 3 because either it will be too far away from it or not good enough, H3 having all these mods and history and stuff.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 26, 2022 08:57 PM

artu said:
Whether Dylan’s new sound is good or bad isnt even the point here. There is someone who says Nick Drake isnt any good because he doesnt sound enough like Dylan. You say, “you didn’t even listen to Drake, why should he sound like Dylan in the first place, he has his own thing.” Up to this point, we’re okay. But then you say, “you’re just like those Dylan fans who booed him when he went electric.” And I’m telling you that’s not the same thing, it’s a flawed comparison.
You don't seem to get that this are two different things, that'w why I commented that I don't lnow which part of the statement was more absurd.
For one thing, there is judging without first-hand experience and defending it, that's absurd. But it's also the mark of someone with an agenda - or would you spent time with bad-mouthing a game you didn't even play or a record you didn't even hear?
The second part was that fanatics aren't against something fut FOR something - but, as you yourself said so, because they are so FOR something every alternative or even contrary must be fought.

So there is a reason why someone would say Nick Frake isn't good, without listening to him, and that's the same reason why Dylan fans booed him when he went electric, before even listening to him - which is what happened with the forge because there were those sending death threats and pressured 3do to drop things. Because they wanted the artists to follow what THEIR vision of the game was and nit follow the artists visions of the game trusting them to deliver.

That's something completely different than reacting sceptical and even doubtful on leaked info.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 26, 2022 09:09 PM

Ok. But here’s the thing. You can say that booing Dylan on stage for going electric is an overreaction, a fanatical overreaction even. That’s still different than booing Drake for not being Dylan.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 26, 2022 09:43 PM

Same thing. Booing Dylan for going electric is, subjectively, booing Dylam for not being Dylan.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 26, 2022 10:17 PM
Edited by artu at 07:10, 27 Jun 2022.

Well, if we stop using it as an analogy about Forge, you must keep in mind that when he did that, rock ( n roll) music was yet considered commercial teenage dance music, pure bubble gum. So when a political, protest singer went rock for the first time, it was to some, selling out the cause. And not because of artistic vision but selling out to make an easy buck.

But that’s beside the point. It’s ok to expect “the usual” style or at least something relatively similar from an artist and get disappointed and vocalize that disappointment when not finding it. In case of Dylan, things worked out but as I said already, many just blew it. (Forge would blow it, if you ask me.) Needless to say, I’m not talking about sending dead threats and all that lunacy. It’s weird to expect from another artist (or game) to replicate the other one though.

Gotta go now. Nighty night.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 26, 2022 10:55 PM

Yeah, night.

Just as a last explanation - the problem isn't liking or disliking something, that's normal. The problem is, going on a crusade. A more accurate analogy would be,. if Dylan had leaked he'd go electric next concert, and then some people had made a fuzz, writing to the record company, threatening to kill Dylan - trying to prevent the artist to follow his own vision, but to force him to follow their own vision (they thought was his as well).

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 27, 2022 09:13 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 09:26, 27 Jun 2022.

Quote:
Did somebody sue 3DO for coming up with Forge? Do I claim artists can not or should not take new directions?


Suppossedly they were threatened with death (probably not seriously, but still)

Anyways, the problem with SoC is not "artistic vision", the problem is that they promised a fully featured Singleplayer focused experience and it's a very limited in scope multiplayer game instead. I'd say by their own admission H3 has much more of a variety of effects (bless and curses, summons, map spells, spells which only target specific creature types, abilities unique to almost every single creature, towns which have significant differences in play style and special features, a greater variety of map object effects, more special buildings, more varied skills, artifacts with many more effects, primary skills on heroes, and so forth).

Of course, people didn't really have the right to yet again expect an "updated extended and modernized H3" (as the green drag seems to thinkwas the expectation). But they did have the right to expect a more varied and singleplayer focused game instead of a "minimalistic" online multiplayer focused H6-like experience since the first was the unfulfilled promise, the second was not.

Also JJ is completely wrong about his analogies. For one, I prefer H4 to H3, so I would never "boo something for not being H3". I would, however, boo something for not even trying to be what they said it would be. The devs are straight up dishonest about their "singleplayer" claim. On this green drag is obviously right.

Even JJ ahem, "fanatical crusade" on defending the game relies on the (only thus far suppossed and imagined) multiplayer "balancing" effects of flattening the gameplay.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 27, 2022 09:31 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 16:03, 27 Jun 2022.

See, that's what I call a fanatic with an agenda.

The game is at version 0.75.7, you didn't buy or play it and you already judge it as crap, like it was version 3.2 and a complete failure.

Why would you do something like that? My only explanation is, you had high personal expectations, a vision of what it might be, what you heard from some others told you that it doesn't align with your expectation and now you diss the game out of sheer disappointment.

You didn't invest into it, so why not just waiting for the finished product - or for the roadmap, at least, for heaven's sake. Community has already made 172 maps with a still unrefined editor, which is a lot after a month of EA. If you ask me, that is.

And my "fanatical defense" of the game isn't that at all. I just can't stand it when things are condemned lock, stock and barrel, when they are unfinished, and then from someone without first-hand experience at that.

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted June 27, 2022 04:00 PM

NimoStar said:
The devs are straight up dishonest about their "singleplayer" claim. On this green drag is obviously right.



They're a smaller Indie dev team though, so being dishonest is chill. They just wanted those single player bucks, which they got out of me. I even gifted it to my brother like an idiot lol. They said all the right things, some of which I wanted to pull from their original FAQ from their discord which of course got taken down only for a re-written version post EA-release. Wanted to highlight their many points on it being a single player game. They also made a point to say the game will not have sim turns, only hot-seat. Which was a huge plus for me because I took that as a serious claim of being single-player driven. They make a point to say the game would have some online capabilities, but the main focus was the single player experience.

Then a week or so into Ea: Sim turns are being worked on even though we said no to them! They also wanted this to play like a deck builder! (Like all the other single player deck builder games out there lmfao) Nothing but straight up small 1v1 maps from the devs. And soon players can take control of the neutral stacks. They've been actively working on all things multiplayer.

Whether it is a Corportation or small indie team, i don't appreciate being mislead or lied to. They were careful with what they said about their product like any other company. They only revealed videos highlighting the Heroes adventure map being used with hexagon battlefields almost all the way up to the EA release. They hyped up SP and wrote off MP all during development, they knew what they were doing.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 27, 2022 05:30 PM

The_Green_Drag said:

Then a week or so into Ea: Sim turns are being worked on even though we said no to them!
Who is we? Because the upvoters certainly said yes to them! And seriously - 3 weeks to incorporate a first sim-turn iteration? That's not much. Game is at version 0.76.1 with the beta patch, by the way.

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted June 27, 2022 05:57 PM
Edited by The_Green_Drag at 17:59, 27 Jun 2022.

"we" being the devs, or whoever wrote their faq from before EA. I'm not saying they can't do Sim turns ever just because they said it in their prerelease faq, but to go from a flat "no, we got hotseat" to it being implemented immediately upon release is eyebrow raising at least. It was on their faq so it is not like they weren't aware it was a desired a request. Of course it was a highly upvoted feature. I just find it awfully convenient. Sim turns must have been on the table in some regard and them choosing to make an effort to bring it up in the first place, while answering no to it, only to reverse the decision right out of the gates is misleading or dishonest at best. They should have just left it "tbd" or "depending on sales", anything to leave it open ended since they clearly wanted it.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 27, 2022 07:31 PM

Couldn't it be the fact that the game sold much better than expected? They are hiring. And, I mean, I don't play online either, buthaving a dedicated online player base will help balancing the game massively.
This in turn is imnportant for singleplayer as well (we have seen that especially with AoW3). If online play points to "balanced", but the AI loses out constantly with a side then that means that the AI has to be changed (which seems to be next on the agenda, by the way).

As we also know, looking at HoMM 3, the online community has been keeping the game alive, isn't that so?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 27, 2022 08:42 PM

I really haven't been following closely but, couldn't it be that, they initially thought the game as SP focused and then, players massively requested more focus for MP ? It would just mean they listen to majority of their playerbase, how is that a bad thing ?
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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted June 27, 2022 11:22 PM
Edited by The_Green_Drag at 23:24, 27 Jun 2022.

There are many requests on there also with 1k+ votes, and a lot are close to 1k, which have not been considered or are being denied. One of which I mentioned a few pages ago focusing on more faction diversity.

The way I see it, NWC homm games were built from the ground up as single player games. It was not designed to be competitive. There are underdog factions to play as and there are tons of things to throw off the balance of any given game. It didn't just rely on changing the difficulty or map to shake things up. In SoC, everything has to be balanced to a t.

There is obviously more money to be made and traction to gain from being a flashy e-sport or competitive multiplayer game; them choosing to say "no sim turns, only hot-seat" was great not because I hate simultaneous turns, but because a game not focusing on multiplayer and balance (that also resembled homm) was something that excited me. I took that bit of info (along with their other mentions of SP focused game) as an acknowledgement of the online crowd that exists today and choosing not to be another streamlined attempt, which I absolutely see it as at its core.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 28, 2022 12:01 AM
Edited by Galaad at 00:03, 28 Jun 2022.

The_Green_Drag said:
There are many requests on there also with 1k+ votes, and a lot are close to 1k, which have not been considered or are being denied. One of which I mentioned a few pages ago focusing on more faction diversity.


They are considering most 1k+ suggestions. The one you really want is neither considered nor denied, but they can’t consider or approve everything either.
Plus the one you demand is not that easy to implement, let alone to playtest. They have some foundation right now, it might evolve later. They can’t just redesign all the factions gameplay from scratch, that’s unrealistic. Your hope could be when they introduce new factions.

Quote:
NWC homm games were built from the ground up as single player games. It was not designed to be competitive.


NWC games were not designed to be competitive but you could hotseat with family and friends. You really have a hard time to get this game is not made by NWC nor wants to be a "new homm", the interview you linked earlier makes it quite clear.

Quote:
There is obviously more money to be made


You cannot reproach developers to want that their game sells. You cannot compare it to Ubi, Ubi has not made homm, they just milked it and didn’t give a **** about the license, that’s a completely different scenario.
Plus come on, in 2022, if you want to cash-grab you are not going to make a game with a gameplay from the 90’s. These guys seem to work with passion.

Quote:
I hate simultaneous turns


I like hotseat too but how can anyone hate sim turns ? It just saves time.
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