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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 05, 2022 10:11 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:12, 05 Jun 2022.
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Quote: SoC isn't deterministic.
Why would I discuss a game with someone who hasn't played it?
It was your argument that the lessening of enviromental variables led to a better game. Plus I did mention the types of variables H3 would have and SoC not (random hero recruiting, random skill offering, random primary skill levelling, random creature weeks and months, random spell in mage guilds, random artifact merchant/black market, amongst several others, not to mention Random Map Generator itself!)
SoC lacks all of these features, isn't that correct?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 05, 2022 11:28 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 06, 2022 02:18 PM |
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For the little I've played insofar I can say I understood like 80% of core mechanics instantly just because I played Heroes, so that should say something.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 09, 2022 02:56 PM |
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I really want to love this game, but it feels like a demo rn, I'm sorry
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2022 03:24 PM |
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Yes, it misses a couple of things. Which seems pretty normal, considering it's at version 0.75.7.
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted June 09, 2022 10:16 PM |
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Can you still not switch the mouse buttons around so that you move with the left click like normal games? I guess that's quite a petty reason to not play the game but it just feels so wrong and the fact that there was no option to change it last time I played is the weirdest thing ever. Like some designer really wanted to make a change just for the sake of being "different" and is refusing to let people customize it .
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2022 11:04 PM |
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Lots of games work that way, say, Age of Wonders, Fantasy General II ...
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted June 11, 2022 11:08 PM |
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very cool, doesn't change the fact that in Unity it is at most 10 minutes of work to let people change those keybinds just like any other
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2022 06:02 PM |
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Here is an interview from the lead dev in game design.
I definitely enjoy the game but it is frustrating to see how weird they are around the heroes title and I feel like it does hold this game back to some degree.
This part in particular: "Anyway, we talked about how people would look at this game compared to Heroes 3. But we thought, "Is that a problem?" It shouldn't be. As much as we like it and want to improve upon the things we enjoy, we're making our own game in the genre; not an upgraded version of Heroes 3. If you want that, just play Heroes 3, it's great."
Idk, I read this like.... If you want something epic with endless amounts of fun, just play Heroes 3 instead. We're making our own game!
As much as they talk about other adventure strategy games and 4x games, SoC is clearly a Heroes game. You can't say this is more like Age of wonders or civilization or even kings bounty. They have similarities and features maybe, but overall this is 100% a heroes game. I hate the way they cherry pick what they want to directly copy over, while at the same time they'll dismiss any suggestion that is attached to something heroes does. It feels like they hit their limit on "heroes features" and the question of whether or not an added feature will improve the game is an after thought.
Anytime something from any of the seven Heroes games was brought up in the alpha server, it would be thrown under a heroes 3 umbrella and more or less be dismissed because SoC is not Heroes. I just hate this teetering back and forth of being so inspired by heroes that many parts of the game are carbon copies (which is fine) but then leaving out important basic features like flying units, major faction differences, or basic hero stats.
They're working on campaigns and PVP, both aspects of the game I could care less about. But working on these things also makes it seem like they're mostly satisfied with the game's current state. My fun is running out, and I'm just sad about it I have about 350 hours of actual play time. Its not a bad game by any means, but I feel less and less confident that its going to become the epic single player adventure game I was hoping it would be :/
*rant over
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2022 06:14 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 13, 2022 09:13 PM |
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But they are right. If you want to play HoMM 3, play HoMM 3.
Yes, the game feels like a HoMM game, but thankfully it's NOT HoMM 3 or any other game of the series.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 13, 2022 10:28 PM |
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gnollking said: very cool, doesn't change the fact that in Unity it is at most 10 minutes of work to let people change those keybinds just like any other
I forgive it but I agree with your sentiment.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 13, 2022 10:39 PM |
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2022 11:04 PM |
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Not to be nitpicky of a response he might said on the fly, but he says "[SoC is] not an upgraded version of Heroes 3. If you want that, just play Heroes 3, it's great."
H3 isn't an upgraded version of H3...I assume he means, "if you wanted an upgraded Heroes 3, then look else where".
It is just disappointing. With changes like the different town construction and removing the wait & defend options I can totally get behind. New magic system isn't great to me, but the essence mixing is cool and unique, so I dig it. Stack limits was new but it turned out to be pretty cool. No healing spells or resurrection to remove stalling? Sure thing. When someone asks why for one of those changes there are clear reasons to point to.
But what I cannot understand is the removal of so much which adds nothing to the game's design. There are no RNG unit abilities in the game. There are no RNG stats like moral or luck or random stat gain on level up. Progression is lacking, it doesn't feel nearly as good to get a high-level wielder or get your top tier troop recruited. No troop mixing between factions. I'm the kind of player that likes to react to maps and do the best with what I'm given, and playing that way here is what causes me to lose interest. It's their bland balance choices and focus on PVP that has me the most disappointed. They haven't even made an official map that isn't a small 1v1 map since before I joined the alpha in February...this was always advertised as a return to the classic adventure strategy games, which somehow includes a balanced pvp experience while removing most of what would make the player stop and think before their next move.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 13, 2022 11:25 PM |
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Quote: H3 isn't an upgraded version of H3
But ERA/WoG, HotA and VCMI are, with more on the way
WoG would be truly great if the graphics weren't made with the ass... I mean, most times they are really low effort. Nightmare was good for reference, dracolich was also OK, but MOST of them like Emissaries and several Commanders really suck. Not to mention really lazy recolors "supreme archangel", "darkness dragon", "blood dragon", "ghost behemoth"... Since then we have better graphics, somebody must do a WoG overhaul and merge that with main ERA replacing the bad graphics of old (including map objects), and then, we will have a true upgraded version of H3 not ruined by bad aesthetics.
*Disclaimer: I do recolors in my H4 Ultimate mod, but they are done with modern techniques in full RGB color space, not 15 years ago palette swap; and I don't pass them off as new ultimate higher level creatures along the old ones; I also change anims and the like and as a 1-man team doing the mod in just a few months, not a full fldged team which has had decades...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 13, 2022 11:30 PM |
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@GreenDrag
Well to be honest I see nowhere in their advertising that their game is supposed to be an upgraded h3 or even a spiritual successor. Seems that it's us homm fans that say that. Might be pretty annoying for them if people keep comparing another game with theirs, of course what else can you reply than "go play that game if you think it's better" then.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 12:00 AM |
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@Galaad
That is true in a sense. So I’ve been following this game since they announced it in 2019, and while they probably never claimed to be a spiritual successor specifically, they definitely didn’t shy away from comparing things to Homm on their discord. There was even a section in their FAQ titled “how this game differs from Heroes”, which I think could have had a few more bullet points after playing the game. Another thing they’d reiterate is that this is seen as a single player game to them. I just don’t know if I believe that.
For the record I don’t even hold heroes 3 to this higher standard. I like it as much as I like h2 and h4, they’re all great. I just want SoC to be another great game that I can go back to and have a different experience nearly every time I play. If they want to replace a long list of features in their version of a heroes game( or “strategy adventure”) that’s fine, but don’t just remove it and add nothing.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 12:18 AM |
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Somewhat related but one moment that stands out to me was a week when they were going over some adventure map buildings on their discord server, and some people had asked about how often they refresh and may be re-visited. And their head guy in charge was specifically saying “every new week”, which any heroes fan would easily recognize.
There is no day/week system, it’s always just counted rounds.
It’s like, even to them this is a heroes game. Because of course it is, but why is that such a bad thing?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 14, 2022 01:28 AM |
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I think you are reading too much into it. He says their main games where Age of Wonders and King Bounty, which are also similar to Heroes. He mentions Heroes II only for the art direction.
I read the sentence bugging you differently : they want to make their own game, even though they are conscious of their inspirations. They mention they want to love what they do and I understand they don't want to be enslaved by some other games. It's their own IP. I think it's a good thing.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 02:10 AM |
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I’m not just talking about the recent interview.
And I genuinely do not understand the “unique IP” argument when it’s actually an existing IP with some tweaks. If this was more unique of a game then sure, but It’s heroes with only a few redesigned features, and a lot less RNG. We’ve said it ourselves that you can jump right in and instantly know how to play for the most part just from being heroes fans. That certainly wasn’t the case when I played age of wonders, KB, or disciples for the first time.
Honestly, I wish them the best and I hope I eat my words by the time the full release comes out. But since it’s EA release, I’ve been struggling to play and finish a full game. It’s an all too familiar feeling from heroes 6 and 7
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