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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 29, 2022 09:43 PM |
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No, it's just a vastly improved HoMM. No AoW, no Warlock, just HoMM. Can't wait for the next factions.
It's a killer game.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted May 29, 2022 11:53 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
No, it's just a vastly improved HoMM. No AoW, no Warlock, just HoMM. Can't wait for the next factions.
It's a killer game.
'tis great for sure, but I wouldn't rush to put it above HoMM. At least, not yet
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 30, 2022 10:51 AM |
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Compare the vanilla H3 with SoC in EA, and SoC as a game without all the hindsight and WoG and whatnot is clearly superior.
I mean, it SHOULD be superior because you'd expect the same thing from them than you expected from Ubisoft: make a successor game that IMPROVES on HoMM.
Ubisoft failed with their 3 strikes. Not completely, but ultimately, because their strikes didn't get any better.
This one, finally, is the real deal and does what it is supposed to.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 30, 2022 02:29 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:30, 30 May 2022.
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Heroes 5 was not a failure at all, on the contrary. Granted it was not in the spirit of its predecessors, but it was still a great game. Heroes 6 could be argued that it was technically not a failure, but at that point one is grasping at straws to give credit to a game that was ultimately not fun. It was Erwan le Breton's true vision for the franchise and it was going in the wrong direction. Heroes 7 was the loss of that direction in an attempt to pander to an increasingly dissatisfied fanbase that wanted a "best of" game, jeopardizing creative vision and cohesion between elements. The end result of that approach was coined best with the phrase "frankenstein monster", an atrocity that had no reason to exist. I played all of these games and wouldn't simply sweep them under the same rug of "3 strikes failed". Although I do share the sentiment that chronologically they did not get better. After 5 it was a downward slope. And now the franchise is in limbo.
But, where every Ubisoft M&M title failed, Songs of Conquests succeeded brilliantly. And that's in the fact that the game is a veritable "going back to the roots" done right. By that I mean that it masterfully evokes the old spirit of HoMaM while also preserving and improving the functionality of the old style of gameplay. Right now I have clocked 80 hours on it, a decent amount spent in the map editor. It is simply a joy! The devs at Lavapotion have managed a feat I thought impossible - adapting an almost lost-to-time formula to today's standards while keeping its soul intact. This is undoubtedly the game that I've been waiting for in all these years.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2022 02:51 PM |
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Well, I have high hopes as well, but I'm worried the devs must rush to implement a lot of things (mainly harder and more competent AI) before people lose interest in the game. I know we are talking about early access here, but this is the time to seize the momentum:
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 30, 2022 04:00 PM |
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Gandalf196 said:
before people lose interest in the game
Interesting. Surely this is not the golden age of gaming, even the technology has improved, but..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 30, 2022 07:37 PM |
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@ Stevie
I somewhat disagree with you about the old games. Heroes 5 was a good game, true, but did it really make the game any better with squares on the battlefield, creatures with different sizes, the very limited spell system, the limited Heroes and so on? Imo, the game was a dead end, since it worked only because of the limitations, leaving not much room to go from there.
It was a good game, but it just delayed the necessary re-invention of the game.
M & M VI was supposed to be that. There are a lot of things in that game that I like, but sadly hero development and the skill system was a complete desaster and no fun at all.
VII? Yeah, we agree with that one. That one feels so completely wrong in every regard...
Anyway, let's hope SoC works out. It still needs something, but game version is 0.75, so there is a lot of room till 1.00.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2022 09:07 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
@ Stevie
I somewhat disagree with you about the old games. Heroes 5 was a good game, true, but did it really make the game any better with squares on the battlefield, creatures with different sizes, the very limited spell system, the limited Heroes and so on? Imo, the game was a dead end, since it worked only because of the limitations, leaving not much room to go from there.
It was a good game, but it just delayed the necessary re-invention of the game.
M & M VI was supposed to be that. There are a lot of things in that game that I like, but sadly hero development and the skill system was a complete desaster and no fun at all.
VII? Yeah, we agree with that one. That one feels so completely wrong in every regard...
Anyway, let's hope SoC works out. It still needs something, but game version is 0.75, so there is a lot of room till 1.00.
Would you care pointing your finger at it?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 30, 2022 09:48 PM |
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1) AI. Although - difficult. Strategic AI must get better, of course, but tactical AI is difficult because there are so many tactical options what with single units giving essence.
2) Minimum of two more factions
3) Sim turns to reel in the MP community.
RMG might be a thing, but not necessarily with 1.00.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 31, 2022 12:12 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:14, 31 May 2022.
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Mine would be:
1. AI since its horrendous right now, barely moves on the map, not challenging at all, but still takes a lot of time to finish a turn. Fortunately, they said they're working on it.
2. Underground and sea navigation, for traversal and expanding a map's possibilities. These would surely be appreciated by mapmakers.
3. Needs 4 more factions to have enough variety. I don't care it's double the amount we have right now, factions are the lifeblood of the game.
4. RMG with a good bunch of adjustable features.
5. Sim turns for MP, sure.
6. Loth necromancy rework, since it's just underwhelming and goes obsolete very fast.
7. An option to increase maximum creature stacks at the beginning of a map. I say let people who like big armies have their wish.
And then a myriad of quality of life features and additions, too many to mention. Well, maybe with one exception - my Tier 3 upgrades idea, which I went to great lengths to describe in detail as best as possible given the 1000 characters limitation, but which nonetheless received only 5 votes, and one being mine... FeelsBadMan
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 31, 2022 04:35 AM |
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I’d also add there is still work to be done with the current factions. There’s a lot of repeat abilities as well as similar abilities. The Main game design dev said he will have no more than 3 units with the same ability, preferably 2, by the time of release. Looking forward to that.
I’m also hoping for more variety in things like dwelling and unit costs. I like in H2 for example, when some factions are noticeably cheaper and cost mostly ore/wood to construct their dwellings.
More factions will be great but without more unit variety it’ll just be more of the same. I’m hoping flying units become a thing somewhere down the line. Faction unique buildings could also be nice.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted May 31, 2022 10:29 AM |
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Did anyone else find the static nature of the game’s design to be a problem?
When I look at Heroes 3, a lot of things could happen during the game that would influence my strategy. For example:
- Finding or assembling Cloak of the Undead King, where I would focus on using it to build up an army of wights or liches
- Capturing a Rampart with its Treasury, where I’d start saving gold to get interest on it, and give higher priority to building creature dwellings
- Using diplomacy to gather an army of beholders following a month of the creature
An alternative approach was taken by Ancient Empires 2 – a mobile game I got hooked on back in 2000s. It has a tiny fraction of the content, but tremendous replayability due to its battlefield containing locations of strategic value, and numerous ways to marshal one’s forces around them.
I haven’t found a similar hook in Songs of Conquest, where I’d start a new game just to see how it might develop. I’ve tried building a dragon army with Rana, the rats-only strategy with Loth, rushing the AI, but don’t want to do any of these things again. Instead of getting sucked into the game, I keep teetering on the verge of losing interest because none of the strategies seem to have replay value, at least in single-player games.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 31, 2022 03:24 PM |
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I don’t really have that problem. They have powerful artifacts that will shift my army’s strategy around depending on what I find.
Diplomacy is in the game.
I also find the “power” level ups will influence whether I should shift strategies.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 31, 2022 04:23 PM |
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Groovy said:
none of the strategies seem to have replay value
without having played the game, I venture to guess because it has no strategy or deeper economics, while still being 'balanced' on the superficial level. Hence you can only logically do one thing - where is the game?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 31, 2022 05:38 PM |
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Actually, it has VERY different strategies AND a deep economic. This is because you have so many building choices.
Your starting town comes with at least one small building slot, which leaves you 8 possible builds, 6 of them being actually viable: the first is a tier upgrade of that town (giving you more money and more building slots), then you can build either of two low level creature dwellings, or either of a stone or wood producing place, and lastly a gold producing place. Every one is upgradable, but the medium dwellings and especially their upgrades need prerequisites. Medium builds take 2 days, large 3, but upgrades are possible immediately, and initially you have one build per town only (but can research 2, but that needs a certain large building).
So there is actually a very complex economy involved, and you basically need to take stock of your likely resource income in order to assess your strategy. A very important point here is that a creature stack produces "essences" in battle - different creatures produce different essences, there are 5 different essences and in order to cast spells you need a certain number of them or even a combination.
Which means, you may go for a weaker creature because it gives you important essences, and it is a natural encouragement to use all available creature slots (most heroes starting with 3, but you can get up to 9 with the Command skill). On the other hand, losing a stack hands the opponent a boost (like a spell)...
Apart from that I find Groovy's example not very convincing. Cloak of the Undead King simply means "I win, period". Capturing a Rampart and going for interest means you got a lot of gold that you don't actually need to invest into anything - you cannot be very hard-pressed in such a situation.
And using Diplomacy after ANY Month of event isn't really "strategy" either. You NEED a hero with Diplomacy for that, so your strategy was either to pick a Diplomacy hero from the start, aiming to get a lots of joins, Month of or not, or to hire and develop a hero to Expert Diplomacy later on in expectation for a Month of Event (and again, playing Necro EVERYthing is useful, even Month of the Imp).
Bottom line is, SoC, involves a lot of PLANNING - but you will see "events" that may change that: you may get joins of troops your planning didn't include, for example, and you may find artifacts that change something as well. When you take the central town of another player you have 3 options what to do with it: Raze (takes a couple of days depending on tier), Convert (needs a hero to stay in 1 day for each tier or Occupy (works a bit like the Grail).
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 01, 2022 12:50 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 00:59, 01 Jun 2022.
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Quote:
(and again, playing Necro EVERYthing is useful, even Month of the Imp)
Bad example, Month of the Imp isn't an "even" since it's probably one of the best if not the best for necro.
Heroes 3 does involve planning in initial hero and town, and further skill coices, as well as build order choices (example, go for Wyverns as Fortress or not). Choosing what hero to develop as main is also a great decision, particularly if you good a good one from other facton in the tavern.
Rampart interest (moived to order town in H4) is actually a choice, because it's not obvious to go for interest. You either coose to try to spend your money in buildings/creatures and end the game fast, or to save the treasure and be weaker now in hopes of increasing your power for later.
Cloak of the Undead King may be game over when you get it, but if you see ONE of its parts in Artifact Merchant, it's still an important decision if to spend to get it in hopes of asembling later, or just let it slide and put that money elsewhere.
The thing is, these decisions are calculated risks. The examples you, JJ mentioned, are not risks. They are just mechanics. Thus you don't really have a grander "stake" to lose.
H4 involves even more planning as building a creature dwelling disables the other one (it loses hero specialties unless specifically scripted tho, IMO a terrible choice).
***
I haven't player SoC but y'all heretics for saying it's better than Heroes 
Specially if it doesn't even have faction unique special buildings, lying units, many unique abilities or very advanced magic system...
Yeah it may be "streamlined" but content is content, Heroes games have typically lots of content (even H6 compared to Songs of Conquest) and without enough content it cannot compare.
The pixel art style looks very hard to mod.
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Never changing = never improving
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 01, 2022 08:45 AM |
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We are at version 0.75 with SoC. HoMM 3 version 0.75 doesn't even have all that.
And "calculated risks" are not strategy, but gambling. As it is a calculated risk to attack "many" without further information, when a certain formation or a number above 40 or so will give me a lot of trouble, but the gain will be "worth" it.
That isn't STRATEGY.
The examples I mentioned are not "mechanics". They are planning and choosing, only that the choice is not just about this or that creature dwelling. Imagine Heroes IV had 3 tiers of building spaces, a limited number of them, and each building would fit into one of tiers. You had a lot more choosing to do than just between two creatures of the same tier (and of course you are not always and really free in your choice, since there are prerequisites).
And by the way, in SoC there are currently 3 hero types for each faction and all have specials. 
So before you throw your hat into the ring you may want to try playing the game first.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 01, 2022 04:21 PM |
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Gandalf196 said:
JollyJoker said:
And by the way, in SoC there are currently 3 hero types for each faction and all have specials.
More like differente +X bonuses. Heroes V, for instance, is miles ahead in terms of class uniquity
JollyJoker said:
We are at version 0.75 with SoC.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 01, 2022 04:42 PM |
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I'm sorry; I deleted my post by mistake, but I really want to believe that your hope is not misplaced, I mean, 0.75 is three quarters done... 1/4 could be a random map generator, +1 faction and they will call it a wrap.
Don't misjudge my position, though, this is by far and unequivocally, the best "spiritual successor" to HoMM 2/3 we've had so far, but I fear the devs may find themselves too comfort and deliver a beautiful, but ultimately shallow game.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted June 01, 2022 06:35 PM |
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Gandalf196 said:
beautiful
none of you are aware of 1980's street fighter 'breathing'
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This thread is pages long: 
