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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2022 08:10 AM |
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artu said:
Havent played this at all but if all factions are too much alike as they say, doesnt that defeat the purpose of having a random faction?
They aren't, though. The thing that works against them is that there are only 4 factions at this point.
Other than that, there is also - thankfully - no "faction ability". And since "ranged" doesn't mean "beating the crap out of anything with a couple of single unit stacks as guards", you can't just take a couple of way overpowered troops and get everything done. Instead you need a meaningful plan and what makes things interesting is you need magic support from the get-go and will get it as well.
What is equal for all factions is, that they all have two small troop dwellings, three medium ones and one large ones, two of the medium ones allowing to give two different creatures.
Comparing the 2 small units (which is what you actually have to make something out of):
Faction 1 has a Militia unit that shoots, but only every other turn, since they will reload. The second unit is a medium strong support unit (Minstrel) which will buff defense and resistance of your other troops, but has medium melee punch as well.
Faction 2 relies on a Hyena-like beast who has the ability to retaliate before the attacker hits with low initiative, though. The second unit is the Piper. This is by no means a minstrel, since it is very weak, has no retaliation and buffs Initiative (the upgrade buffs offense and defense).
Faction 3 has a pretty good melee unit (the upgrade doubling HPs) and a pretty good ranged unit (again the upgrade being pretty good), which is pretty straightforward.
Faction 4 has Rats, which are pretty fast, but also pretty low on HP and Skeletons - which you canot build readily, since you already need precious resources for the BASIC building. You can instead go for a medium building, since you need only the basic resources for the basic version which gives you a shooter that is not that great in it's basic version, but very difficult to upgrade. Since this is the building that gives only one creature, you are not that inclined to give it your first medium building spot, though.
See, the important question is, what essences your troops will give you, because that will enable you to cast spells: Basic units give you
Faction 1: Militia: 1 Order, Minstrel: 1 Chaos 1 Creation
Faction 2: Dreath: 1 Chaos, Piper: 2 Order
Faction 3: Hunter: 1 Creation, 1 Destruction, Shaman: 1 Creation, 1 Arcana
Faction 4: Rat: 1 Destruction, Oathbound: 1 Order, 1 Destruction (if you go for Toxicologist: 1 Destruction, 1 Arcana)
As you can imagine, this means different magic (every faction has access to 3 of the 5 essences via their creatures, but can get access to the others via Hero skills, artifacts and map objects (non-permanently). And the combination of different troops and different magic makes them very different - in my opinion.
It also means that you can have 10 different factions in the game. 
And the game is currently at 25% discount on Steam and also on GoG, I think. On Steam you can give a game back when you've played it less than 2 hours - so go ahead and check it out, it's very good.
I edit this to add that a quick check at Steam gives 86% positive reviews (with 2215 reviews, all in all). That's pretty good.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 30, 2022 01:16 PM |
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My girlfriend will be coming from Istanbul this saturday, so downloading a new game may not be the wisesest choice at moment.  Maybe later but thanks for the tip anyway.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2022 01:20 PM |
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Ah, congrats.
It will be another week on offer, so you've got time.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted July 01, 2022 11:52 AM |
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Maybe Fanstratics (terrible name, Jesus Christ...) will be it
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 01, 2022 01:34 PM |
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 01, 2022 11:01 PM |
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Hard bet on Fantratics (or however that's spelled), that thing has Greg Fulton on it, while these are some dumb gen Zs that believe that everything issolved by "stramlining" (TM) also known as cutting features.
Youtubers and twtichers are literally paid for their biased promos, putting a link to the "Offer" in the desc just confirm this.
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Never changing = never improving
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 01, 2022 11:50 PM |
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And then there are those who don't even need to play a game to know it's crap and everyone praising or publicly expressing a liking is either paid or stupid.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 01:17 AM |
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Songs of Conquest isn't a bad game or a waste of time. Fairly priced imo. It is just disappointing that it seems to be settling with being decent when it could be really great.
I read just one sentence in the description of Fanstratic's centaur and it already sounds like that game would have more depth than SoC could ever hope for...(if it actually gets made)
"While the Elven Centaur is the Thornwood’s only true ‘heavy’ Troop, it is relatively fast and agile when compared to other ‘heavies’ from other factions."
While it might be a stretch, it already sounds like faction concepts would be more unique. It acknowledges a reoccurring unit type, (Heavy troops) and that the forest faction has a fewer number of those and, they're a speedier version. This is something I desperately want from SoC troops. But for whatever reason they wanted to go H6 style and drop the unit tier count to 3 and then every faction gets a bunch of similar units of similar power levels. None of the factions are particularly bad or good at anything. Every faction gets access to multiple ranged troops if they want to build archery, or multiple tanky melee troops if they want to build melee..etc. Im sure there are technical answers to which faction is best at what, and most of those answers would involve repeating how the essence system works and adds so many possiblities 
But it is a pretty picture, which goes a long way 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 02, 2022 07:02 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
And then there are those who don't even need to play a game to know it's crap and everyone praising or publicly expressing a liking is either paid or stupid.
I also don't need to have sex with the Queen of England to know she's undesirable.
At least my opinion wasn't bought.
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Never changing = never improving
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 09:32 AM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
But for whatever reason they wanted to go H6 style and drop the unit tier count to 3 and then every faction gets a bunch of similar units of similar power levels. None of the factions are particularly bad or good at anything. Every faction gets access to multiple ranged troops if they want to build archery, or multiple tanky melee troops if they want to build melee..etc.
What would make you say that? I mean, what kind of tier concept do you have, and how many "tiers" have HoMM games before 6 (mind you, I agree that H6 indeed has only 3 unit tiers)? HoMM 4 obviously has FOUR unit tiers. HoMM 1 and 2 have 6 different creatures which can be identified by their growth per week and their increasing price, while Homm 3 and 5 have 7 different creatures per town, but are that really 6 and 7 tiers, respectively? And what is "tier" based upon? The power/cost of a single creature? The power/cost of the weekly production with or without growth-increasing buildings? I mean, let's compare the cost (as a means of power) of single creatures and full productions of the 4 Knightish towns here: (numbers show cost of 1/full production of tiers); with upgrades available I take the upgrades.
Homm 1: 20/440 150/1500 200/1400 250/1500 300/1500 600/2400+Res
Homm 2: 20/440 200/2000 250/1750 300/1800 375/1875 1000/4000+Res
Homm 3: 75/2100 150/2700 240/4080 400/3200 450/2700 1200/4800 5000/10000+Res
Homm 5: 30/1470 80/1920 130/2600 360/3600 900/5400 1550/6200 4200/8400+res
What you can safely say is that in HoMM 5 a single creature of any tier costs more than all the single creatures of all lower tiers together, while all creatures of a tier costs more than all creatures of every single lower tier.
This is ONLY the case in HoMM 5 - the rest isn't as clear-cut, though.
Now, what about SoC? With SoC, there is no weekly production. That's not because there is daily production, but because you can basically build a dwelling as often as you want. You don't have to build every dwelling - and you can put smaller dwellings on larger building spaces.
The first thing you'll notice in SoC is that the upgrades are WAY better than the basic units: unit prices for human/elf faction are:
Militia/sapper 100/150
Minstrel/Troubadour 140/250
-----------------------------
Ranger/Archer 200/300
Footman/Shield of Order 200/320
..............................
Knights/Fists of Order 700/1000+res
...................................
Spirits/Ragers 250/450
Horned Ones/ Queen's Guards 650/1000
....................................
------------------------------------
Nobles/Queens 1200+res/1800+2res
(Units between .......... shares the same building space; -------- devides building space sizes.
What about tiers here? Obviously, Ranger/Footman not only shares the same building spaces (although not the same building) they are of equal tier. Spirits/Horned Ones, though, are not, surely.
So with a view on the other HoMM games, you have Militia as T1. If Ranger/Footman is not T3, but just T2, then Minstrel is either powerful T1 or weak T2. Spirits/Ragers would be T3 (it's a pretty extreme unit with 6 HPs and 8-12 damage, a glassier cannon than everything you've ever seen in HoMM). T4 are Knights and Horned Ones (one costing a resource, mind you) plus a lonely T5 with the Nobles/Queens).
I see a lot more variation here than in HoMM 2 and not less than in HoMM 3. It's true that Homm 5 "refined" that - but frankly, if you have completely DIFFERENT unit types, like an Archer and a Footman, there is nothing wrong with them being of the same actual tier, and the game not making them artificially different in price. They are pretty different in stats and role, though.
So I fail to see your point here.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 09:39 AM |
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NimoStar said:
JollyJoker said:
And then there are those who don't even need to play a game to know it's crap and everyone praising or publicly expressing a liking is either paid or stupid.
I also don't need to have sex with the Queen of England to know she's undesirable.
At least my opinion wasn't bought.
I'll admit that the comparison is sounding interesting, but it's also one of the most absurd and incongruous ones I ever stumbled upon.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 07:12 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What would make you say that? I mean, what kind of tier concept do you have, and how many "tiers" have HoMM games before 6 (mind you, I agree that H6 indeed has only 3 unit tiers)?
Tier systems are part of the framework for the factions and whether or not they're interesting to me is how well power levels and unit types are divided amongst the tiers. Things like unit cost, dwelling costs, and creature growth should reflect that and add to the variety.
I say 3 tiers in SoC only because that is what the game divides them up as. Small/medium/large, or low/medium/high. This is also reflected in the map editor when picking neutral stack power levels with those three as the options. We could say within the small and medium tier there is the "weaker" and "stronger" versions. Also, by design they want the lines between the tiers to be blurry. For example, troubadours might be a small dwelling unit, but they have a greater attack stat than anything from the barracks except the archer which has the same value. It's hard for me to say the troubadour is weaker than anything from the barracks just because it has slightly lower hp for a melee troop. It also has the same growth rate. Plus, it's a music unit which I would think makes up for the lower hp. The stat hp differences are more clear with the medium -> large tier but you'll still see many other stats of the "stronger" mediums close to or greater when comparing them. Dragons being the only major exception.
With less tiers and the tier differences being less obvious by design, it is difficult to differentiate 8 troops to a faction. Especially when there is only a few variations of units due to the design limitations of abilities and movement. They want to have this warcraft-style approach where each faction has access to everything, and you're not really supposed to build every unit. No faction is particularly better or worse at anything either. All the factions can counter each other and the game outcome is largely impacted on who went what units. (Lets take a moment to remind ourselves that this is built as a single-player game from the ground up ).
For a lot of people, the "every faction has everything, there's so many option" approach might be the best thing about SoC, but I find it to be its weakest point and a big reason why i'm bored with the game. I fully agree that within one faction of SoC there is more options than any one faction from a heroes game. But I disagree that the four factions in SoC as a whole have more variety or options than any four factions taken out of heroes 1-5.
Even in Heroes 1 this is achieved with only 4 factions and no hero skills and hardly any unit abilities. In your example about the H1 and H2 knight, the paladins do not cost a rare resource which sets them apart from their sorta counterpart, the cyclops (both being weaker tier6 units with +1 growth). The whole town is based on cheaper units with cheap dwellings and mostly melee, with an emphasis on defense and slow -> fast speed as the tier increases. The Barbarian is similar with cheaper units and dwellings, and no fliers, but does the opposite of everything else the knight does. Best ranged unit in the game, emphasis on attack with low defense, less prerequisite buildings and where there are slower units for the knight, there are faster units for the barbarian, and vice versa. (Except the archer/orc)
If we're comparing the knight and barbarian to Arelon and Barya, there are still more options in SoC, but the units are already looking similar. One faction doesn't have anything the others don't also have just as good of access to. Arelon has more shooters but Barya has the stronger shooters. Arelon has more defensive units but barya has more defensive abilities (Pikeneer's guard, Dreath's quicken, Assassin's no retaliation). Each faction has the same "upper mid tier" ogre-type unit. They all have a "lower mid tier" defensive melee troop. There are no flying units allowed and only one music troop per faction with a similar effect.
So as 2 more factions get added on this is where I feel even Heroes 1 evens out with SoC as far as faction diversity goes. The sorceress and warlock are totally different from the knight and barbarian in that they have a new unit type, fliers, and they have higher unit and dwelling costs as a whole. They also differentiate from each other by having the Sorceress focus more on fliers, speed and ranged power while the warlock has the most fliers and tankier units in general with the worst ranged power in the game.
Loth and Rana on the other hand do not have totally different faction concepts and unit types when compared to Arelon and Barya. They have a few outliers for sure, like the faey spirits, but the game's own limitations make those units less special for me; why cant they have more than 5 movement like all the other "faster" units? Is the low movement the reason why it has to rely on the "wait" command, like its Rana and barya counter parts (shades, riders of swamp)? Why does their growth rate have to fall under the same 1-2 range of every medium unit? I also find dwelling costs very similar across every faction. Yes, loth has a small building that costs 2 amber, but its not as if that is a continued trend with the rest of Loth's dwelling or unit costs. It also makes up for it immediately with the next tier by having two medium dwellings cost only common resources in Loth.
One SoC faction might have four different ways to play, but I find they each play similarly even in those four different ways. Heroes 1 factions have but one play style each, but they're unique to each other. Once we add two more factions from Heroes 2, we have 6 unique playstyles. SoC will add more factions as well, but I strongly feel they'll have the same four different (but similar) ways to play, unless they add more variety to unit types, abilities, and spells, while also increasing the range of default movement so troops can shine more without needing the right research or the correct hero power. which I do not see them doing since it would require more work and they want to add new content instead. Yes, the essence system adds to the uniqueness of what the factions bring, but I don't want to use magic all the time and fit it into every build. The factions and units should be able to stand apart on their own.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 08:44 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
JollyJoker said:
What would make you say that? I mean, what kind of tier concept do you have, and how many "tiers" have HoMM games before 6 (mind you, I agree that H6 indeed has only 3 unit tiers)?
Tier systems are part of the framework for the factions and whether or not they're interesting to me is how well power levels and unit types are divided amongst the tiers. Things like unit cost, dwelling costs, and creature growth should reflect that and add to the variety.
I say 3 tiers in SoC only because that is what the game divides them up as. Small/medium/large, or low/medium/high. This is also reflected in the map editor when picking neutral stack power levels with those three as the options.
Well - no, because in that case you'd have only "medium tier" creatures in "medium strong" random stacks, which isn't the case. The stacks are mixed not in regard to different troops as well as different sizes. So Quote:
We could say within the small and medium tier there is the "weaker" and "stronger" versions.
that we canNOT say. Instead, at this point the cheapest creature costs 60 gold and the most expensive costs 3200 gold + 5 resources.
Moreover, the building system is to be viewed that way, that you have so many spaces to build on. A small one lets you build one of 7 buldings, a medium one out of 11, and a large one out of 14 possible buildings. If you build something that doesn't change in any way the options for your next build - you still have the same one. (Still, there are building conditions, so you can't just build anything you want.)
So, no. I can make a case of HoMM 1/2 having 3 tiers only, because tiers 2-5 are so equal, although that would be a very one-sided view, but the same is true for SoC. Three tiers because of building size? That's just not valid. We have the small Sage costing 340 which is more than some medium upgraded creatures, and we have the medium bones for 900 and 1400 gold, respectively.
Quote:
Especially when there is only a few variations of units due to the design limitations of abilities and movement. They want to have this warcraft-style approach where each faction has access to everything, and you're not really supposed to build every unit. No faction is particularly better or worse at anything either. All the factions can counter each other and the game outcome is largely impacted on who went what units. (Lets take a moment to remind ourselves that this is built as a single-player game from the ground up ).
One SoC faction might have four different ways to play, but I find they each play similarly even in those four different ways. Heroes 1 factions have but one play style each, but they're unique to each other. Once we add two more factions from Heroes 2, we have 6 unique playstyles. SoC will add more factions as well, but I strongly feel they'll have the same four different (but similar) ways to play, unless they add more variety to unit types, abilities, and spells, while also increasing the range of default movement so troops can shine more without needing the right research or the correct hero power. which I do not see them doing since it would require more work and they want to add new content instead. Yes, the essence system adds to the uniqueness of what the factions bring, but I don't want to use magic all the time and fit it into every build. The factions and units should be able to stand apart on their own.
Now, this may be the right place to point that some people make a bid deal about the fact that you cannot play with the unizs of other factions - but what is the play with units of another faction other than OVERCOME the character of your faction. (Not to mention that you can change the character of a faction by playing with different heroes than those of your faction. PLUS, I seem to remember people trying to obtain magic thes have no access to by conquering a different town with a different magic guild.
Which leads me to the conclusion that people like the "given character" of a HoMM faction only to overcome it, if necessary.
I also don't see this "countering" of specific builds in SoC, because you just don't know what build you will encounter, before you actually happen to meet them.
Which is a lot more fun than knowing beforehand what your opponent can field. Look no further than HoMM 4 to have a game that allowed totally different set-ups of one and the same faction - including magic.
Which brings me zo it.
So you don't want to use magic all the time and fit it into every build. That's a pretty subjective point. Heroes of Might ans MAGIC. You might think you could also say you don't want to use might all the time and fit into every build then...
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 09:52 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Well - no, because in that case you'd have only "medium tier" creatures in "medium strong" random stacks, which isn't the case.
I think you misunderstood me. There are three options for power/unit type in the editor (that the devs use to make the maps) which is low/medium/high, and that determines what troops will be in the stack. How many troops in the stack will depend on the value amount you give it.
For Arelon, "low" would include up to the barracks. "Medium" would be mostly any mix of medium sized dwellings, with some smalls sometimes thrown in. "High" would be the faey units and knights.
They want to keep it ambiguous like any RTS game with 3 simple tiers of a main base. For me, the lack of a tier system in this kind of game doesn't work as well and makes conversations like this so confusing in the first place. Haven't you noticed the random order that the units are displayed in when you're in the recruitment screen? They're in a different order in the codex as well, for each faction. It also differs from what they had on their discord last I checked.
But again, I go by what the game lays out for me of what to compare things to. Heroes 1+2 has 6 tiers and Heroes 3 has 7. Anything other than that is completely subjective. Are Wyverns in H3 fortress just tier 5 for you because they're weaker in comparison to other tier 6 creatures? Does the week one access and cheap cost doesn't account for anything? I definitely don't agree with looking at it like that.
JollyJoker said:
You might think you could also say you don't want to use might SKILLS all the time and fit into every build then
Yeah I mean that should be possible. It doesn't have to be the number one build in the game. This philosphy of "if its not balanced then it doesn't belong" is just silly for a single player game. Your hero wielder and their build shouldn't define what the faction can bring to the table, it should complement it.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 10:29 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
JollyJoker said:
Well - no, because in that case you'd have only "medium tier" creatures in "medium strong" random stacks, which isn't the case.
I think you misunderstood me. There are three options for power/unit type in the editor (that the devs use to make the maps) which is low/medium/high, and that determines what troops will be in the stack. How many troops in the stack will depend on the value amount you give it.
For Arelon, "low" would include up to the barracks. "Medium" would be mostly any mix of medium sized dwellings, with some smalls sometimes thrown in. "High" would be the faey units and knights.
I understood you right. The stacks not only say low, medium, high, they also have the amount of gold listed. Which makes the tier characteriuation based on the editor meaningless, especially since they are mixed in more ways then you say. High and medium "zier" is mixed as well.
It's also riduclious to claim that H3 has 7 "tiers". It hasn't. Homm 5 is the game you can make a point for that (although the editor might say something else), but not H3.
Quote:
But again, I go by what the game lays out for me of what to compare things to. Heroes 1+2 has 6 tiers and Heroes 3 has 7.
Err, no. Not in any MEANINGFUL way, sorry.
JollyJoker said:
You might think you could also say you don't want to use might SKILLS all the time and fit into every build then
Yeah I mean that should be possible. It doesn't have to be the number one build in the game. This philosphy of "if its not balanced then it doesn't belong" is just silly for a single player game. Your hero wielder and their build shouldn't define what the faction can bring to the table, it should complement it.
Sorry, I don't understand you. The game you like is called HEROES of M&M, not CREATURES. OF COURSE the hero should (and does) define what happens, that's the whole point. Creatures are secondary - that's why a good hero can beat a creature army that is much stronger than their own. And "balanced" just means that there is no obvious winning strategy that is better than everything else. Currently the game isn't balanced.
And you can't just add the word "skills" because you didn't say and mean magi skills either - this isn't a creature game.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 10:41 PM |
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I guess I’ve been enjoying these games for the wrong reasons all these years. Thanks for clearing that up for me lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2022 11:01 PM |
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No, you simply enjoyed the games. For which reasons you did, is another question. There will be differences - you won't enjoy all HoMM games alike. And SoC is more in the boring range for you. Bad luck for you. But that doesn't mean you have more than just subjective reasons. The game isn't "objectively" worse than HoMM. Iz just doesn't hit your sweet spot.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 03, 2022 03:05 AM |
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Is this game multiplayer with pvp?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2022 09:35 AM |
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You can play pvp. Beta branch is currently testing a first SimTurn iteration. You can play sp as well.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 03, 2022 11:45 AM |
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Quote:
The game you like is called HEROES of M&M, not CREATURES. OF COURSE the hero should (and does) define what happens, that's the whole point. Creatures are secondary
Sorry but no. The game might as well be called creatures of might and magic.
What is more important for a faction, having warlocks or having Black Dragons and Mana Vortex?
Hero classes in H3 are seldom discussed at all. They just change some primary+secondary skill distributions.
We discuss individual heroes mostly because theyr dynamic specialties. "wielders" don't have any that scales.
"Wielder" classes in SoC seem even more ethereal in that they don't even have primary skills, and don't really need to learn spells in a separate meaningful way. Also unlike Necromancy or Leadership there is not even faction aligned skills...
So eben if you think the hero part is so wow there is not only less creature substance, there is also less hero substance as well.
BTW Heroes4, 5 at least had barbarian factions which by design had no access to magic. So the heroes of might "AND MAGIC" you said is extremely biased as a justification to force you to use and consider magic as a core element for any and all playstyles. Even in H3 you can play without magic and the game experience will not be irremediably damaged.
____________
Never changing = never improving
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This thread is pages long: 
