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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 14, 2022 03:12 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 03:13, 14 Jun 2022.
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Quote:
And I genuinely do not understand the “unique IP” argument when it’s actually an existing IP with some tweaks.
IP is not just for game design it's also from a marketing standpoint. They want to be able to say this is their "own thing" and a "reinvention of the genre" because that is a marketing point, AND it also makes it less likely they will be sued by ubi, which certainly mayhave crossed their minds (even though game mechanics aren't copyrightable, terminology is)
So, I see both their point and theirs.
However, though I believe you don't understand the nuances involved, on the other hand I do side with you in that it seems thattheir mechanics isn't as complete and it's not a valid argument that "doing their thing" is just doing less things and a more simplified game.
H3 was already simple enough for me to play it as a child and not feel lost so why should this need to be simpler?
I hate it when writers, game developers, programmers etc. treat their audience as stupid "tHat's tOo hArD" when it clearly wasn0t in sucessful things before. I fear we as a culture are actually becoming more stupid as a result.
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Never changing = never improving
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 14, 2022 12:27 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:30, 14 Jun 2022.
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The_Green_Drag said:
And I genuinely do not understand the “unique IP” argument when it’s actually an existing IP with some tweaks.
But it is not. The store description says : Songs of Conquest is a turn-based strategy game inspired by 90s classics.
And that's exactly what it is. As Nimo says gameplay mechanics can't be copyrighted. If you see the game too much as an "upgraded Heroes" you are bound to get disappointed, because that is not what the game intends to be. It's just another variant of what makes the core of a TBS game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 12:32 PM |
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And it certainly isn't "simplified" - on the contrary.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 02:21 PM |
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Yeah I didn’t think about the marketing aspect. Avoiding calling it a spiritual successor is probably for the best then.
Heroes 6 also wanted to simplify the game and remove most of the RNG aspect. It’s strange to see some of what people hated there, being praised here. Like less creature tiers, very little troop identity with no troop mixing, a lot less RNG. Even some H7 ideas made it in like 3 hero classes to divide up all the skill options offered. These are amongst the lows that keep bringing me down when I try to play nowadays. I wish I could put the rose tinted glasses back on 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 14, 2022 03:05 PM |
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To me the problems you describe sound like they might be moddable things (except the insufficient RNG richness aspect)
For the rest, it will come dow to the question if the game is moddable or not. And also possibly if it will have expansions- remember H3 map generation was only added in an expansion and wasn't in the base game. And this is also a reason why H4 is relatively weaker, it has no ingame map generator.
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Never changing = never improving
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 03:18 PM |
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It is supposed to be, so that’s certainly a good thing. I trust the devs when they say they’ll do something (specific) like that.
But if that’s how I’m looking at things then I’m in the same boat as heroes 7 lol. An okay base game with weird changes, simplified gameplay and a crappy AI, but it’s moddable 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 14, 2022 03:39 PM |
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Well, at least it won't be as buggy and unoptimized as H7
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Never changing = never improving
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 03:52 PM |
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I'm not sure whether "a lot less RNG" is right.
No more random primary skill advancement, but getting rid of the initial primary skills is actually a good thing - might versus magic was never balanced.
But we have probability-based skill offers working exactly the way it worked in HoMM 3 with the exception that a) the skills are all valid and b) you get a 3rd skill option increasing the number of stacks you can field.
So where is the reduced used of the RNG?
Creature tiers? The main difference between "tiers" or "levels" is the maximum number of creatures allowed in one stack. There we have 100, 50, 30, 20, 15, 10, 5 and 3 - 8 different stack limits (which may be up to doubled via research) and we've also 8 different creatures per faction. For the human/faey faction we have 50/30/20/20/20/10/10/5, for example.
And speaking of research - that is certainly not a simplification of the game. It's just a way to put resources to good uses. Of which you have 2 simple and 3 valuable ones which is certainly the sweet spot.
Town building has become more complex as well - and as opposed to Heroes VII, in a meaningful way.
So I don't understand these points. The game is fine. It goes where Heroes never went and does it a lot better than Ubi - and that's with a game in EA.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 14, 2022 04:32 PM |
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Sory, I just don't engage with religious fanatics 
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Never changing = never improving
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 05:01 PM |
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So no soliloquizing. Good thing, that.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 05:55 PM |
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I'll go over what degree of RNG I miss, but honestly, if you really like their direction then more power to you. I would love to be convinced otherwise but I'm just not seeing it myself and my latest playthroughs just feel so similar.
JollyJoker said:
No more random primary skill advancement, but getting rid of the initial primary skills is actually a good thing - might versus magic was never balanced.
Perhaps it was imbalanced, but I find progression very lacking and removing things to make balance easier is lazy imo. The difference between a level 5 wielder and a level 15 is only a few army and skill slots. When mixing in the research, you can easily lose the fight vs the level 5 wielder if they just build the research building before you, because their troops will be taking a lot less and dishing out a lot more, moving more spaces, etc. I see it as the stats a wielder would get through level ups to give their troops has been redistributed into research for purchase instead. This is a progression problem I have with a drop in RNG.
JollyJoker said:
But we have probability-based skill offers working exactly the way it worked in HoMM 3 with the exception that a) the skills are all valid and b) you get a 3rd skill option increasing the number of stacks you can field.
So where is the reduced used of the RNG?
For this, I would first say they are not all valid. Certainly, better than h3's eagle eye and learning. But there are a few such as "raiding", "tutor", or even "learning" (because after you max your skills, leveling up does nothing because of no stat gain). But my problem here is that the skills are split between 3 heroes instead of two, and they're more restrictive than H3 when it came to what the hero classes can get. They're certainly more restrictive with the magic options because again, balance. The skills you pick also determine which "power" skill you'll have the option of upon reaching level 8. There is just less RNG overall. Tbh, I think they wanted to have players just pick the skills. It would work better with their game design but maybe they remembered the h7 fiasco. #RandomSKills
JollyJoker said:
Creature tiers? The main difference between "tiers" or "levels" is the maximum number of creatures allowed in one stack. There we have 100, 50, 30, 20, 15, 10, 5 and 3 - 8 different stack limits (which may be up to doubled via research) and we've also 8 different creatures per faction. For the human/faey faction we have 50/30/20/20/20/10/10/5, for example.
Gonna be nitpicky, the two on each end have one creature type for that stack size, being rats and dragons. The other 28 creatures fall between the 50-5 range. I wish there was more variety in the game as a whole. The default movement of basically every melee troop is between 3-5, with the frogs and turtles at 2. These troops don't feel like chess pieces, which is something even Homm1 could accomplish. And I cant help but point to their decision to not allow troop mixing. That sucks to me but it'd be fine if the factions had completely different units.
Town building is a nice improvement and more complex, I fully agree. Removing wait and defend is nice, I like Heroes 2.
The spell system, which is also nice, does take away a large part of the RNG because all the spells are known from the start.
So to sum up here I would say (imo) there is less RNG with hero development with stats and skills. Its not removed entirely with the skills but it is lessened to a degree.
There is zero % chance for X thing to happen in this game. No luck or morale no abilities that follow this rule. That makes for some bigger RNG moments SoC will never have. There are a few creature banks, but with fixed armies inside. Extra strong creature banks that give a high tier unit won't be possible because there is no recruiting from other factions. So also, zero random dwellings to take advantage of or recruitment camps with completely random creatures (the small camps are cool but not at all the same). Quest objects on the map is another missing random element. The random weekly events are FAR superior to the random 1 round-only events that affect very little in my experience. Hero taverns and any RNG there is gone you just pick the one you want all the time.
I like SoC's additions. I like SoC's changes for the most part. What I don't like is the removal of so much variety and chance encounters and things that cause me to adjust my strategy. SoC feels more like a turn based warcraft game. Which is a neat idea for sure and I had fun while it lasted but I get this familiar feeling all too much now when I play.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 06:21 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
a turn based warcraft game.
ahh that's why I never caught on..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 06:22 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
JollyJoker said:
No more random primary skill advancement, but getting rid of the initial primary skills is actually a good thing - might versus magic was never balanced.
Perhaps it was imbalanced, but I find progression very lacking and removing things to make balance easier is lazy imo. The difference between a level 5 wielder and a level 15 is only a few army and skill slots. When mixing in the research, you can easily lose the fight vs the level 5 wielder if they just build the research building before you, because their troops will be taking a lot less and dishing out a lot more, moving more spaces, etc. I see it as the stats a wielder would get through level ups to give their troops has been redistributed into research for purchase instead.
I don't think that is right. 10 levels are a lot of difference and research is pretty expensive. Research can't replace hero-levelling, but it's often a viable alternative to your best troop type.
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
But we have probability-based skill offers working exactly the way it worked in HoMM 3 with the exception that a) the skills are all valid and b) you get a 3rd skill option increasing the number of stacks you can field.
For this, I would first say they are not all valid. Certainly, better than h3's eagle eye and learning. But there are a few such as "raiding", "tutor", or even "learning" (because after you max your skills, leveling up does nothing because of no stat gain). But my problem here is that the skills are split between 3 heroes instead of two, and they're more restrictive than H3 when it came to what the hero classes can get. They're certainly more restrictive with the magic options because again, balance. The skills you pick also determine which "power" skill you'll have the option of upon reaching level 8. There is just less RNG overall. Tbh, I think they wanted to have players just pick the skills. It would work better with their game design but maybe they remembered the h7 fiasco. #RandomSKills
I know what you mean and I sympathize, but the problem with H3 is that the way things are working the might heroes always work better than the magic ones, because the might heroes CAN get magic skills AND have the better might stats. That was a lot better in HoMM 2 where you needed luck for a Barbarian to get Wisdom at all or early enough.
With HoMM 5 things were rather fixed as well in the magic department with just ONE hero type per faction.
Quote:
Gonna be nitpicky, the two on each end have one creature type for that stack size, being rats and dragons. The other 28 creatures fall between the 50-5 range. I wish there was more variety in the game as a whole.
I agree. There could be more variety and I expect to be more, when they start to refine things.
We'll see where that train rolls.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 14, 2022 09:36 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
I like SoC's additions. I like SoC's changes for the most part. What I don't like is the removal of so much variety and chance encounters and things that cause me to adjust my strategy.
What additions and removals? Is that SoC2? You compare to Heroes, Heroes is another franchise. I know you don't see it that way but that's what it is.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 14, 2022 11:55 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I don't think that is right. 10 levels are a lot of difference and research is pretty expensive. Research can't replace hero-levelling, but it's often a viable alternative to your best troop type.
I agree ten levels is a big difference, but in my experience, on many of the large maps the AI tends to prioritize research while also spreading themselves thin with multiple heroes. I see a decent amount of fights between heroes that do have a 10 or so level difference but the fights are not nearly as one sided as you'd think; if they are one sided, it is in favor of the side with more research, not the higher hero level. Arelon for example, can give 20 defense or offense to all their human troops for 15 celestial ore and less than 5k gold after building the research building. 5 ore costs only 3500 gold with one market btw.
This doesn’t happen all the time because the AI isn’t very good so it’s still easy to win a lot of the times. But still, the differences between a base level troop with no research and its upgrade with just a few points of research is insane. At least 20-30 more points in offence and defense. The bonuses are better than most artifacts, and certainly better than most hero skills and powers.
JollyJoker said:
I know what you mean and I sympathize, but the problem with H3 is that the way things are working the might heroes always work better than the magic ones, because the might heroes CAN get magic skills AND have the better might stats. That was a lot better in HoMM 2 where you needed luck for a Barbarian to get Wisdom at all or early enough.
With HoMM 5 things were rather fixed as well in the magic department with just ONE hero type per faction.
I forgot heroes 5 went back to one hero type per faction. Thats the best way to do it imo. They coulda taken notes in how H5 did hero specialties too. The boring static specialties of h6 and h7 were heavly criticized so it is strange to see them here. Ones that scale as the hero's level goes up could help with the progression.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 15, 2022 08:27 AM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
JollyJoker said:
I don't think that is right. 10 levels are a lot of difference and research is pretty expensive. Research can't replace hero-levelling, but it's often a viable alternative to your best troop type.
I agree ten levels is a big difference, but in my experience, on many of the large maps the AI tends to prioritize research while also spreading themselves thin with multiple heroes. I see a decent amount of fights between heroes that do have a 10 or so level difference but the fights are not nearly as one sided as you'd think; if they are one sided, it is in favor of the side with more research, not the higher hero level. Arelon for example, can give 20 defense or offense to all their human troops for 15 celestial ore and less than 5k gold after building the research building. 5 ore costs only 3500 gold with one market btw.
20 defense or offense are just TWO levels - and two levels give that bonus to ALL troops, not just to the human guys, so I still don't see your point here.
And your point about Homm 5 ONE hero type misses out on the predictability of their magic and their stats.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 15, 2022 02:56 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
20 defense or offense are just TWO levels - and two levels give that bonus to ALL troops, not just to the human guys, so I still don't see your point here.
And your point about Homm 5 ONE hero type misses out on the predictability of their magic and their stats.
You don’t seem to have much experience with their research mechanic. Which isn’t surprising because it’s hardly written anywhere, certainly not in the codex.
There is two research buildings, one for increasing individual stack limits and economy, while the other is for individual troop stat bonuses and stat bonuses by race. I was talking about the latter.
It clearly states there are “humans upgrades” and there are “Faey upgrades”, for arelon. As well as individual upgrades for each troop. There’s a lot of friggin upgrades.
The same goes for Rana and it’s races: Rana and beasts
Loth: undead and human
Barya: humans and harima
They all follow the same pattern.
And I was saying, for just 15 celestial ore you can put two levels into a racial upgrade and give all those troops +20 in offense or defense. And that’s just the start. These upgrades more than compensate for hero progress to the point where it’s hardly needed, was my point. I’m sure you disagree.
As for H5 I mean whatever. You seem argumentative at this point as you brought up that single hero classes is good way to do things then chastise me for agreeing lol. Good old HC.
Happy playing.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 15, 2022 03:17 PM |
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Err, in the context of this discussion, how is Quote:
With HoMM 5 things were rather fixed as well in the magic department with just ONE hero type per faction
positive sounding? Wasn't that the main point of criticism concerning magic? That the guilds gave out always the same spells?
Anyway, I KNOW how research works, and fact is that you can get +20 Offense with 2 hero levels and for all your troops, not just part of it. AND you can research stuff as well.
Still, isn't it a GOOD thing that a slightly inferior hero isn't automatically and necessarily losing the battle and that a very inferior hero may have other assets to put in front of you?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 15, 2022 04:48 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 18:44, 16 Jun 2022.
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Quote:
It clearly states there are “humans upgrades” and there are “Faey upgrades”, for arelon. As well as individual upgrades for each troop. There’s a lot of friggin upgrades.
The same goes for Rana and it’s races: Rana and beasts
Loth: undead and human
Barya: humans and harima
Too much humans for my taste, I only like Rana :v
H3 hardly had any human troops outside the Castle lineup.
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Never changing = never improving
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted June 15, 2022 08:55 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
I'm the kind of player that likes to react to maps and do the best with what I'm given, and playing that way here is what causes me to lose interest.
This is exactly the gameplay experience I went through before I stopped playing.
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