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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2022 12:21 PM |
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NimoStar said:
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The game you like is called HEROES of M&M, not CREATURES. OF COURSE the hero should (and does) define what happens, that's the whole point. Creatures are secondary
Sorry but no. The game might as well be called creatures of might and magic.
It isn't, though.
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What is more important for a faction, having warlocks or having Black Dragons and Mana Vortex?
Stupid question, really. As if that would shed a light on the issue. Why would you even be able to get them? Or do you get them on every map? What you do depends on the map and which heroes you have. You don't start with Black Dragons and you may not even get them and still need to win.
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Hero classes in H3 are seldom discussed at all. They just change some primary+secondary skill distributions.
Which makes a world of difference. Mind you, H3 is only one HoMM game, not the series.[
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"Wielder" classes in SoC seem even more ethereal in that they don't even have primary skills,
Wrong. They have primary skills. Offense, Defense, Viewing Range and Movement Range. Quote:
and don't really need to learn spells in a separate meaningful way.
That's also not true. If you insist on there being a MEANINGFUL way to learn spells, then they are spared to learn the tier 1 version, but still have to learn the MEANINGFUL tiers 2 and 3. The fact that what would be a smple "mana production" in HoMM is transferred from Heroes to creatures should actually give you shivers of pleasure with your creature fetish. Quote:
Also unlike Necromancy or Leadership there is not even faction aligned skills...
And thank the devs for that. I've never liked them and they've become worse with every iteration.
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So eben if you think the hero part is so wow there is not only less creature substance, there is also less hero substance as well.
That's just plain nonsense from someone who hasn't got a clue about a game he still talks about as if he had played it up and down.
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BTW Heroes4, 5 at least had barbarian factions which by design had no access to magic. So the heroes of might "AND MAGIC" you said is extremely biased as a justification to force you to use and consider magic as a core element for any and all playstyles. Even in H3 you can play without magic and the game experience will not be irremediably damaged.
HoMM 4 Barbarian, yes. It was probably worth a try. ut that doesn't mean you cannot play a game as Barbarian with Magic - you just need access to a different town. HoMM 5? Not so. They just had their separate, different spells. After all they had the same stats and used Mana for them. And from even before the ad-on - right from the start of HoMM 5 spellcasting was generalized as "using an active ability", Heroes being considered boring without actually being able to DO something, even if they didn't have any spells to cast. They simply got abilities to use, mana or not.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 10, 2022 05:34 PM |
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I got the game. It's fun but it doesn't have the same strategic depth as Heroes of might and magic 6, by far. It has potential but there are millions of games with potential that doesn't deliver in the end.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 10, 2022 07:55 PM |
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Uh oh, you just committed a sacrilege for a kot of people. Strategic depth in M&M Heroes 6? 
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 10, 2022 08:58 PM |
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The combat had a lot of strategic depth. Yeah, they removed most resources and we only had crystals, wood and ore. So what?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 10, 2022 09:07 PM |
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No, you got it all wrong. Combat is TACTICAL (depth). Strategy is about longer-term planning, like, what do you build, what are your targets on the map in which order and so on.
And you are wrong in both accounts. That magic system in SoC makes things a lot more interesting.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 11, 2022 12:14 AM |
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The spell system is nice but it hardly covers the gap in strategy. All it does is it changes the spells you can cast according to your army, which is basically always limited to your faction anyways. Doing some kind of mix only means you'll be able to cast some snow but snowflake spell very late in a fight once or maybe twice.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 11, 2022 07:07 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 11, 2022 05:26 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Quote:
The game you like is called HEROES of M&M, not CREATURES. OF COURSE the hero should (and does) define what happens, that's the whole point. Creatures are secondary
Sorry but no. The game might as well be called creatures of might and magic.
What is more important for a faction, having warlocks or having Black Dragons and Mana Vortex?
Hero classes in H3 are seldom discussed at all. They just change some primary+secondary skill distributions.
If we’re talking about H3, in a way, you’re both right. Which is more effective totally depends on the map. If you’re playing a small or medium map, creatures are what really matters. The bigger the map and the longer the game, the heroes become ultimately more decisive in which side wins though. Not only they start to give insane primary skill bonuses, like +15 to attack, having things like expert diplomacy, expert earth magic, expert air magic and adventure spells such as town portal or dimension door becomes much more decisive than having black dragons instead of behemoths.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted July 11, 2022 09:59 PM |
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I agree map size plays a big part.
My point was never that Heroes don't or shouldn't matter. They should complement other aspects of the game in an attempt to tilt the scales. Within H3, having expert air magic doesn't give you access to air spells just like picking archery doesn't just give you more ranged units. You still need to play with the creatures and spells you're given and strategize accordingly. The creatures are absolutely a main chunk of the game though. Heroes with +20 to all stats and every spell in the game are nothing without a decent enough creature army in comparison to their opponents. Resurrection and summons can make the initial army less important for sure, but there still needs to be one. Heroes 4 is the only exception to this. You can obviously use cheese tactics with walk on water and dimension door, etc. But there still needs to be a fight/taking of castles at some point. For most games.
The overall point being that the default creature pool is an important aspect to this type of game and SoC would do itself a favor by having less similarities between factions and the way their creatures handle. Each faction is basically given pawns and are expected to turn them into knights/Bishops/Queens based on what spells you cast on them in battle, research you invest in, and hero powers you pick. I'm exaggerating, but over time it starts to feel that way.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2022 09:05 AM |
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I haven't got the time for a lengthy debate here. I'll just say that HoMM 3 is NOT the gold standard of Heroes games for me. Not only are nearly half of the heroes crap (in pvp terms; in SP you can take each and every challenge, of course), magic is crap as well, reducing the game mostly to a speed/initiative contest abusing the wait command, skills are a mix of good and crappy ones and even creatures are crap because all factions have 7 once-upgradable creatures. STILL, the game was immensely fun, but there is a lot of clutter and a lot that could have been better, which is the reason why I haven't played the game anymore for many years.
When I have more time we can make a faction/creature comparison, though.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted July 12, 2022 09:34 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
HoMM 3 is NOT the gold standard of Heroes games for me.
which is?
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2022 09:50 AM |
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Both 2 and 5 are better for me (for a variety of reasons) and even 4 has some things going for it (I would have liked to see how that game would have shaped up without the problems 3do had).
I mean, it may be fun in Singleplayer to massacre the AI with Mass Haste/Slow and it may be fun as well to experience the rush of getting the spell somewhere, obtaining the skill and then being able to cast it - but come on. Think about what the spells do when we consider that beginning with the next game speed and initiave were different things. Allowing so powerful spells without Spellpower being even a factor is obviously a big sin.
In short - HoMM 3 could have been so much better.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 12, 2022 12:03 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
In short - HoMM 3 could have been so much better.
I agree with you there. Still, it's a lot to ask of a 23-year-old game that's still the most beloved from the series.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2022 12:45 PM |
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Well, I obviously don't ask it for a 23-year-old game - but I ask it for a new game. And SoC STARTS to deliver it (at version 0.76.1 it's not the full deal here, and HoMM 3 version 1.0 sucked a lot - anyone still remembering the infamous Gremlin Rush?)
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 05:53 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Both 2 and 5 are better for me
Seeing that you are approaching these games mostly from the PvP perspective, I'm curious why you prefer Heroes 2 over 3, given that 3 is much more balanced.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 07:51 AM |
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Why would you think that I approach this mostly from a PvP perspective?
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 08:28 AM |
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Because your harsh criticism of Heroes 3 in the comments above was delivered from a PvP perspective.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 09:10 AM |
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Not at all. I mostly played singleplayer, and I had a lot of fun with the game - as long as it lasted. But things became to repetitive. And the fun went to either small maps or maps specifically created for 1 singleplayer (and there were lots of good ones).
HoMM 2 is more charming (and as opposed to H3 I played the campaigns many times) and the pace is right. HoMM 3 feels like things were too blown in comparison, and some things really don't align anymore. HoMM 5 is the better 3 in many regards, but suffers from the ungainly editor, of course.
As an example, HoMM 3 ups creatures compared to HoMM 2 from 6 to 7 and every unit gets an upgrade. You might think more = good, but as an example, if you look at Castle, I see the following redundancies:
L1 - upgrade redundant
L2 - basic unit redundant (upgrade mandatory)
L5 - unit is completely redundant
L6 - upgrade redundant
Where the upgrade is "redundant" this simply means that it's unnecessary - you could just have one unit (with any mix of stats and abilities of the two).
You could call this "filler". HoMM 5 acknowledged that and made it better.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 11:34 AM |
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I follow your reasoning regarding the change from Heroes 2 to 3 - giving every unit an upgrade increases uniformity and adds filler. However, I don't understand how SoC doesn't suffer from the same problem, or how adding the second upgrade (Heroes 5) actually reduces filler.
Analysing each unit to decide whether it's redundant, or whether its upgrade is too big, too small, or just right, strikes me as very subjective. I would say that L4 and L7 Castle upgrades are also mandatory, and that L1 damage upgrade and L6 speed upgrade are significant. I would also disagree that L5 unit is completely redundant since it has a sizeable influence on Castle's combat strategy - whether to assault the enemy army or hang back and shoot.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 13, 2022 12:22 PM |
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The second upgrade isn't what HoMM 5 did better - they made the basic unit usable "as is" as well, plain to see, for example with Archers (with their area ability) and Gremlins (who can shoot quite fine).
For the L1 and L6 upgrades in HoMM3 I said, that a single unit is enough, with a mix of stat. I don't think that the speed upgrade justifies an "upgrade". For the L4 and L7 unit, yes, L4 has to come, but you can at least use the Swordmen in their basic form - the Angels as well, obviously, and the prohibitice cost of both upgrade and upgraded unit make them somewhat hard to get.
For the Monks, well. When I say they are redundant I mean they are offering nothing new - no melee penalty for the Zealots isn't all too great. They are just a boring unit that shoots, but can also melee attack and defend. Mages and Arch Mages are much better with their abilities (and HoMM 5's Inquisitors are better as well).
And hanging back or assaulting isn't a matter of your creatures, first and foremost - it's a matter of comparison between armies and heroes and whether you can support what you have with spells. If you attack a town the monks are pretty useless.
For SoC, the difference in upgrades are a lot bigger. For Example, Arleon Footmen have 15 HP and deal 2-5 damage. Shield of Order upgrade has 25 HPs and deals 4-7 damage. They also have a buffing ability and deliver one more essence. So the upgrade is WORTH it (although the Footmen are usable). Faey Ravager upgrade gains the Wait ability, a second attack and 2/3 of their basic unit's HP.
Redundancies in SoC? What would you suggest?
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This thread is pages long: 
