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Heroes Community > Other Games Exist Too > Thread: "Songs of conquest" Heroes-like game?
Thread: "Songs of conquest" Heroes-like game? This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV / NEXT»
Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted June 17, 2022 05:48 PM

My faith in this project has plummeted
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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted June 20, 2022 04:06 PM

One month of Early Access - What's going on right now?
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 21, 2022 01:47 AM

Points of the video:

- Key rebindings
- Sim turns

-> They will go on vacations
-> They will hire people for non-gameplay related roles

Yeah seems gameplay is pretty much "done" (or should I say "done for")
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Never changing = never improving

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted June 21, 2022 05:11 PM
Edited by The_Green_Drag at 17:34, 21 Jun 2022.

Yeah they’re basically done with it as far as gameplay goes. Feels like a bait and switch in many regards. They acted like going into EA for a year meant they’re continuing to develop when they’re just adding content like campaigns, more similar playing factions, and neutrals you cannot recruit. These might as well be free updates to a fully released game.

Here is their top considerations “by vote”

Over a thousand upvotes to something as vague as “make factions more asymmetrical”, and they won’t even consider it
No unique buildings, majority of abilities being re-used, very similar faction concepts in terms of cost design. This is how they want it.

Despite their over emphasis on it being a “single player” game, it clearly priorities multiplayer and the single player is on the back burner. The game’s super safe build with boring unit abilities and spells that feel like placeholders is here to stay because it’s fast and easy to keep balanced! What a joke.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 21, 2022 07:58 PM

Aren't you overreacting?

I mean, what does "asymmetrical" REALLY mean? I don't think you want to play a game in which the "asymmetry" decides the game and everything else is secondary. Like ... Necromancy. Or, in fact, ANY single "faction ability" - you don't want everything else to be just ornamental and the only decisive thing being that ability.

So - make factions more asymmetrical doesn't actually mean ANYTHING. And while I'm all for it, the real question is actually, HOW to do that.

That's why I suggested something myself (which is still awaiting approval): Make a 4th Large Building, the Magic Academy. Among other things this would introduce 20 new spells that need THREE different essences to cast (two spells for each triple combo), and since every faction üroduces three typical essences, this would amount to producing two faction-specific spells for a small step to more asymmetry.

Considering that this game is in development for fivey years now, I think that it will take considerable time still to reach version 1.00. I'd guess a year at least. That is a lot of time.


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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 22, 2022 01:14 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:18, 22 Jun 2022.

The inability to do *anything* with extra artifacts seems like a big downgrade from h3 (and even h4, where at least you could give them to weaker heroes and still have them in your "party"), and they won't consider artifact selling either even though this is quite easy to program.

In addition, am I the only one that thinks it is weird for them to want to hire a chief art designer *after* all the art is already done? Strange.
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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted June 22, 2022 01:15 AM

I wouldn't have summed it up with "more asymmetry" myself, but it works well enough and I like the OP's description of wanting unique options when picking a different faction. Its vague enough while giving some examples and comparisons. Labeling it as "considered" seems like am easy bone to throw at a crowd of 1k+ people who feel this way if they have any unique minor or major changes coming to the factions.

The "How to" was a talking point with many of the other active members in the alpha. It was mostly agreed, me included, that faction skills are not worth it because they're usually a must have on your hero. But it was also agreed that things like unique research and buildings have a lot of room for creativity, especially given their town construction mechanics. Barya for example, is a trades faction that is built by merchants, mercenaries and inventors; they could easily have unique research related to economy and market exchange rates, maybe their own artifact dealer building, or more levels to their research considering advanced development like gunpowder is their trademark. Barya units as a whole could be slow burners for the most part and have higher late game potential.

I'm just spit balling here but there is plenty of room to be creative. A fourth large building required for late game spells sounds dope, but at the same time, 20 more spells would be near impossible for these devs to come up with because of all their limitations. They don't want healing, resurrection, any form of bless, curse, dispel, summoning, no adventure map spells, no unique target spells (like death ripple), or anything else that sounds fun.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted June 22, 2022 01:39 AM

The_Green_Drag said:
no adventure map spells


lol
/thread over



/game over
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Groovy
Groovy


Hired Hero
posted June 22, 2022 05:39 AM

The_Green_Drag said:
They don't want healing, resurrection, any form of bless, curse, dispel, summoning, no adventure map spells, no unique target spells (like death ripple), or anything else that sounds fun.

Combined with no mixing of factions, the game design certainly has a lot of self-imposed limitations that feel unnecessary to me.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 22, 2022 08:24 AM

yogi said:
The_Green_Drag said:
no adventure map spells

lol
/thread over

/game over

Except that adventure spells are unnecessary and even counter-productive the way the game is set up with heroes being able to carry LIMITED forces only.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 22, 2022 08:35 AM

The_Green_Drag said:

I'm just spit balling here but there is plenty of room to be creative. A fourth large building required for late game spells sounds dope, but at the same time, 20 more spells would be near impossible for these devs to come up with because of all their limitations. They don't want healing, resurrection, any form of bless, curse, dispel, summoning, no adventure map spells, no unique target spells (like death ripple), or anything else that sounds fun.

No Dispel is good. Everything UNDOING stuff is not good. That includes "Resurrection" - but not something like "Waking the Dead" which might summon Reavers from fallen units.

The way these devs go about stuff is pretty commendable. Solid foundation first, then adding the fancy stuff. Having the fancy stuff in from the start and then having a game that isn't balancable anymore makes no sense with all the experience made.

Keep in mind that the best "balance-checker" is pvp play. RMG and Sim-Turns should make sure a lot of that.

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Groovy
Groovy


Hired Hero
posted June 22, 2022 06:22 PM
Edited by Groovy at 18:29, 22 Jun 2022.

JollyJoker said:
The way these devs go about stuff is pretty commendable. Solid foundation first, then adding the fancy stuff. Having the fancy stuff in from the start and then having a game that isn't balancable anymore makes no sense with all the experience made.

I think it comes down to you liking the game as it is and me finding it lacking. This results in you seeing these addons as fancy stuff that can wait or be done without, while I see them as essential to make the game worth playing.

I would have liked to see each faction play radically differently from the others, but this is not something that can be added towards the end of development.

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted June 22, 2022 08:27 PM

Groovy said:

I think it comes down to you liking the game as it is and me finding it lacking. This results in you seeing these addons as fancy stuff that can wait or be done without, while I see them as essential to make the game worth playing.

I would have liked to see each faction play radically differently from the others, but this is not something that can be added towards the end of development.


This is basically how I feel about it. The fancy stuff was that other 25% that I thought they would work on in EA. But it seems like they're fine with the game as-is for the most part. With things like new factions and campaigns being made, I find it unlikely the factions will see much change at all. I would think a campaign for a faction would have to be re-evaluated if said faction undergoes any changes or additions.

We already have the full rana campaign and that faction feels like its full of placeholders. They just re-use all the auras in the game, some of them multiple times.

And again, this was always advertised as a single player game. That truly seems like just a scummy marketing strategy now. Sim turns has higher priority than the AI which is still very below par.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 23, 2022 03:42 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:49, 23 Jun 2022.

Quote:
Except that adventure spells are unnecessary and even counter-productive the way the game is set up with heroes being able to carry LIMITED forces only.


That doesn't even begin to make sense.

Forces are limited -> Yu can't cast spells from the adventure map.

Like, wut?

Casting from the adventure mp is completely divorced from how many forces you have.

Hell, H4 casts and potions on the adventure map are mostly about heroes buffing only themselves, even if they have no army at all.

The SoC design philosophy of not doing anything that might, in any potential universe, slightly tilt the least bit of "balance", can be soundly summed up by this picture:

Caption in case it inevitably breaks: "NO FUN ALLOWED"

Turn-based RPG Adventure Strategy games is not about making the next "chess". You need a fun and varied game even before thinking about "Balance". Not the opposite. If your game is balanced but unfun to the core audience and falls below in all expectations of variety, and has a long series of arbitrary "NOT EVER" features, you have failed to make a sucessful game at all. Well, perhaps as a minimalistic PvP it can work, but not as a full blown, interesting SP adventure...

Starcraft II for example has plenty of more faction assymetry, weird possibilities and varied effects for spells (including temporary summoning, buffs and debuffs amongst others) and it is pretty much as balanced as SoC could ever expect to be.
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Never changing = never improving

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 23, 2022 07:23 AM

You'd come over a bit less as a religious fanatic if you had actually played the game before engaging on a crusade based on hearsay and empty paroles.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 23, 2022 10:45 AM

I genuinely do not understand what is going on. This game clearly doesn't deserves the bashing it is getting here.
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Groovy
Groovy


Hired Hero
posted June 23, 2022 11:52 AM

I would have agreed with you while I was still playing the game.

Unfortunately, after playing 15 or so times, mostly enjoying it, and thinking that the devs have made a decent attempt, I just can't bring myself to play it again. I wouldn't say that it's a bad game, and I do like some of the changes that the devs have made, but the fact that it already feels like a chore has certainly put a damper on my earlier impression.

It's not a popular genre these days, so perhaps it's just disappointment after thinking what could have been, not knowing how long it will be before another candidate comes along.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 23, 2022 09:43 PM

Quote:
actually played the game


many people have actually played and their experience lines up from what I think from the features described (or lack thereof). Also religious fanatics are for someting, not against something
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 23, 2022 10:13 PM

I have serious difficulties to decide which part of your post is more absurd.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 24, 2022 12:41 AM
Edited by artu at 00:41, 24 Jun 2022.

NimoStar said:
Also religious fanatics are for someting, not against something

They are for something which results in them being strictly against other things, devoted Catholics being strictly against abortion for instance, hence his anology.
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